Liberty Reserve shutdown is a boost for Bitcoin?

[alex_fun]

Bitcoin price is not fixed unlike LR, so most likely boost for webmoney, yandex money and so on

[HappyBitCoinUser]

Do criminals put money into stocks? If they do, maybe we should shut down stock market as well.

[NewLiberty]

Do criminals put money into stocks? If they do, maybe we should shut down stock market as well.

The stock market engages in KYC.  Accounts take taxpayer IDs etc.

[Frozenlock]

Do criminals put money into stocks? If they do, maybe we should shut down stock market as well.

I heard they even use roads!

[NewLiberty]

Do criminals put money into stocks? If they do, maybe we should shut down stock market as well.

I heard they even use roads!

Roads are also more monitored and transparent than LR is/was. 
Cameras with OCR scanning licenses and shoot photos of speeders and red light runners.

Bitcoin is distinct in that the software includes transaction tracking and serialization so governments may use it for enforcement of their laws.  It arguably takes willful effort to create anonymity, which can be used to point to intent, or knowledge if these methods are uncommon.  Intent or knowledge being a prong in most criminal cases, and all of the really serious ones.

The foregoing is not to be construed as a legal opinion.

[becoin]

It arguably takes willful effort to create anonymity, which can be used to point to intent, or knowledge if these methods are uncommon. 

So, a willful effort to create anonymity is a crime? Hmmm, very interesting.

[NewLiberty]

It arguably takes willful effort to create anonymity, which can be used to point to intent, or knowledge if these methods are uncommon. 

So, a willful effort to create anonymity is a crime? Hmmm, very interesting.

No, but willful misunderstanding should be one.

There are elements of crime.  To be guilty, all of the elements must be proven.  In the realm of tax fraud, there are innocent mistakes which get things like late fines, and there is willful fraud, which gets things like jail time, and multiples of financial damages.  The difference here is the provability of intent.

Some examples may illustrate:
Al Capone and Heidi Fleiss both ran criminal enterprises according to the government in which they resided.  Both were caught and charged for tax fraud.
They were not able to claim it was an innocent mistake because of the evidence of willful intent, they took steps to separate the money transferring from their taxable identity.

The wisdom of the founders of bitcoin is evident in that they did not themselves take the steps to separate taxable identity from the transactions.  In fact it provides some very strong logging that does precisely the opposite.  They left that step to others.  So bitcoin has survived and will survive this legal test. Individual users of bitcoin may not fare so well depending on their behavior.  Being anonymous is quite fine in itself, however when someone is caught wiping fingerprints from a crime scene, they are in hot water.

[becoin]

Being anonymous is quite fine in itself, however when someone is caught wiping fingerprints from a crime scene, they are in hot water.

So, anonymity in general is bad because the whole world is a crime scene?

[Frozenlock]

I also think curtains are for the criminals.

Those pesky women... they must have something to hide, otherwise they wouldn't need them.

[flavius]

Being anonymous is quite fine in itself, however when someone is caught wiping fingerprints from a crime scene, they are in hot water.

So, anonymity in general is bad because the whole world is a crime scene?

yes. that is the ENTIRE reason why the majority of the world is anti bitcoin

[NewLiberty]

Being anonymous is quite fine in itself, however when someone is caught wiping fingerprints from a crime scene, they are in hot water.

So, anonymity in general is bad because the whole world is a crime scene?

I don't know where you get these ideas, but they aren't from me.  You even chose to ignore the first half of the sentence in order to get this free education.  So here it is:

Anonymity is neither good nor bad.
Anonymity is not necessarily done because you have something to hide, it may also be done because you have something to protect.
A person can do something anonymously or publicly.  However, when someone is committing a crime, and they chose to do so anonymously, and take steps to do so.  This can be used to show intent in court, which is an element of most financial crimes, and all of the serious ones.
To find someone guilty of one of these crimes in a court of law, two things need to be proven.
1) The bad act
2) The guilty mind
The guilty mind is typically the harder one to show unless there are statements on record to show it, or actions that indicate it.
The prosecuting attorney will certainly bring up the fact that there was an attempt to act anonymously as evidence indicating the guilty mind.
A defendant facing a jury of random people who can show that either everything they do is anonymous and that everything they do is legal may have a good defense against this, however proving you do all those legitimate things anonymously is also going to be difficult without revealing a lot of things that you might rather keep private.

This is the challenge the LR folks are facing currently.

[flavius]

anonymity is bad when most financial systems are exploitable

if the world was a very secure place then we wouldnt need things like social security numbers and forms of ID

[NewLiberty]

anonymity is bad when most financial systems are exploitable

if the world was a very secure place then we wouldnt need things like social security numbers and forms of ID

I remain in the not good / not bad grey areas with respect to anonymity.  It is a tool, it has purposes and uses.  Just like a hammer, you can build a house or hit someone in the head, just don't blame the hammer.

Arguably there are ways to not need things like social security numbers and forms of ID even in an insecure world.
Anonymity is not necessarily meaning you have something to hide, it may also mean you have something to protect

Consider the plight of the wealthy bitcoin hoarder.  They do not want to be a target for evil hacking, so they choose to do most transactions anonymously and use multiple wallets, tor to hide IP addresses, and other means to obscure their wealth.

