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Author Topic: Pools with fee's vs p2pool...  (Read 2391 times)
PCMiner
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May 23, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
 #1

In my head what I'm about to explain sounds correct, but I'm posting here as I'm willing to admit often I am wrong and want to be sure...


So as great as P2pool is for it's decentralized nature and all that, the many small payments (and variance if you have a low hashrate) can be annoying at times.   Also it seems no matter what p2pool node I run on I will see, over time (a week or so) an average of between 80-90% efficiency of submitted shares. (without using add ons to your address to only submit higher dif shares).

I see a much better accepted rate on pools with fees (averaging 95% on my LTC CPU miners, and over 99% for stratum GPU mining).  [Before you yell at me for CPU mining I have free power and CPU's to spare.]

So while there might be no fee on a p2pool node, it's still more efficient to mine on a pool with a fee that has a higher overall accepted percentage? 

95% accepted with a 2% fee is still better then no fee and 85%(avg) accepted, or am I wrong here.

I await your mocking comments and being called dumb, but thanks in advance.

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May 23, 2013, 10:31:01 PM
 #2

By the way, by default, p2pool has a 1% fee. This is actually a donation to the software author though so not quite the same thing. However you can disable it... but this is unrelated to your question.

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May 23, 2013, 11:30:58 PM
 #3

In my head what I'm about to explain sounds correct, but I'm posting here as I'm willing to admit often I am wrong and want to be sure...


So as great as P2pool is for it's decentralized nature and all that, the many small payments (and variance if you have a low hashrate) can be annoying at times.   Also it seems no matter what p2pool node I run on I will see, over time (a week or so) an average of between 80-90% efficiency of submitted shares. (without using add ons to your address to only submit higher dif shares).

I see a much better accepted rate on pools with fees (averaging 95% on my LTC CPU miners, and over 99% for stratum GPU mining).  [Before you yell at me for CPU mining I have free power and CPU's to spare.]

So while there might be no fee on a p2pool node, it's still more efficient to mine on a pool with a fee that has a higher overall accepted percentage? 

95% accepted with a 2% fee is still better then no fee and 85%(avg) accepted, or am I wrong here.

I await your mocking comments and being called dumb, but thanks in advance.



P2Pool runs on the PPLNS reward. If P2pool has a high hashrate and they find blocks all the time the payment will be more or less the same as a pool.


 
 
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PCMiner
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May 23, 2013, 11:42:05 PM
 #4

P2Pool runs on the PPLNS reward. If P2pool has a high hashrate and they find blocks all the time the payment will be more or less the same as a pool.

Yes yes this part I am well aware of.  But regardless you are only paid for accepted shares, which is what my question is about.  If the pool (p2pool or another like bitminter etc) only pays on accepted shares then isn't a pool with a higher accepted amount going to pay out that much more?  I know with p2pool, even though you may submit a ton of shares you only get paid for.. how to explain this, shares that are above a certain level... I can't really verbalize that but even though I may submit many shares I only know certain ones above a threshold (in p2pool) will actually get me payout.  (Why you add +xxx to the end of your address to cut down on useless shares at the expense of lowering hashrate reporting accuracy on your p2pool site).

If only 85% of my accepted shares are useful, is the 15% that aren't causing a reduction in my possible payout over a pool that accepts 95% but then takes it's 2% cut?

I may be way off here, but hopefully the question I'm trying to ask can be gleaned from my ramblings.

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May 24, 2013, 01:37:18 AM
 #5

P2Pool runs on the PPLNS reward. If P2pool has a high hashrate and they find blocks all the time the payment will be more or less the same as a pool.

Yes yes this part I am well aware of.  But regardless you are only paid for accepted shares, which is what my question is about.  If the pool (p2pool or another like bitminter etc) only pays on accepted shares then isn't a pool with a higher accepted amount going to pay out that much more?  I know with p2pool, even though you may submit a ton of shares you only get paid for.. how to explain this, shares that are above a certain level... I can't really verbalize that but even though I may submit many shares I only know certain ones above a threshold (in p2pool) will actually get me payout.  (Why you add +xxx to the end of your address to cut down on useless shares at the expense of lowering hashrate reporting accuracy on your p2pool site).

If only 85% of my accepted shares are useful, is the 15% that aren't causing a reduction in my possible payout over a pool that accepts 95% but then takes it's 2% cut?

I may be way off here, but hopefully the question I'm trying to ask can be gleaned from my ramblings.



Because of P2Pool's...p2p nature, the reject rates are higher than you will see on any pool.  It's just the way it works due to the share chain which moves 60 times faster than the bitcoin block chain.  However, this high reject rate affects all users.  This means your real goal is to have your reject rate equal to or lower than most other users.

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May 24, 2013, 06:13:10 AM
 #6

Because of P2Pool's...p2p nature, the reject rates are higher than you will see on any pool.  It's just the way it works due to the share chain which moves 60 times faster than the bitcoin block chain.  However, this high reject rate affects all users.  This means your real goal is to have your reject rate equal to or lower than most other users.

