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Author Topic: What can trade on a bitcoin exchange?  (Read 923 times)
semaforo
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May 29, 2013, 01:46:43 PM
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   Just thought I'd ask some opinions- could companies who are not directly involved in mining or developing bitcoin infrastructure raise capital on bitcoin exchanges? I mean, if a company had considerable bitcoin denominated assets and was actively engaged in growing the bitcoin ecosystem, could it trade on bitcoin exchanges? Would there be investors who would invest in such companies?

     I ask because it seems like most of the stock being traded on bitcoin exchanges are mining bonds, and I don't see how these can be good long term investments considering the continually increasing difficulty. I know a bunch of fiat is being put into bitcoin startups right now, but I am not seeing any really solid companies that are soliciting bitcoin from investors. I guess this is really only relevant for people like me who have no interest in holding wealth in fiat and still want to make medium to long term investments in non-mining businesses. I am sort of envisioning bitcoin exchanges as forming a parallel economy that can minimize our contact with "old world" of dollars and euros. It's my personal belief that it is more beneficial to everyone if wealth moves, and I don't want to hoard bitcoins hoping that the value will go up- I want to use them to support meaningful businesses that are in line with my political and philosophical ideals, regardless if the value goes up or down.

   Maybe someone in this forum can point me towards such opportunities, because it seems like the venture capitalists with the really big money are getting all the action right now. Are there any crowdfunding platforms that are working with bitcoins?
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bb999
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May 29, 2013, 03:45:00 PM
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   Just thought I'd ask some opinions- could companies who are not directly involved in mining or developing bitcoin infrastructure raise capital on bitcoin exchanges? I mean, if a company had considerable bitcoin denominated assets and was actively engaged in growing the bitcoin ecosystem, could it trade on bitcoin exchanges? Would there be investors who would invest in such companies?

     I ask because it seems like most of the stock being traded on bitcoin exchanges are mining bonds, and I don't see how these can be good long term investments considering the continually increasing difficulty. I know a bunch of fiat is being put into bitcoin startups right now, but I am not seeing any really solid companies that are soliciting bitcoin from investors. I guess this is really only relevant for people like me who have no interest in holding wealth in fiat and still want to make medium to long term investments in non-mining businesses. I am sort of envisioning bitcoin exchanges as forming a parallel economy that can minimize our contact with "old world" of dollars and euros. It's my personal belief that it is more beneficial to everyone if wealth moves, and I don't want to hoard bitcoins hoping that the value will go up- I want to use them to support meaningful businesses that are in line with my political and philosophical ideals, regardless if the value goes up or down.

   Maybe someone in this forum can point me towards such opportunities, because it seems like the venture capitalists with the really big money are getting all the action right now. Are there any crowdfunding platforms that are working with bitcoins?

I don't use it personally but it seems like https://bitfunder.com/ is doing something like what you're talking about.

I would love to see more companies with a diversity of backgrounds listing on Bitcoin exchanges.  I think if we're limited to Satoshi Dice style companies and mining companies then it really hampers the development of the ecosystem.  That being said we are in the very, very early stages of Bitcoin based capital markets and I would expect them to grow over time as the infrastructure improves.
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May 29, 2013, 05:21:37 PM
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There is a gray area here.

If you are wholly in BTCitcoin, you can probably sell shares in your virtual (not real) company, as long as it's not really a company (especially in the USA). The gray area comes in if the SEC takes note of you. If you don't have your ducks in a row when they do, it could be very costly. Getting your ducks in a row could be very costly also.

It is probably legal to offer shares personally (without a company behind it). It seems to be legal to offer shares privately (not openly listed on a market) if your company is incorporated in a state, but closely held and not registered with the SEC. Some states have very strict laws (in an attempt to protect citizens / investors) others have few laws (with the idea of allowing the market to be less constrained - like Wyoming.)

If you'll notice, ASICMiner (as a great instance) is a "BTCitcoin publicly owned company", but it is based in China (I believe). So the SEC has no jurisdiction and if bad things happen to your investment in it, you are not "protected."

