Ripples a threat to bitcoin?

[xxjs]

Using "Fun fact" as a pretext for your fallacious argument doesn't suddenly make it hold ground, even with a sarcastic undertone.

It wasn't an argument - it was just a fun fact.

It's yet another fallacy.
By presenting your argument as a "fun fact" you are trying to distract from your fallacious argument and make it appear as it isn't argumentative while it is.
You are suggesting similarities between Charles Ponzi and Ripple using the stamp analogy.

You committed two fallacies at once.

So what is my argument?

Se my take on ripple (which I don't understand fully, I admit):
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297287.msg3226115#msg3226115

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[Coinseeker]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.  This has nothing to do with Ripple and everything to do with Bitcoin devs.  Unless the plan is to hide the weaknesses and flaws of Bitcoin and just seek to destroy everything thing else rising within the crypto space.  Good luck with that.  Doesn't seem to be working too well but, I suppose there is always hope.  I'm also sure Ripple was around long before I came on the scene.  My crypto born on date, is May 3rd, 2013 when I bought my first couple Bitcoins via Bitinstant -> ZipZap.  It was about a month after that I started to get into Ripple, so hate me if you want but at least get your facts straight.  

[sinner]

how do i cashout these dollars?

[Coinseeker]

how do i cashout these dollars?

Redeem them with the issuer of course.  

[notme]

Have to say I'm slightly alarmed by the number of people who think ripple will help the bitcoin economy!!!! (At the time of posting 32%) Does fiat money help gold and siver? no. exactly.

You confuse the Bitcoin economy (use of Bitcoin's payment network) with the value of a Bitcoin (use of bitcoins as a currency).

Certainly Bitcoin has value due to its unique properties, so if some competitor has similar properties and takes "market share" away from Bitcoin that will decrease the demand for bitcoins and thus a lower exchange rate.

But my interest in seeing Bitcoin succeed has more to do with seeing an alternative to fiat become widely used, not to maximize the Bitcoin exchange rate.

Ripple makes up for the weaknesses in the payment network surrounding Bitcoin, etc.

Bingo.  Anything that adds to Bitcoin's utility should be welcomed.  I just was at an event in which silver was one of the payment methods accepted.  Let's say I only had bitcoins.   I could have used Ripple to convert my bitcoins to DYM (voucher), and the merchant would then receive silver:

Introducing Ripple Currency: DYM
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149533.msg3219655#msg3219655

Both of us would have been happy.   Neither of us would have touched fiat.  That, ... would have been a win.

The only problem being that any currency besides XRP in the Ripple system is only an IOU.  Not necessarily a problem if you are dealing with people you can trust, but not something that should be glossed over.

Every Bitcoin being traded on any exchange is an IOU.  It's not that it needs to be glossed over, it's that people need to understand what an IOU is.  An IOU is simply a balance.  The USD or BTC "balance" in your Gox or Bitstamp account are simply IOU's.  Gox or Bitstamp "owe" you that balance.  You "trust" them to give it back when you ask for it.  Ripple just lifts the veil...while it is shocking to some at first, it's only because you didn't realize that nearly everything you do with currency is via IOU.  The balance you see in the ATM is an IOU.  The amount you see in your Paypal or Dwolla account is an IOU.  

You don't trade on an exchange (IOU issuer) you don't trust, you don't bank with a bank (IOU issuer) you don't trust and in Ripple, you shouldn't use a gateway (IOU issuer) you don't trust.  It's all really that simple. Nothing stops you from emptying your bank account and storing the cash in your mattress, just as nothing prevents you from withdrawing your BTC back to your wallet for storage.  

On another note, I'm very happy to see the unscientific poll results to be where they are.  It shows that not only are more and more people finally beginning to understand Ripple, but that more and more people actually care about crypto and the fiat problems it solves more than just a single crypto currency.  It's the tech that's disruptive, not the brand.

I understand all that.  Which is why most of my net worth is stored in offline bitcoin wallets.  I prefer to take responsibility for my own money.

[bitcoinBull]

Every Bitcoin being traded on any exchange is an IOU.  It's not that it needs to be glossed over, it's that people need to understand what an IOU is.  An IOU is simply a balance.  The USD or BTC "balance" in your Gox or Bitstamp account are simply IOU's.  Gox or Bitstamp "owe" you that balance.  You "trust" them to give it back when you ask for it.  Ripple just lifts the veil...while it is shocking to some at first, it's only because you didn't realize that nearly everything you do with currency is via IOU.  The balance you see in the ATM is an IOU.  The amount you see in your Paypal or Dwolla account is an IOU.  

