Bitcoin7 - Official letter, following first week of operation

[DamienBlack]

@ DamienBlack

We have deactivated already some of these spammers.
For some of them we have at least removed the referral IDs of the users who complained they didn't get anything.
We even had cases where it was not a scam and some BTCs have been exchanged.

If you have been scammed please let us know the exact details at info@bitcoin7.com and we will act accordingly and immediately.

I have not seen a single case where I can find a payment or the stated value in the block explorer. Simply removing referral IDs of the users who complain make it so that both the scammer, and you, continue to benefit from these threads, since not everyone will complain.

I want to see you put your foot down firmly. You guys are the main beneficiary of these scam threads, so if you don't make it clear and public policy that anyone who commits these types of scams is going to have their commission privileges 100% revoked, then I consider you responsible for these thread. As long as that is the case I will never consider signing up with you. Which is a shame, because I want to see more exchanges succeed.

[1714006861]

1714006861

[1714006861]

1714006861

[1714006861]

1714006861

[1714006861]

1714006861

[1714006861]

1714006861

[1714006861]

1714006861

[walidzohair]

Great post .. and a great site

[finnthecelt]

@ DamienBlack



I want to see you put your foot down firmly. You guys are the main beneficiary of these scam threads, so if you don't make it clear and public policy that anyone who commits these types of scams is going to have their commission privileges 100% revoked, then I consider you responsible for these thread. As long as that is the case I will never consider signing up with you. Which is a shame, because I want to see more exchanges succeed.

That's not fair at all. They can't stop people from doing this! Yes they can pull their commissions but they have to be informed of it and they have just stated that they will investigate all reports.

Some guy in the world wants to deceive people and you are going to blame B7 for any thread that arises from here on out? So while they're out to breakfast and having a coffee and some guy at his computer terminal concocts some plan to deceive others the B7 team is responsible?!?

[DamienBlack]

@ DamienBlack



I want to see you put your foot down firmly. You guys are the main beneficiary of these scam threads, so if you don't make it clear and public policy that anyone who commits these types of scams is going to have their commission privileges 100% revoked, then I consider you responsible for these thread. As long as that is the case I will never consider signing up with you. Which is a shame, because I want to see more exchanges succeed.

That's not fair at all. They can't stop people from doing this! Yes they can pull their commissions but they have to be informed of it and they have just stated that they will investigate all reports.

Some guy in the world wants to deceive people and you are going to blame B7 for any thread that arises from here on out? So while they're out to breakfast and having a coffee and some guy at his computer terminal concocts some plan to deceive others the B7 team is responsible?!?

How old are you? Perhaps you are feeling a little jaded still since your childhood when you learned that the Easter Bunny and Santa weren't real and now you are hypersensitive to a con....?

Tradehill has been very proactive in making it very clear that their policy is to disable commission on any account that scams or spams. This has significantly reduced both because the scammers/spammers have no incentive. They know that if they spam, their commission will be taken away from them.

Bitcoin7 has been less clear that scammers and spammers will be treated like they should, and that is why they continue to crop up. In the meantime, bitcoins7s lack of strict enforcement is benefiting them as they continue to get users signing up because of these scams. Bitcoin7 has the responsibility to do everything in its power to discourage scammers. If they don't, then I don't see the difference between them and the scammer, because they are effectively encouraging it.

[DrYe5]

My browsers are choking on security issues when I try to log into bitcoin7.

[finnthecelt]

@ DamienBlack



I want to see you put your foot down firmly. You guys are the main beneficiary of these scam threads, so if you don't make it clear and public policy that anyone who commits these types of scams is going to have their commission privileges 100% revoked, then I consider you responsible for these thread. As long as that is the case I will never consider signing up with you. Which is a shame, because I want to see more exchanges succeed.

That's not fair at all. They can't stop people from doing this! Yes they can pull their commissions but they have to be informed of it and they have just stated that they will investigate all reports.

Some guy in the world wants to deceive people and you are going to blame B7 for any thread that arises from here on out? So while they're out to breakfast and having a coffee and some guy at his computer terminal concocts some plan to deceive others the B7 team is responsible?!?

