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Author Topic: Islamic Bank of Bitcoin{}بنك بتكوين الاسلامي  (Read 102373 times)
jtimon
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August 02, 2011, 05:38:30 PM
 #121

I'm not religious, but I also see interest as a dab thing for society.
I believe many religious prohibitions had a practical reason that has been and are later maintained by tradition and dogma.
The prohibition of pork probably prevented the propagation of diseases related to its consumption.
The reason why many religions have prohibited interest is to prevent some effects that make them see it as inherently bad.
I don't think interest can be defeated through morals though. As long as money is both scarce and everlasting, interest is going to be there.
But I think we can free money from interest by making it abundant or perishable.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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Ben Walsh (beamer)
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August 02, 2011, 05:44:56 PM
 #122

If you aren't on it already, head over to housepricecrash.co.uk. The forums there are very rich for those looking to expand their understanding of economics and current affairs relating to it.

I am often there, though post only infrequently (PatientlyWaiting).

As with any forum there are some "more curious" posters but we learn to live with them ;O)

I'm not religious, but I also see interest as a dab thing for society.
I believe many religious prohibitions had a practical reason that has been and are later maintained by tradition and dogma.
The prohibition of pork probably prevented the propagation of diseases related to its consumption.
The reason why many religions have prohibited interest is to prevent some effects that make them see it as inherently bad.
I don't think interest can be defeated through morals though. As long as money is both scarce and everlasting, interest is going to be there.
But I think we can free money from interest by making it abundant or perishable.


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jimbo77
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August 02, 2011, 06:14:50 PM
 #123

Help me understand this please. A guy said you guys refused to loan him some money because he was gonna use the loan to buy computer parts; is that true? Why exactly would that be a sin? Or did you reject the loan for some reason other than what he was gonna do with the money?
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We didnt want to invest in a mining company (there is already SIN).
That "SIN" was a stock on glbse.com. LOL.
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August 02, 2011, 06:30:40 PM
 #124

Help me understand this please. A guy said you guys refused to loan him some money because he was gonna use the loan to buy computer parts; is that true? Why exactly would that be a sin? Or did you reject the loan for some reason other than what he was gonna do with the money?
Quote
We didnt want to invest in a mining company (there is already SIN).
That "SIN" was a stock on glbse.com. LOL.

I didnt understand what you mean jimbo? why lol?
Because you were talking about a stock and other people thought you were talking about the act of sin.
jtimon
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August 02, 2011, 07:30:24 PM
 #125

If you aren't on it already, head over to housepricecrash.co.uk. The forums there are very rich for those looking to expand their understanding of economics and current affairs relating to it.

I am often there, though post only infrequently (PatientlyWaiting).

As with any forum there are some "more curious" posters but we learn to live with them ;O)

I guess you think I don't understand economics because I think interest is bad. Am I right?
I understand the housing bubble. This documentary gives some interesting details about some of its causes, but I still think that most of its commentators don't really understand all the effects of interest in society.
The means I propose to lower interest rates are very different from the ones that central banks use: the effects are also very different.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
nrd525
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August 02, 2011, 11:22:43 PM
 #126

I'm fascinated by the development of the project (and I enjoyed the link to the Scandinavian alternative bank).  Personally, I'd love to see democratic banks that are owned and controlled by regular people.

I hate to say it, but based on the current level of fraud and lack of accountability in the bitcoin economy, I'm extremely skeptical about everything.  It is crazy that the IBB stock price went up to ten times the initial price (and is now still at eight time that price).   That is a bubble.

To reduce the speculative bubble, I'd recommend issuing shares at 0.1 as a better way of allowing people to put money into this than having them buy the overpriced at 0.8 on GLBSE -- however I'm not sure I want to see more money going into it.  And it might be too late to do this (as current share holders will be annoyed). 

Alternatively issuing more shares at the current price would at least dilute the bubble (say if you managed to double the cash assets of IBB by offering more shares, then your assets would be worth 50-60% of the market value - whereas right now the assets are worth 12.5% of the market value).  If you took this to an extreme (issued tons of new shares), you could approach a situation of assets being worth 90% of the market value and then hope that other revenues would start coming in.

I think the stock price surge is due to your intelligent posts and that people like the idea.  The price doesn't match the financial fundamentals.

Personally, I think the company will be lucky to get its money back from loans.  Fraud is systematic and unfortunately you don't have a good way of stopping it. 

Don't day trade.
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August 03, 2011, 01:05:18 AM
 #127

Help me understand this please. A guy said you guys refused to loan him some money because he was gonna use the loan to buy computer parts; is that true? Why exactly would that be a sin? Or did you reject the loan for some reason other than what he was gonna do with the money?
Quote
We didnt want to invest in a mining company (there is already SIN).
That "SIN" was a stock on glbse.com. LOL.
I assumed it was somthing like that when i read that msg; when i talked about sin i meant "haram" (or however that is spelled), against the rules of the religion that rule how islamic banking works; i was wondering if there was a rule that somehow applied to buying tools to mint money or somthing.


(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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Fiyasko
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August 03, 2011, 04:50:27 PM
 #128

indeed but also lend to people of other faiths, after all its 0% interest free loan, who would refuse? Tongue

Trust me, some will refuse a 0% interest loan.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=4946.msg79764#msg79764

AHAHAHHA THATS SO FUNNY, I CAME HERE FOR THE 0% AND AT THE BOTTOM IS A LINK TO ME REJECTING 0%'S!
AHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA

But that was because i felt bad for Taking money and only giving it back later without Giving anything to he whom Gave to me.