OK, so my logic was correct then.   A pool that gives you a lower reject rate, over a long period of time, will provide a better income then a pool that gives you a higher reject percentage.    Basically p2pool with it's 15-20% reject rate is worse then any pool (fee or no fee) that gives you 5% or lower rejects.  1Ghps on p2pool will provide a lower payout (averaged over a few months) then the same put on a fee pool. (if the fee is 5% or lower and your reject rate is only 1-3% roughly)

Should also note I'm not complaining about the reject rate of p2pool, I get that it's higher because of the nature of how it works, I'm just trying to sort out how the percentages of rejected shares affect a miners profit.
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May 24, 2013, 11:27:27 AM
 #7

if p2pool found the block, then p2pool income > pool about 200%
but p2pool can not found the block everyday,
it's found nothing in 3 days in my memory.
so long time....
eleuthria
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May 24, 2013, 11:13:10 PM
 #8

Because of P2Pool's...p2p nature, the reject rates are higher than you will see on any pool.  It's just the way it works due to the share chain which moves 60 times faster than the bitcoin block chain.  However, this high reject rate affects all users.  This means your real goal is to have your reject rate equal to or lower than most other users.

OK, so my logic was correct then.   A pool that gives you a lower reject rate, over a long period of time, will provide a better income then a pool that gives you a higher reject percentage.    Basically p2pool with it's 15-20% reject rate is worse then any pool (fee or no fee) that gives you 5% or lower rejects.  1Ghps on p2pool will provide a lower payout (averaged over a few months) then the same put on a fee pool. (if the fee is 5% or lower and your reject rate is only 1-3% roughly)

Should also note I'm not complaining about the reject rate of p2pool, I get that it's higher because of the nature of how it works, I'm just trying to sort out how the percentages of rejected shares affect a miners profit.

Actually, I was saying your logic was incorrect.  Because of how p2pool works, it's less about your absolute reject rate (15%) and more about your relative reject % compared to others in the pool.  If everybody was having the same reject rate as you, you *should* earn the same as you would on a pool with a 0% reject rate.  However, I think 15% is probably way too high even for p2pool (I have never mined on p2pool, so i can't comment on what a "good" reject rate is).

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May 25, 2013, 01:27:03 PM
 #9

Because of P2Pool's...p2p nature, the reject rates are higher than you will see on any pool.  It's just the way it works due to the share chain which moves 60 times faster than the bitcoin block chain.  However, this high reject rate affects all users.  This means your real goal is to have your reject rate equal to or lower than most other users.

OK, so my logic was correct then.   A pool that gives you a lower reject rate, over a long period of time, will provide a better income then a pool that gives you a higher reject percentage.    Basically p2pool with it's 15-20% reject rate is worse then any pool (fee or no fee) that gives you 5% or lower rejects.  1Ghps on p2pool will provide a lower payout (averaged over a few months) then the same put on a fee pool. (if the fee is 5% or lower and your reject rate is only 1-3% roughly)

Should also note I'm not complaining about the reject rate of p2pool, I get that it's higher because of the nature of how it works, I'm just trying to sort out how the percentages of rejected shares affect a miners profit.

Actually, I was saying your logic was incorrect.  Because of how p2pool works, it's less about your absolute reject rate (15%) and more about your relative reject % compared to others in the pool.  If everybody was having the same reject rate as you, you *should* earn the same as you would on a pool with a 0% reject rate.  However, I think 15% is probably way too high even for p2pool (I have never mined on p2pool, so i can't comment on what a "good" reject rate is).
I can have near 0% reject rate mining on my home computer, but the difference is just made up in more orphans.

If you have a high DOA and a high orphan rate, then you have a problem.

15% DOA and something like 2-5% orphans should be around 100% efficiency, so not too bad. 

re: p2pool paying less.. well, it depends on the fees of the other pool.  i guess with 98% efficiency you'd still be getting more than on most pools.  below that, probably not

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May 25, 2013, 05:55:57 PM
 #10

If only 85% of my accepted shares are useful, is the 15% that aren't causing a reduction in my possible payout over a pool that accepts 95% but then takes it's 2% cut?

p2pool shares and other pools shares are not the same, p2pool will have 10-30% stale shares and still be healthy without hurting your payouts.

It's been stated many times in this thread, but to be clear: the 15% rejects you are seeing are not wasted work and can solve a block. It's also possible that it does not reduce your payout.

p2pool works differently than any other pool. Rather than look at your DOA/STALE/ORPHAN rates, you have to compare "Efficiency" rates (on your console output and web interface). If you have 20% p2pool stales, you may have 100% efficiency - which is the number that counts.

So again, when comparing pools, don't look at p2pool stale rate, look at p2pool "Efficiency" (because p2pool stales are not the same as any other pool stales).
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May 26, 2013, 08:16:28 PM
 #11

The issue with p2pools for small miners is the tx costs for all the dust you get each hour

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May 27, 2013, 08:15:27 AM
 #12

The issue with p2pools for small miners is the tx costs for all the dust you get each hour

oh, yeah, the OP is talking about litecoins

so, yeah, litecoin fees are 1000x higher than bitcoin fees, MIN_TX_FEE = 10000000 vs MIN_TX_FEE = 10000

it has priority transactions too, not quite sure how it figures them out since i don't really mess with litecoins, but it looks like it only applies to the first 500 bytes of transactions in each block?  lol

Dacentec Dedicated Servers (Lenoir, NC, USA) from $25/mo & Time4VPS Storage VPS' (Vilnius, Lithuania) from €18/qtr & Hetzner's serverbidding, from ~€20/mo -- had bitcoin nodes & p2pool (dacentec, hetzner) for several years on these.  Only two are affiliate links too, kek! -------  Feel free to join my G2A Goldmine Pyramid Scheme Team, or possibly even buy a Steam game from there.  Maybe.
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