How old are you? Perhaps you are feeling a little jaded still since your childhood when you learned that the Easter Bunny and Santa weren't real and now you are hypersensitive to a con....?

Tradehill has been very proactive in making it very clear that their policy is to disable commission on any account that scams or spams. This has significantly reduced both because the scammers/spammers have no incentive. They know that if they spam, their commission will be taken away from them.

Bitcoin7 has been less clear that scammers and spammers will be treated like they should, and that is why they continue to crop up. In the meantime, bitcoins7s lack of strict enforcement is benefiting them as they continue to get users signing up because of these scams. Bitcoin7 has the responsibility to do everything in its power to discourage scammers. If they don't, then I don't see the difference between them and the scammer, because they are effectively encouraging it.

From Chris: @ DamienBlack

"We have deactivated already some of these spammers.
For some of them we have at least removed the referral IDs of the users who complained they didn't get anything.
We even had cases where it was not a scam and some BTCs have been exchanged.

If you have been scammed please let us know the exact details at info@bitcoin7.com and we will act accordingly and immediately."


Your logic is flawed and I'll not address you again.

[DamienBlack]

We have deactivated already some of these spammers.

That isn't enough. I would like them to be more proactive in making it clear that this will always be the consequence. Make it public policy that any spammers/scammers will have their accounts deactivated. Put it front and center at the page where you get your referral link. Make a thread denouncing the scammers and let everyone know that the penalty is deactivations

For some of them we have at least removed the referral IDs of the users who complained they didn't get anything.

This one bothers me the most. People have complained of being scammed and all you have done if remove the referral of the person that complained? If a user has scammed someone, all their referrals should be removed.

We even had cases where it was not a scam and some BTCs have been exchanged.

I don't buy this for one second. I have checked the addresses of everyone who has asked to get paid and none of them have been. And furthermore, how would you (bitcoin7) know that? Someone contacted you and said "BTW I did get paid by this referral"? And then you believe this? This sound to me like you are actually trying to give the scammers credibility. Sound really shady to me that you would do that.

If you have been scammed please let us know the exact details at info@bitcoin7.com and we will act accordingly and immediately

Being reactive isn't enough. Given all the scamming that has happened, I want proactive.

Your logic is flawed and I'll not address you again.

Fine, I don't want a response from you. I want action from bitcoin7.

[Nescio]

I don't buy this for one second. I have checked the addresses of everyone who has asked to get paid and none of them have been. And furthermore, how would you (bitcoin7) know that? Someone contacted you and said "BTW I did get paid by this referral"? And then you believe this? This sound to me like you are actually trying to give the scammers credibility. Sound really shady to me that you would do that.

This is what I meant by ethics. It seems clear they will not do anything against it as long as it's in their interest, and apparently don't mind lying about it, or at least being extremely cavalier about fraud.

[jkminkov]

you, damn trolls, if you knew it was a scam DON'T use that account, sent a note to delete your account and create another.

if b7 staff deletes some refferals without proof, because some troll said they should, they become scammers themselves

[Horkabork]

you, damn trolls, if you knew it was a scam DON'T use that account, sent a note to delete your account and create another.

if b7 staff deletes some refferals without proof, because some troll said they should, they become scammers themselves

Can you please elaborate on this? I'm trying to wrap my head around you thinking that calling spammers spammers is being a troll.

[BitcoinPorn]

What security benefits does Bitcoin7 feel they have over the markets that make it the site I should use?

I support many markets, and have not joined Bitcoin7 because of such forum based negativity, I would argue that the strategy of ignoring the spammers that are spamming in your name, is not a great strategy, but I won't allow this to think ill of the site if it provides better function and security that what is available, is that what you offer?

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

7. Did you really started with ripped-off texts from another website?
As shameful and painful as it is we have to admit our guilt here. We contracted copywriters to assist us with the content of the website. We didn't check the validity and originality of the texts and we ended having a great designed website with stolen texts... We have been working on that since we learned about it. Most of the texts have been rewritten, the rest are being finished as we write this topic. I hope you even the original creators of the texts will understand us - it's not logical to create a new service, much more beautiful and useful in terms of UI than the current alternatives, to translate it on 20 languages .... and to have non-original texts (it really doesn't make any sense). This is a fault we admit as well. I hope our fast reaction on this topic will return your fate in us.