You don't trade on an exchange (IOU issuer) you don't trust, you don't bank with a bank (IOU issuer) you don't trust and in Ripple, you shouldn't use a gateway (IOU issuer) you don't trust.  It's all really that simple. Nothing stops you from emptying your bank account and storing the cash in your mattress, just as nothing prevents you from withdrawing your BTC back to your wallet for storage.  

On another note, I'm very happy to see the unscientific poll results to be where they are.  It shows that not only are more and more people finally beginning to understand Ripple, but that more and more people actually care about crypto and the fiat problems it solves more than just a single crypto currency.  It's the tech that's disruptive, not the brand.

I understand all that.  Which is why most of my net worth is stored in offline bitcoin wallets.  I prefer to take responsibility for my own money.

XRP is also stored offline, the "secret key" you get when you create a ripple wallet is analogous to the private keys you can export on blockchain.info (on ripple.com/client, an encrypted blob is stored on payward.com and decrypted with your wallet name and password so the web-client can sign transactions with your secret key).

Now, even though you can take responsibility of your own private keys, your net worth is directly affected by problems at the major bitcoin exchanges. Especially when only one or two big exchanges maintain a monopoly (eg if trading lag at MtGox crashes your net worth). Centralized/"balkanized" bitcoin exchanges with wire transfers as the only way in and out are clearly a problem. Ripple is a solution for that (not saying that it's a perfect solution, but something that exists is better than something described in a proposal).

[notme]

Every Bitcoin being traded on any exchange is an IOU.  It's not that it needs to be glossed over, it's that people need to understand what an IOU is.  An IOU is simply a balance.  The USD or BTC "balance" in your Gox or Bitstamp account are simply IOU's.  Gox or Bitstamp "owe" you that balance.  You "trust" them to give it back when you ask for it.  Ripple just lifts the veil...while it is shocking to some at first, it's only because you didn't realize that nearly everything you do with currency is via IOU.  The balance you see in the ATM is an IOU.  The amount you see in your Paypal or Dwolla account is an IOU.  

You don't trade on an exchange (IOU issuer) you don't trust, you don't bank with a bank (IOU issuer) you don't trust and in Ripple, you shouldn't use a gateway (IOU issuer) you don't trust.  It's all really that simple. Nothing stops you from emptying your bank account and storing the cash in your mattress, just as nothing prevents you from withdrawing your BTC back to your wallet for storage.  

On another note, I'm very happy to see the unscientific poll results to be where they are.  It shows that not only are more and more people finally beginning to understand Ripple, but that more and more people actually care about crypto and the fiat problems it solves more than just a single crypto currency.  It's the tech that's disruptive, not the brand.

I understand all that.  Which is why most of my net worth is stored in offline bitcoin wallets.  I prefer to take responsibility for my own money.

XRP is also stored offline, the "secret key" you get when you create a ripple wallet is analogous to the private keys you can export on blockchain.info (on ripple.com/client, an encrypted blob is stored on payward.com and decrypted with your wallet name and password so the web-client can sign transactions with your secret key).

Now, even though you can take responsibility of your own private keys, your net worth is directly affected by problems at the major bitcoin exchanges. Especially when only one or two big exchanges maintain a monopoly (eg if trading lag at MtGox crashes your net worth). Centralized/"balkanized" bitcoin exchanges with wire transfers as the only way in and out are clearly a problem. Ripple is a solution for that (not saying that it's a perfect solution, but something that exists is better than something described in a proposal).

Good job ignoring context.

[Ares]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.

Now ask yourself, does that really sound complimentary, or threatening?

[Coinseeker]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.

Now ask yourself, does that really sound complimentary, or threatening?

You're confusing XRP with Ripple the payment network.  

[Ares]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.

Now ask yourself, does that really sound complimentary, or threatening?

You're confusing XRP with Ripple the payment network.  

I made it clear I was talking about Ripples/XRP. Seeing as those are a necessity in order to use Ripple, you can't have on without the other. The network is playing all friendly with Bitcoiners, then once it's big enough, it will drop Bitcoin and say lets just use XRP instead because, as the dev admitted, it's better than Bitcoin within the ripple network. And then we're back to square one with a currency controlled by one group.

A lot will have to go right for Ripple in order for this scenario to come to fruition, but it's undoubtedly what the devs daydream about.

[bitcoinBull]

I made it clear I was talking about Ripples/XRP. Seeing as those are a necessity in order to use Ripple, you can't have on without the other. The network is playing all friendly with Bitcoiners, then once it's big enough, it will drop Bitcoin and say lets just use XRP instead because, as the dev admitted, it's better than Bitcoin within the ripple network. And then we're back to square one with a currency controlled by one group.

