Ripples a threat to bitcoin?

[afbitcoins]

I say Ripples will try and eat bitcoins liver but what do you think

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[BitcoinAshley]

No threat whatsoever.

Bitcoin is decentralized. Ripple is not. Bitcoin is open-source. Ripple is not. Bitcoin network can't realistically be shut down by an authority. Ripple can, easily, just like e-Gold and Liberty Reserve. Apples and oranges, bro. Bitcoin and Ripple aren't even in the same ballpark.

I'm not against centralized closed-source mutual credit systems or anything, I'm just practically assessing the threat. And there is none. 

Check out OpenTransactions + BitMessage (link in my sig) if anyone's interested in helping test/develop a system that provides much of the functionality of Ripple without actually being Ripple.

[ElectricMucus]

Ripple is the new scape goat of self-appointed bitcoin zealots. They are so afraid that something might threaten their golden goose (their investment) that they hack at every bit of innovation this community has to bring. It was the same thing with Bitcoin forks like litecoin. And now they got a new target ripples potential became obvious. They are the true "weak hands".

They are the best anti-indicator I know of. Point #1 all the way!

[notme]

Ripple is the new scape goat of self-appointed bitcoin zealots. They are so afraid that something might threaten their golden goose (their investment) that they hack at every bit of innovation this community has to bring. It was the same thing with Bitcoin forks like litecoin. And now they got a new target ripples potential became obvious. They are the true "weak hands".

They are the best anti-indicator I know of. Point #1 all the way!

Ripple is quite interesting, but BitcoinAshley raises some valid points. I won't be using it until I can read the code and at least have the option of running my own server.

[bitwhizz]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220577.0

[afbitcoins]

Ripples can be shut down but what if the authorities actually embrace it and rather than shut it down promote in the media take control of it, and use it as the basis for a centrally controlled bank controlled debt based monetary system?

[alxs]

There are 2 things very interesting IMO with ripple:

1) Jed McCaleb is a developer.  
2) Big VC money, Google, has invested in ripple.

These 2 facts tell me ripple is not going to die anytime soon.  

Some gamblers on this forum are betting that ripple will overtake btc.

Recent posts about BMOT (bitmessageopentransactions) = the death of ripple are premature.

People forget the power of marketing, and google is master of marketing.

Currency wars are well underway.  We all know crypto-currency will ultimately win,
but when and how is a mystery to us all.

[crazy_rabbit]

Yes, it is a threat. It's designed to monetize the idea of Bitcoin and make the founder ludicrously rich. We shall see how it works out.

[mufa23]

Ripple is dumb. Not going to bother ranting on and on. Just saying now before there is problems: I warned you.

[gizmoh]

Does Ripple has a Money Transmitting license in the USA since they are located there?
It is a clear case for shutdown if not, issuing money 'like' in USA..
 

[Missionary]

Ripple NEEDS to fail! It's a cancer on the Bitcoin ecosystem.

It's centralized and closed source. It's nothing like bitcoin and any further association is bad for the Bitcoin.

[afbitcoins]

Ripple NEEDS to fail! It's a cancer on the Bitcoin ecosystem.

It's centralized and closed source. It's nothing like bitcoin and any further association is bad for the Bitcoin.

But it must be open, the company is called OpenCoin 

[smoothie]

This is the basic fail of many scams on this forum and the bitcoin community:

1. Fail to prove anything you claim.
2. make crazy stupid claims that sucker people into giving you money.
3. Rinse and repeat.

[EuroTrash]

Can't help but noticing that current price of XRP is too high for the number of XRPs produced. And Opencoin is supposed to give away another billion XRP to mailing list subscribers before the end of this month. Which hasn't happened so far. And their lips are sealed about it.

I'm speculating that while the underlying idea is good, the illusion of power and control that comes with it could corrupt even Opencoin's best minds.

[viboracecata]

We need both good money and bad money in crypto coin community.

so I vote for first option.

[herzmeister]

1. I'm afraid XRP as a currency will take some market share from Bitcoin, if Ripple becomes successful. The Ripple system is much more traceable than Bitcoin, that's why Google is interested. Most folks out there are not privacy-aware and just don't care.