Dear Bitcion7,

As many people have already noticed, your firm has admittedly plagiarized the text (and more) from Tradehill's website.

We pointed this out in the above posts and asked you to change the text several times. You have been apologetic and explanatory but have not remedied the situation. It has been two weeks since we've made multiple requests and less then 1% of the text has been changed. We understand it takes time to change a site but you have not taken any steps yet. Additionally, you've made plenty of time for marketing your company via lengthy forum posts and updates.   

It is also very coincidental that your site came on-line 4 days after ours, with the exact same text, same layout, same features (like instant buy/sell), offering referral codes.  We have spent time and resources on developing our own website and ideas – please respect our intellectual property and remove the text immediately.

The text on Tradehill's website under “Introduction”, “Add Funds”, “Withdraw Funds”, “Support”, “Deposit Funds” and more, has been directly plagiarized by Bitcoin7 under – coincidentally – the exact same titles of “Introduction”, “Add Funds”, “Withdraw Funds”, “Support”, “Deposit Funds”.

See below - just some - of the exact plagiarisms which currently remain (at least up until the dating of this post).



TRADEHILL:

Under “Legal” and “Terms of Use”

Proprietary Rights
All contents of the TradeHill website, including, but not limited to, text, names, data, logos, buttons, icons, code, methods, techniques, models, graphics and the underlying software (the “Components”), are proprietary of TradeHill and are protected by the patent, copyright, trademark and trade laws of Chile and/or other countries. Nothing contained in this website shall be used in any form unless expressly stated by TradeHill.

https://www.tradehill.com/Support/Legal

BITCOIN7:

Proprietary Rights
All contents of the Bitcoin7 website, including, but not limited to, text, names, data, logos, buttons, icons, code, methods, techniques, models, graphics and the underlying software (the "Components"), are proprietary of Bitcoin7 and are protected by the patent, copyright, trademark and trade laws of Bulgaria and/or other countries. Nothing contained in this website shall be used in any form unless expressly stated by Bitcoin7.




TRADEHILL:

Under “Legal” and “Terms of Use”

Changes to Website
TradeHill will always attempt to keep its users informed of any changes to the website. However, TradeHill may terminate, change, suspend or discontinue any aspect of this website, including the availability of features of the site, at any time. TradeHill may also impose limits on certain features and services or restrict your access to part or the entire website without prior notice or liability.

https://www.tradehill.com/Support/Legal

BITCOIN7:

Under “Legal” and “Terms of Use”


Changes to Website
Bitcoin7 will always attempt to keep its users informed of any changes to the website. However, Bitcoin7 may terminate, change, suspend or discontinue any aspect of this website, including the availability of features of the site, at any time. Bitcoin7 may also impose limits on certain features and services or restrict your access to part or the entire website without prior notice or liability.

[Chris (Bitcoin7.com)]

Jered,

As you have already seen from the post we acknowledged that fact. It is true, it's shame, I would have never approved such business ethic if I knew before the start.

You should agree that it seems very strange to create 10x better looking site than Tradehill (no offense) and steal your texts, thus ruining the whole originality of the product. We got scammed by the copywriters we hired. We have been working on this issue from the start (from your post once I understood this was really the situation). Most of the big pages are already re-written (FAQ, How it works etc).

The Trading pages won't be rewritten as strings like "Highest Bid" or "Highest Ask" are not exactly a copywrite of you.

About the Terms and Conditions, we are updating them as we speak but they need to be communicated in the right way with the users. Also with a similarity google search it becomes clear that you haven't been so original here as well...