[flavius]

right, and im sure the wealthy celebrities and athletes in the world also remain anonymous with their wealth

that is a completely irrelevant side of anonymity

unfortunately crime is so rampant that its impossible to say being anonymous is really a "good" thing from a government and LE position. from our position yes im sure all of us would like to remain anonymous regardless of what we do with it

[NewLiberty]

right, and im sure the wealthy celebrities and athletes in the world also remain anonymous with their wealth

that is a completely irrelevant side of anonymity

unfortunately crime is so rampant that its impossible to say being anonymous is really a "good" thing from a government and LE position. from our position yes im sure all of us would like to remain anonymous regardless of what we do with it

Celebrity has many costs.  It is also a currency, but one that depreciates rapidly.

Governments also use anonymity.  Much of what governments do is kept secret.

I don't know that crime is so rampant as you suggest.  Most people don't commit crimes with any regularity, maybe 3%?  Those that do get a lot of attention so it seems more rampant than it is, and many of those are the non-violent type without victims.

[notme]

I don't know that crime is so rampant as you suggest.  Most people don't commit crimes with any regularity, maybe 3%?  Those that do get a lot of attention so it seems more rampant than it is, and many of those are the non-violent type without victims.

The average American adult commits 3 felonies per day.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842.html

[nmersulypnem]

Bitcoin price is not fixed unlike LR, so most likely boost for webmoney, yandex money and so on

The only man in this thread with the correct answer goes ignored...

[anu]

Bitcoin price is not fixed unlike LR, so most likely boost for webmoney, yandex money and so on

The only man in this thread with the correct answer goes ignored...

I doubt anyone ignored alex_fun for this.

But 6 Billion is serious money, compared to the size of the Bitcoin economy, anyway. Some criminals who's funds have been taken by the feds might wonder if another centralized service that can be taken out the same way is such a good solution. If only 10% of that money went to Bitcoin, we should see a serious boost. But we don't. In fact we don't see evidence that any money at all is flowing into Bitcoin atm.

And why should we? Moving money around with LR, Webmoney, WU or Bitcoin is not helping making it appear legitimate, just as carrying a bag of banknotes from one country to another is not helping a criminal in the least. To launder money, you need to have legitimate business and you add to the revenue they actually have.

I think LR's turnover of illegitimate money was orders of magnitude smaller than the official numbers. Govt had other reasons for taking them down and they simply lie to us.

[b!z]

Bitcoin price is not fixed unlike LR, so most likely boost for webmoney, yandex money and so on

The only man in this thread with the correct answer goes ignored...

I doubt anyone ignored alex_fun for this.

But 6 Billion is serious money, compared to the size of the Bitcoin economy, anyway. Some criminals who's funds have been taken by the feds might wonder if another centralized service that can be taken out the same way is such a good solution. If only 10% of that money went to Bitcoin, we should see a serious boost. But we don't. In fact we don't see evidence that any money at all is flowing into Bitcoin atm.

And why should we? Moving money around with LR, Webmoney, WU or Bitcoin is not helping making it appear legitimate, just as carrying a bag of banknotes from one country to another is not helping a criminal in the least. To launder money, you need to have legitimate business and you add to the revenue they actually have.

I think LR's turnover of illegitimate money was orders of magnitude smaller than the official numbers. Govt had other reasons for taking them down and they simply lie to us.

This should give you a better opinion of what cybercriminals think about LR. http://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/05/underweb-payments-post-liberty-reserve/

[anu]

Bitcoin price is not fixed unlike LR, so most likely boost for webmoney, yandex money and so on

The only man in this thread with the correct answer goes ignored...

I doubt anyone ignored alex_fun for this.

But 6 Billion is serious money, compared to the size of the Bitcoin economy, anyway. Some criminals who's funds have been taken by the feds might wonder if another centralized service that can be taken out the same way is such a good solution. If only 10% of that money went to Bitcoin, we should see a serious boost. But we don't. In fact we don't see evidence that any money at all is flowing into Bitcoin atm.

And why should we? Moving money around with LR, Webmoney, WU or Bitcoin is not helping making it appear legitimate, just as carrying a bag of banknotes from one country to another is not helping a criminal in the least. To launder money, you need to have legitimate business and you add to the revenue they actually have.

I think LR's turnover of illegitimate money was orders of magnitude smaller than the official numbers. Govt had other reasons for taking them down and they simply lie to us.

This should give you a better opinion of what cybercriminals think about LR. http://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/05/underweb-payments-post-liberty-reserve/

I suggest you read the article you link to yourself. The poll at the bottom says 13.83% think Bitcoin works best for them. If that translates into 13.83% of the 6 Billion of alleged criminal volume (around 1 Billion / year), that means we should see an additional $300K volume per day. Which would be perfectly visible. Apparently it doesn't translate. Which means that 6 Billion is grossly overexaggerated.

Other than that, I have my issues with the article and the apparent lack of knowledge of the author. Saying that LR was "insanely redundant and secure" as opposed to Bitcoin is not very accurate, as you undoubtedly will agree.