2. Also, Ripple will allow Bitcoin-IOUs and thus enable fractional reserve lending with Bitcoin. It will practically extend the 21 million money supply.

It's senseless to bash on Ripple. If ripple.com fails, someone else will pick up these ideas. It's only a question of time. The market space for digital currencies has been opened, and there will be many players over time.

[Endgame]

Ripple shows considerable promise as a method of exchange, and for funding other exchanges.  When it comes to actually making transactions however, or storing value, I think bitcoin will always be the preferred option.

[afbitcoins]

1. I'm afraid XRP as a currency will take some market share from Bitcoin, if Ripple becomes successful. The Ripple system is much more traceable than Bitcoin, that's why Google is interested. Most folks out there are not privacy-aware and just don't care.

2. Also, Ripple will allow Bitcoin-IOUs and thus enable fractional reserve lending with Bitcoin. It will practically extend the 21 million money supply.

It's senseless to bash on Ripple. If ripple.com fails, someone else will pick up these ideas. It's only a question of time. The market space for digital currencies has been opened, and there will be many players over time.

Quite a sober anaylsis, you probably right that fractional reserve lending with bitcoin is inevitable, but the thought of it makes me want to paint my face blue and run around shouting 'Freeeedom!!!'

[Missionary]

I am afraid that Ripple will be presented as an integral part of the Bitcoin network, thus when their true intentions finally show it's going to reflect bad on Bitcoin.

[ArticMine]

The issuers of Ripple debt are going to be in the regulators cross-hairs in a big way if they are large enough in order for their debt to be considered trustworthy and consequently liquid. Considerer what would happen if Liberty Reserve had issued Liberty Reserve dollars over Ripple and then the US Government seizes the underlying assets. Those who were short the Ripple Liberty Reserve debt would see gains similar to those who have been long Bitcoin.

[mgio]

Ripple is going to fail.

- It's pre-mined and OpenCoin and the creators are keeping most of the coins. Why would I willingly give them money? Especially at this point when Ripple is 100% useless.
- It is centralized and prone to government regulation and shutdown.
- It is not open-source, and is debatable whether it will ever be.


Presently the market cap of Ripple is larger than that of Bitcoin. To me that says it is over-valued and definitely not worth investing in.

[AmazonStuff]

Could not watch BTC free-falling anymore and I exchanged all my BTC to XRP, wish me luck, I barely know anything about Ripple

[afbitcoins]

Could not watch BTC free-falling anymore and I exchanged all my BTC to XRP, wish me luck, I barely know anything about Ripple

where can you exchange? I have some vastly overvalued XRP i want to swap for bitcoins.

[bitcoinbear]

Could not watch BTC free-falling anymore and I exchanged all my BTC to XRP, wish me luck, I barely know anything about Ripple

where can you exchange? I have some vastly overvalued XRP i want to swap for bitcoins.

You can exchange right in Ripple. The ripple client has a built in exchange feature where you can trade your XRP for BTC/BitStamp, which you can then withdraw to BitStamp and send to whatever wallet you want.

[afbitcoins]

Could not watch BTC free-falling anymore and I exchanged all my BTC to XRP, wish me luck, I barely know anything about Ripple

where can you exchange? I have some vastly overvalued XRP i want to swap for bitcoins.

You can exchange right in Ripple. The ripple client has a built in exchange feature where you can trade your XRP for BTC/BitStamp, which you can then withdraw to BitStamp and send to whatever wallet you want.

cheers, i don't have a bitstamp account but will see if i can create one.

[afbitcoins]

Have to say I'm slightly alarmed by the number of people who think ripple will help the bitcoin economy!!!! (At the time of posting 32%) Does fiat money help gold and siver? no. exactly.

Someone please explain to me how it helps bitcoin  

This is my take http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/ripples-a-debt-based-centrally-controlled-monetary-system/

[bitcoinbear]

Someone please explain to me how it helps bitcoin  

Bitcoins have limits. There is a limit on the number of transactions in each block, and there is a limit in how frequently money can be moved (because you have to wait for confirmations). If some of the transactions are moved to Ripple, where there are no limits on number of transaction and confirmation is almost instantaneous, then the total size of the bitcoin+ripple economy can be much larger than by just using bitcoins.