MOST IMPORTANT WHICH SHOULD MATTER FOR US AND THE USERS:
----------------------------------------------------
We are constantly evolving the functionality and the service of the site.
- I am sure there will be nobody complaining for a withdraw/add funds transaction delayed for more than 8h (the majority is being executed with 1h)
- We are the first exchange to add personal security certificates securing the single login on 1 machines
- We have published the AML policy we are currently following, thus ensuring better understanding of the Bitcoin and its "white nature": https://bitcoin7.com/index.php?show=aml
- We have presented our selves with full names and information about our previous businesses. We have also done that on the page: https://bitcoin7.com/index.php?show=imprint   -> Everyone is welcome to do a double check on the validity of the data. We aim to be clear, clean and 100% transparent as we know this is most important for anyone when sending money or BTC.

So please stop spaming the topic with actions about scamming referals or non-originality. Since our start we are doing more than 50 changes on texts, UI elements, procedures, security, funding etc in order to present better functionality and service.
-----------------------------------------------------

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

You should agree that it seems very strange to create 10x better looking site than Tradehill (no offense) and steal your texts, thus ruining the whole originality of the product. We got scammed by the copywriters we hired. We have been working on this issue from the start (from your post once I understood this was really the situation). Most of the big pages are already re-written (FAQ, How it works etc).

The Trading pages won't be rewritten as strings like "Highest Bid" or "Highest Ask" are not exactly a copywrite of you.

Chris,

First, most of the big pages have not been rewritten. We have been monitoring your site and you have made less than 1% changes in the text over two weeks.

Its hard for us to believe that you never once looked at our site before you launched. Especially considering the number of non-text features that are also exactly like ours. Things such as instant buy/sell, referral program, partnership program, etc (the descriptions of which have also been plagiarized). Creating instant buy/sell functionality are not items that 'just outsourced copywriters' have control over.

Further, hiring such copywriters doesn't alleviate your firm of the duty to ensure quality; especially with glaring misrepresentations like "Registered under the laws governing the nation of Chile" (Tradehill is based in Chile and the US and is run by Americans and Chileans living in both).None of your staff (if you have one) looked at the site beforehand and realized that you were not in fact in Chile - but rather Bulgaria ? Moreover, your lack of quality assurance doesn't exempt you from legal liabilities either.

We asked more then once for you to take it down - yet, you did not - hence this post. If you had taken it down, this post would not exist.

In great dismay, I must also inform you, that while I was writing this response, I was PM'd by someone who claims you had full knowledge this occurred.

No matter how spiffy your site looks, you clearly do not understand that security of intellectual property is equally important as the security of peoples money, assets, and property.

Buyer beware!

[davout]

TradeHill may also impose limits on certain features and services or restrict your access to part or the entire website without prior notice or liability.

@Jered Kenna : I wouldn't really insist on this one if I was you, thanks for bringing it to my attention...

[Chris (Bitcoin7.com)]

Jered,

I guess the users will decide, after all, based on the the quality, availability, security, functionality and service conditions.
It should be this way anyway.

I PMed you for our openness for potential cooperation and communication, it's now obvious that such could not occur.


P.S. 1% similarity, obvious and logical features like Instant Buy/Sell and someone PMed you is nothing exact I would say. I claim exactly the opposite. Anyway, I wonder when we will see some of our features and benefits copied on your interface it is all part of the game

[3phase]

Directed to both sides (Tradehill and Bitcoin7):

Having read both sides, I would be hesitant to go either with Tradehill or Bitcoin7.

People who try to prove something about OTHERS on a public forum instead of relying on proving THEMSELVES and their own INTEGRITY through their work and their business, do not seem attractive to me to say the least.

I understand it's competition and there's money involved, but I wouldn't trust my money with someone that goes out of their way to convince me that someone ELSE is NOT trustworthy, unless if I had asked them to give their opinion.

In my view this discussion downplays both of you, and for the sake of your business and the Bitcoin community I would humbly suggest that you refrain from it, and try to promote your exchange in a positive way instead of going with negative comments on competitors. This means not interfering on each other's threads.

I don't even mention the Referral spamming which is getting to be a burden.

I'm not using an exchange yet, but if I need one in the future, I will look for someone who is decent and honourable from start (their 1st post) to finish.

This is written with all respect due to your efforts, which I believe are well intended to start with. And I sincerely hope that we will have many good competing exchanges in the future.