There's a fairly lengthy discussion about US securities laws here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217709.0

Recommended reading.

Remember, IANAL, however I've created and run a few companies in my life. Never a BTCitcoin funded company, but I'm looking at it and interested.

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bb999
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May 29, 2013, 06:23:48 PM
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There is a gray area here.

If you are wholly in BTCitcoin, you can probably sell shares in your virtual (not real) company, as long as it's not really a company (especially in the USA). The gray area comes in if the SEC takes note of you. If you don't have your ducks in a row when they do, it could be very costly. Getting your ducks in a row could be very costly also.

It is probably legal to offer shares personally (without a company behind it). It seems to be legal to offer shares privately (not openly listed on a market) if your company is incorporated in a state, but closely held and not registered with the SEC. Some states have very strict laws (in an attempt to protect citizens / investors) others have few laws (with the idea of allowing the market to be less constrained - like Wyoming.)

If you'll notice, ASICMiner (as a great instance) is a "BTCitcoin publicly owned company", but it is based in China (I believe). So the SEC has no jurisdiction and if bad things happen to your investment in it, you are not "protected."

There's a fairly lengthy discussion about US securities laws here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217709.0

Recommended reading.

Remember, IANAL, however I've created and run a few companies in my life. Never a BTCitcoin funded company, but I'm looking at it and interested.


I think you are correct, and a potential result of the SEC requirements is that a lot of the innovation is going to happen outside of the U.S. as people try to avoid the regulatory burden.
Peter Lambert
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May 29, 2013, 10:52:42 PM
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   Just thought I'd ask some opinions- could companies who are not directly involved in mining or developing bitcoin infrastructure raise capital on bitcoin exchanges? I mean, if a company had considerable bitcoin denominated assets and was actively engaged in growing the bitcoin ecosystem, could it trade on bitcoin exchanges? Would there be investors who would invest in such companies?

     I ask because it seems like most of the stock being traded on bitcoin exchanges are mining bonds, and I don't see how these can be good long term investments considering the continually increasing difficulty. I know a bunch of fiat is being put into bitcoin startups right now, but I am not seeing any really solid companies that are soliciting bitcoin from investors. I guess this is really only relevant for people like me who have no interest in holding wealth in fiat and still want to make medium to long term investments in non-mining businesses. I am sort of envisioning bitcoin exchanges as forming a parallel economy that can minimize our contact with "old world" of dollars and euros. It's my personal belief that it is more beneficial to everyone if wealth moves, and I don't want to hoard bitcoins hoping that the value will go up- I want to use them to support meaningful businesses that are in line with my political and philosophical ideals, regardless if the value goes up or down.

   Maybe someone in this forum can point me towards such opportunities, because it seems like the venture capitalists with the really big money are getting all the action right now. Are there any crowdfunding platforms that are working with bitcoins?

Clearly you need to do more reading if you think only mining securities are valid. Take a look at what is offered on MPEx: two gambling sites and a stock/option exchange. No mining assets.

If you look carefully at BTCT.co, you will find some non-mining assets there. The AsicMiner thing is kind of an exception to mining, because they are actually making the hardware (and selling it), so mining is only a portion of the company. You can also look at BitVPS, BTC-BOND, ESECURITYSABTC, and GOLD as other non-mining assets (also, the pass-throughs to the MPEx assets). There are others on BitFunder as well, and I think IBB listed on CryptoStocks. Of course, be very careful and do your own research before investing into anything.

The reason there are so many mining assets is because they are easy to set up and can be quite lucrative for the operator, basically they are having people buy them a mining rig for free. Wether they are actually good for investors can be debated.

Use CoinBR to trade bitcoin stocks: CoinBR.com

The best place for betting with bitcoin: BitBet.us
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June 07, 2013, 03:55:25 PM
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See this example:

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222746.0

This is a GOLD mining company which is traded on Bitfunder. AFAIK first non Bitcoin related stock traded on a Bitcoin exchange.
semaforo
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June 07, 2013, 07:40:56 PM
 #7

Looks interesting. Thanks!
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