[b!z]

Ripple won't kill Bitcoin, and Bitcoin won't kill Ripple.
They are systems that can work well together.

[afbitcoins]

Someone please explain to me how it helps bitcoin  

Bitcoins have limits. There is a limit on the number of transactions in each block, and there is a limit in how frequently money can be moved (because you have to wait for confirmations). If some of the transactions are moved to Ripple, where there are no limits on number of transaction and confirmation is almost instantaneous, then the total size of the bitcoin+ripple economy can be much larger than by just using bitcoins.

That seems to me to help ripple but actually have potential negative impact on bitcoins. Imagine a scenario where the amount of 'bitcoin' transactions happening on ripple is bigger than that on the bitcoin network. In effect a large slice of the bitcoin economy has been chopped away and absorbed by a centrally controlled debt based system. If you think ripple will end up becoming open source and decentralized you have more faith than me.   

The best thing about bitcoins are the hard limits, you know the quantity, you know when it has been verified, you can inspect the blockchain, its all out there in the open. And you hold the actual asset. If a large part of the economy has disappeared off to ripple suddenly you dont really know much anymore.  Bitcoin has been opened up to manipulation. Bitcoins throne will have been swiped from under its feet.

[afbitcoins]

I'd forgotten about this thread!

Hi tokeweed whats the countdown for ?

Is that when the bitcoin singularity will happen ?

[underground_]

I'd forgotten about this thread!

Hi tokeweed whats the countdown for ?

Is that when the bitcoin singularity will happen ?

http://www.thebitcointrader.com/2013/09/opencoin-aiming-to-open-source-ripple.html

[Coinseeker]

There is so much fundamentally wrong in this thread, it's hard to know where to start but let's start with the title.

Ripples a threat to Bitcoin?

I assume you mean XRP, the internal crypto currency and not Ripple, the p2p payment network.  I think Bitcoin trumps XRP at least for now, because of it's abilities as a store of value.  If XRP was ever to be an actual competitor of Bitcoin, it would actually be years and years down the road and only because users choose XRP over BTC.  But for no other reason.

It's important for people to note and understand the difference.  If you don't like XRP, don't use it.  Aside from minimum account requirements for tx fees to prevent spam, XRP can be irrelevant.  Although it does have it's advantages within the Ripple payment network.

The payment network, that is Ripple, is not a crypto currency.  It's a decentralized, P2P payment network, allowing users to transact in any currency they choose.  BTC, LTC, FTC, PPC, USD, EUR, CAD, INR, etc.  With Ripple, now you don't have to beg merchants to accept your crypto of choice, merchants simply integrate with the Ripple network, similar to integrating with say, Paypal or Authorize.net.  It becomes another method for merchants to accept payment but this one allows for payments in crypto and fiat currencies.

For the merchant that dosen't want to directly accept BTC or LTC, no problem.  They can choose to only receive payment in fiat currency.  However, you the buyer can still pay the merchant in any currency you choose.  Send the BTC and the Ripple network will automatically find the cheapest path to convert your BTC into the currency the merchant requires.  Everybody is happy and transactions happen in seconds not minutes or even hours, which can be the case sometimes with the blockchain.

Ripple makes up for the weaknesses in the payment network surrounding Bitcoin, etc.  Whether it's internal crypto, XRP, is "better" than Bitcoin is totally subjective and irrelevant to the brilliance and benefit that the Ripple payment network provides to all the crypto world.

EDIT:  Just realized this was an old thread, bumped.  Oh well...

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Quite a sober anaylsis, you probably right that fractional reserve lending with bitcoin is inevitable, but the thought of it makes me want to paint my face blue and run around shouting 'Freeeedom!!!'

Of course fractional reserve lending will take place.  By itself I don't think it is a bad thing, it's just that the system obscures somewhat that your money is being lent out/used for other purposes in order to gain a profit.  The advantage with bitcoin is that if you just want to preserve your money without counterparty risk, you can do this pretty easily, in a currency that won't be inflated away infinitely.

[afbitcoins]

I'd forgotten about this thread!

Hi tokeweed whats the countdown for ?