[finnthecelt]

Directed to both sides (Tradehill and Bitcoin7):

Having read both sides, I would be hesitant to go either with Tradehill or Bitcoin7.

People who try to prove something about OTHERS on a public forum instead of relying on proving THEMSELVES and their own INTEGRITY through their work and their business, do not seem attractive to me to say the least.

I understand it's competition and there's money involved, but I wouldn't trust my money with someone that goes out of their way to convince me that someone ELSE is NOT trustworthy, unless if I had asked them to give their opinion.

In my view this discussion downplays both of you, and for the sake of your business and the Bitcoin community I would humbly suggest that you refrain from it, and try to promote your exchange in a positive way instead of going with negative comments on competitors. This means not interfering on each other's threads.

I don't even mention the Referral spamming which is getting to be a burden.

I'm not using an exchange yet, but if I need one in the future, I will look for someone who is decent and honourable from start (their 1st post) to finish.

This is written with all respect due to your efforts, which I believe are well intended to start with. And I sincerely hope that we will have many good competing exchanges in the future.

I can understand your sentiment but slightly disagree.

First the forums are a little bit removed from "real world" and I think this IS the appropriate place for the members of BTC community, including the exchanges, to air thier voice so the community can understand the thinking going on. It would be easier for them to go behind closed doors but here they are opening themselves up to the public. I think it's healthy.

Secondly you speak of trust issues. I think your understanding of the world of business may be a little naive. No disprespect. I live near Detroit, MI and it is very common to see cars driving around with test apparati and big leather (nylon?) coverings over the vehicle as to hide the design of the vehicle. Why? Because the competitors were on the look out to steal ideas. Right or wrong? They all do it. You drive a vehicle don't you?

I had a Hynudai Sonata, 2004, that had a front end that looked very similar to a Jaguar. Obviously bogarted. I would get compliments on my "nice Jaguar". Did I mind? Nope. I got to experience that "Jaguar" feel for about $10K less!!!   

I will use TradeHill and Bitcoin7 both with no reservations.

[3phase]

I can understand your sentiment but slightly disagree.

First the forums are a little bit removed from "real world" and I think this IS the appropriate place for the members of BTC community, including the exchanges, to air thier voice so the community can understand the thinking going on. It would be easier for them to go behind closed doors but here they are opening themselves up to the public. I think it's healthy.

Secondly you speak of trust issues. I think your understanding of the world of business may be a little naive. No disprespect. I live near Detroit, MI and it is very common to see cars driving around with test apparati and big leather (nylon?) coverings over the vehicle as to hide the design of the vehicle. Why? Because the competitors were on the look out to steal ideas. Right or wrong? They all do it. You drive a vehicle don't you?

I had a Hynudai Sonata, 2004, that had a front end that looked very similar to a Jaguar. Obviously bogarted. I would get compliments on my "nice Jaguar". Did I mind? Nope. I got to experience that "Jaguar" feel for about $10K less!!!   

I will use TradeHill and Bitcoin7 both with no reservations.

I can understand your reasoning as well. I have been running an IT business for 10 years now, I know what competition can cause people to do, but what I wrote above fits with my work ethics and principles. So, I'm just voicing my view, as we all do. It's up to the exchange owners to take it into account or not.

[phillipsjk]

Jered,

I guess the users will decide, after all, based on the the quality, availability, security, functionality and service conditions.
It should be this way anyway.

I PMed you for our openness for potential cooperation and communication, it's now obvious that such could not occur.


P.S. 1% similarity, obvious and logical features like Instant Buy/Sell and someone PMed you is nothing exact I would say. I claim exactly the opposite. Anyway, I wonder when we will see some of our features and benefits copied on your interface it is all part of the game

While I agree that short headings are not copyrightable (likely not "creative" enough), and that the headings are too generic to be trademarked (a trademark can not actually describe a product; competitors must be able to use generic terms to describe their own product); Jared seems to be claiming that only 1% of the text is different from his site.

The similarity between the two sites is confusing to users. Both have operations in the US, both use the same anonymous registrar. The dangerously paranoid part of me thinks that both may be a CIA front (the argument over originality sort of convinces me otherwise).