With bitcoin, we have "fair" coin distribution controlled by an algorithm (distributed in proportion to hash power). But to determine the market price, we are at the mercy of exchanges. And clearly the current system of exchanges (networked by bank transfers) is failing at this task.

Well, the transparency and decentralization that we love about bitcoin (everyone knows how many bitcoins there are, and no central authority can seize anyone's bitcoins), ripple brings to exchange: everyone knows how many IOUs there are (bitstamp gateway cap currently stands at $259,210 USD and 2,321 BTC), and exchanges are not capable of seizing a user's IOUs. Instead, IOUs are traded freely on the ripple network, just as bitcoins are sent freely (as in speech) within the bitcoin network.

So there is a trade-off: free/fair coin distribution but centralized/balkanized exchange, or unfair/corporate coin distribution but free/decentralized exchange. Maybe there is a better, fairer way to do decentralized exchange, but I haven't seen one that actually exists (not to say there aren't plenty of proposals. but something that actually exists is always better than something described in a proposal). And since this is the real-world, there are always going to be trade-offs. But a real-world with Ripple is MUCH, MUCH better than real-world without it (even if it does have countless utopian proposals).

Now that fair distribution of bitcoin is reason alone why it would never be completely dropped in favor of XRP. Bitcoin's distribution algorithm could be the rock which provides stability against the whims of OpenCoin market operations. It's been said elsewhere: ripple is the dollar for the gold. Sometimes people like dollars and sometimes people like gold. But to say that ripple is an enemy is very short-sighted. At the very least, its a frenemy. Strategically, it is clear to me what ripple is: an enemy of my enemy, is my friend.

[Coinseeker]

I made it clear I was talking about Ripples/XRP. Seeing as those are a necessity in order to use Ripple, you can't have on without the other. The network is playing all friendly with Bitcoiners, then once it's big enough, it will drop Bitcoin and say lets just use XRP instead because, as the dev admitted, it's better than Bitcoin within the ripple network. And then we're back to square one with a currency controlled by one group.

A lot will have to go right for Ripple in order for this scenario to come to fruition, but it's undoubtedly what the devs daydream about.

When you say, "it will drop Bitcoin...", who is it?   No matter what the answer, you're speaking from a place of ignorance.  You can't "drop" any currency because no currency exists within Ripple, except XRP.  The PEOPLE will choose what currencies they want to deal in, not the network.  To the network, all currencies are the same.  They have zero value.

News flash, you're already at square one with Bitcoin.  Bitcoin has received and continues to receive more press and publicity than anything in the crypto space and more than most startup businesses could ever dream of.  Yet, mass adoption = not imminent.  Why?  Because as I've said all along, Bitcoin has a PR problem of an illegal and radical nature.  Not to mention, Bitcoin is further shunned because implementation offers no benefits to consumers over fiat debit cards.  And that's simply because the Bitcoin payment network sucks.  Bitcoin needs the Ripple payment network.  

In Ripple, the people will decide what they prefer.  If you believe in Bitcoin, you should welcome the challenge of putting your "currency" side by side with the rest of the digital and fiat world's currencies and letting it survive or die on its own merits.  If you're insecure about the future of Bitcoin, I can see how labeling everything else a threat would be a natural reaction.

[zachcope]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

If governments don't like unlicensed money transfer I'm sure they'll love unlicensed and unregulated issuers of debt when they start turning up with their 7 foot mates to encourage non payers to cough up, especially if the id of the debt issuers is forged, spoofed etc.

To issue debt you need to be completely traceable and your identity known, as well as the identity of the person taking the debt, or else the system is useless.

[afbitcoins]

XRP is also stored offline, the "secret key" you get when you create a ripple wallet is analogous to the private keys you can export on blockchain.info (on ripple.com/client, an encrypted blob is stored on payward.com and decrypted with your wallet name and password so the web-client can sign transactions with your secret key).

Now, even though you can take responsibility of your own private keys, your net worth is directly affected by problems at the major bitcoin exchanges. Especially when only one or two big exchanges maintain a monopoly (eg if trading lag at MtGox crashes your net worth). Centralized/"balkanized" bitcoin exchanges with wire transfers as the only way in and out are clearly a problem. Ripple is a solution for that (not saying that it's a perfect solution, but something that exists is better than something described in a proposal).

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

[afbitcoins]

An earlier commenter said you could equate ripple versus bitcoin as being like the dollar versus gold. This is a good comparison I think. The battle today between dollar and gold is a battle between unlimited debt and assets with hard limits, just as ripple is unlimited debt versus assets like bitcoin.


If a group of bankers gathered together to concieve a system to demasculate and control crytpo currency like bitcoin and litecoin, ripple is what they would come up with !   