BTW: Im looking for a Loan from IBB, How do we goabout doing this?

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jtimon
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August 03, 2011, 07:42:41 PM
 #129

But that was because i felt bad for Taking money and only giving it back later without Giving anything to he whom Gave to me.

Why should you feel bad about it?

If I give you 20 fish today and you give me 20 fish next month, how is your fish worse than mine?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Fiyasko
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August 03, 2011, 08:07:34 PM
 #130

I would just feel very far on the thankful side and feel that simple typed words as gratitude atop of giving you the new fish back later wouldnt be enough.
I would still feel alittle indebt for your generosity and unless one insisted that it need not be neccesary

http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=DingoRabiit&sign=ANY&type=RECV <-My Ratings
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0 GAWminers and associated things are not to be trusted, Especially the "mineral" exchange
TiagoTiago
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August 03, 2011, 08:12:48 PM
 #131

So you're saying that in our view being generous is way more valuable than what you're being generous with?


Anyway, that is what the gratuity is for, to say "thanx" with cash Smiley

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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The more you believe in Bitcoin, and the more you show you do to other people, the faster the real value will soar!

Do you like mmmBananas?!
Fiyasko
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August 03, 2011, 08:16:17 PM
 #132

So you're saying that in our view being generous is way more valuable than what you're being generous with?

Very good point to make...

http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=DingoRabiit&sign=ANY&type=RECV <-My Ratings
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0 GAWminers and associated things are not to be trusted, Especially the "mineral" exchange
nrd525
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August 03, 2011, 11:21:42 PM
 #133

Why would the chance that it might generate a small return, cause the price to go up by a factor of EIGHT?

The only way you can make that kind of money is by being a loan shark. Very un-Islamic.

Don't day trade.
myrkul
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August 03, 2011, 11:25:30 PM
 #134

Why would the chance that it might generate a small return, cause the price to go up by a factor of EIGHT?

Price is a signal of confidence. People obviously have a relatively high confidence that IBB is a good investment.

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jtimon
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August 04, 2011, 09:08:59 AM
 #135

I would just feel very far on the thankful side and feel that simple typed words as gratitude atop of giving you the new fish back later wouldnt be enough.
I would still feel alittle indebt for your generosity and unless one insisted that it need not be neccesary

But you're making good for him too. His fish would be rotten if he didn't lend it to you.
You need it now and he needs it later, but the value of the fish at the moment of giving it (smaller) and at the moment of receiving it (higher) could be the same for both parties.
You don't see it this way because you believe in time preference, but is not applicable to all goods, just to money.

In fact, just to scarce everlasting moneys. You shouldn't feel bad for borrowing freicoins or LETS/ripple IOUs at zero interest.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Ben Walsh (beamer)
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August 04, 2011, 04:24:25 PM
 #136

Nope, not at all. I merely thought that, as an apparently fellow open-minded person with regards to economics / finance, you might enjoy reading/debating on a forum that has a greater focus in those areas too.

I am starting to re-consider my support for the concept of "interest" and explore other solutions to the issues it seeks to address - hence my support for and investment in IBB.

If you aren't on it already, head over to housepricecrash.co.uk. The forums there are very rich for those looking to expand their understanding of economics and current affairs relating to it.

I am often there, though post only infrequently (PatientlyWaiting).

As with any forum there are some "more curious" posters but we learn to live with them ;O)

I guess you think I don't understand economics because I think interest is bad. Am I right?
I understand the housing bubble. This documentary gives some interesting details about some of its causes, but I still think that most of its commentators don't really understand all the effects of interest in society.
The means I propose to lower interest rates are very different from the ones that central banks use: the effects are also very different.


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How many Bitcoins can I expect to mine ? - http://bitcoindetailedcalculator.appspot.com
BTC Donation Address : 13Wu7W7jmjQot7xnqogHYSmUmR1MzyB3YE
TiagoTiago
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August 04, 2011, 11:32:46 PM
 #137

Those two weren't translated by the same person, were they?

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

Wanna gimme some BTC for any or no reason? 1FmvtS66LFh6ycrXDwKRQTexGJw4UWiqDX Smiley

The more you believe in Bitcoin, and the more you show you do to other people, the faster the real value will soar!

Do you like mmmBananas?!
nrd525
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August 05, 2011, 12:22:04 AM
 #138

I'd want a loan so I can short bitcoin (as currently the options market - bitoption.org is under development and lacks volume).

Loans effectively let you short bitcoin without having to put up any margin.

If you set this up fully, I bet a bunch of your bank customers are going to be speculators.

Don't day trade.
jtimon
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August 05, 2011, 12:43:46 PM
 #139

Nope, not at all. I merely thought that, as an apparently fellow open-minded person with regards to economics / finance, you might enjoy reading/debating on a forum that has a greater focus in those areas too.

I am starting to re-consider my support for the concept of "interest" and explore other solutions to the issues it seeks to address - hence my support for and investment in IBB.

Ok, thanks. Sorry if I've been rude. Maybe you should take a look into freicoin and Silvio Gesell.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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August 08, 2011, 03:54:31 PM
 #140

Hello Senbonzakura

i recently sent you a pm about commissioning some services from IBB
and i wondered if you received or checked the pm yet.

Thanks
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