Who is funding OpenCoin anyway ?

[bitcoinBull]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

Bitcoin exchanges already are central points of failure! And MtGox's bank has limited them to ten(!!) SWIFT transfers per day. The exchange situation is a clusterfuck - that's why we see the ridiculous spread between mtgox price and bitstamp price.

How are the MtGox IOUs enforced? MtGox maintains utter and complete control over its IOUs - remember when they used to allow MtGox USD codes? They removed them. A ripple gateway would never be able to control its IOUs like that - a gateway's IOUs trade freely on the ripple order books.

Why would someone think trying to sell the ability to create IOUs to bitcoiners would give them anything but shit and drama? Debt Stinks... I should know 

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

LocalBitcoins - and now we are back to the SneakerNet - a time before the internet!! And then you get the LocalBitcoins exchangers who want to sell them at the MtGox price. No, there is a better way which takes advantage of the internet and technology utilizing next-gen cryptocurrency for decentralized exchange: Ripple.

[zachcope]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

Bitcoin exchanges already are central points of failure! And MtGox's bank has limited them to ten(!!) SWIFT transfers per day. The exchange situation is a clusterfuck - that's why we see the ridiculous spread between mtgox price and bitstamp price.

How are the MtGox IOUs enforced? MtGox maintains utter and complete control over its IOUs - remember when they used to allow MtGox USD codes? They removed them. A ripple gateway would never be able to control its IOUs like that - a gateway's IOUs trade freely on the ripple order books.

Why would someone think trying to sell the ability to create IOUs to bitcoiners would give them anything but shit and drama? Debt Stinks... I should know 

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

LocalBitcoins - and now we are back to the SneakerNet - a time before the internet!! And then you get the LocalBitcoins exchangers who want to sell them at the MtGox price. No, there is a better way which takes advantage of the internet and technology utilizing next-gen cryptocurrency for decentralized exchange: Ripple.

MTGox =/= BTC

[afbitcoins]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

Bitcoin exchanges already are central points of failure! And MtGox's bank has limited them to ten(!!) SWIFT transfers per day. The exchange situation is a clusterfuck - that's why we see the ridiculous spread between mtgox price and bitstamp price.

How are the MtGox IOUs enforced? MtGox maintains utter and complete control over its IOUs - remember when they used to allow MtGox USD codes? They removed them. A ripple gateway would never be able to control its IOUs like that - a gateway's IOUs trade freely on the ripple order books.

Why would someone think trying to sell the ability to create IOUs to bitcoiners would give them anything but shit and drama? Debt Stinks... I should know  

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

LocalBitcoins - and now we are back to the SneakerNet - a time before the internet!! And then you get the LocalBitcoins exchangers who want to sell them at the MtGox price. No, there is a better way which takes advantage of the internet and technology utilizing next-gen cryptocurrency for decentralized exchange: Ripple.

MTGox =/= BTC

Holy smoke! If I had 900 Bitcoins I would not be holding that in an exchange. I accept your point about exchanges, I hold all my bitcoins in my own wallet. Those are not IOU's

On another thread someone said the ripple ledger is completely transparent. Is that true ? Might revise my opinion a bit if thats the case, and if its built in that it has to be the case.
However my main doubts are how can you trust a centralised network?  What if the authorities close it down and you lose all your funds? What if Opencoin decides to start inflating XRP? you only have their word that they won't create more. With bitcoin I don't have such doubts.

Also nobody ever answers the question of who funds OpenCoin ?? Are banks behind it? Its a simple question.

[rampantparanoia]

@afbitcoins

venture capitalists http://www.crunchbase.com/company/opencoin

[windjc]

Actually it's mainly the five figure smear campaign of Tradefortress, and cognitive dissonance of the people here.

Litecoin used to be in the same predicament but it has risen by a factor of 50 since. I expect the anti-ripple choir to be even less successful. But their war is already lost.
With the largest functional Bitcoin exchange (bitstamp) being a ripple gateway, opencoin having more VC money than all Bitcoin ventures combined and Ripples as a real deflationary virtual asset. It will take off with or without Bitcoin. If Bitcoiners collectively decide to piss against the wind that's their predicament, but I don't think that will happen. Just watch what happens after XRP have some capital gains, suddenly the majority here will appear pro ripple, just like they are pro Litecoin.
The hardliners will still be around but they have nothing to do except grinding their teeth.

Saying opencoin has more VC than all the other bitcoin related ventures combined is simply not true. Why would you state this? Bitcoin related projects have accrued much more VC capital in total and on top of that a substantially greater amount of bitcoin related VC has been set aside for future investment.

What agenda do you have, exactly?