Is that when the bitcoin singularity will happen ?

http://www.thebitcointrader.com/2013/09/opencoin-aiming-to-open-source-ripple.html

The bitcoin trader sold out

[afbitcoins]

There is so much fundamentally wrong in this thread, it's hard to know where to start but let's start with the title.

Ripples a threat to Bitcoin?

I assume you mean XRP, the internal crypto currency and not Ripple, the p2p payment network.  I think Bitcoin trumps XRP at least for now, because of it's abilities as a store of value.  If XRP was ever to be an actual competitor of Bitcoin, it would actually be years and years down the road and only because users choose XRP over BTC.  But for no other reason.

It's important for people to note and understand the difference.  If you don't like XRP, don't use it.  Aside from minimum account requirements for tx fees to prevent spam, XRP can be irrelevant.  Although it does have it's advantages within the Ripple payment network.

The payment network, that is Ripple, is not a crypto currency.  It's a decentralized, P2P payment network, allowing users to transact in any currency they choose.  BTC, LTC, FTC, PPC, USD, EUR, CAD, INR, etc.  With Ripple, now you don't have to beg merchants to accept your crypto of choice, merchants simply integrate with the Ripple network, similar to integrating with say, Paypal or Authorize.net.  It becomes another method for merchants to accept payment but this one allows for payments in crypto and fiat currencies.

For the merchant that dosen't want to directly accept BTC or LTC, no problem.  They can choose to only receive payment in fiat currency.  However, you the buyer can still pay the merchant in any currency you choose.  Send the BTC and the Ripple network will automatically find the cheapest path to convert your BTC into the currency the merchant requires.  Everybody is happy and transactions happen in seconds not minutes or even hours, which can be the case sometimes with the blockchain.

Ripple makes up for the weaknesses in the payment network surrounding Bitcoin, etc.  Whether it's internal crypto, XRP, is "better" than Bitcoin is totally subjective and irrelevant to the brilliance and benefit that the Ripple payment network provides to all the crypto world.

EDIT:  Just realized this was an old thread, bumped.  Oh well...

This is my opinion
http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/ripples-a-debt-based-centrally-controlled-monetary-system/

[Stephen Gornick]

Have to say I'm slightly alarmed by the number of people who think ripple will help the bitcoin economy!!!! (At the time of posting 32%) Does fiat money help gold and siver? no. exactly.

You confuse the Bitcoin economy (use of Bitcoin's payment network) with the value of a bitcoin (use of bitcoins as a currency).

Certainly Bitcoin has value due to its unique properties, so if some competitor has similar properties and takes "market share" away from Bitcoin that will decrease the demand for bitcoins and thus a lower exchange rate.

But my interest in seeing Bitcoin succeed has more to do with seeing an alternative to fiat become widely used, not to maximize the Bitcoin exchange rate.

Ripple makes up for the weaknesses in the payment network surrounding Bitcoin, etc.

Bingo.  Anything that adds to Bitcoin's utility should be welcomed.  I just was at an event in which silver was one of the payment methods accepted.  Let's say I only had bitcoins.   I could have used Ripple to convert my bitcoins to DYM (voucher), and the merchant would then receive silver:

Introducing Ripple Currency: DYM
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149533.msg3219655#msg3219655

Both of us would have been happy.   Neither of us would have touched fiat.  That, ... would have been a win.

[notme]

Have to say I'm slightly alarmed by the number of people who think ripple will help the bitcoin economy!!!! (At the time of posting 32%) Does fiat money help gold and siver? no. exactly.

You confuse the Bitcoin economy (use of Bitcoin's payment network) with the value of a Bitcoin (use of bitcoins as a currency).

Certainly Bitcoin has value due to its unique properties, so if some competitor has similar properties and takes "market share" away from Bitcoin that will decrease the demand for bitcoins and thus a lower exchange rate.

But my interest in seeing Bitcoin succeed has more to do with seeing an alternative to fiat become widely used, not to maximize the Bitcoin exchange rate.

Ripple makes up for the weaknesses in the payment network surrounding Bitcoin, etc.

Bingo.  Anything that adds to Bitcoin's utility should be welcomed.  I just was at an event in which silver was one of the payment methods accepted.  Let's say I only had bitcoins.   I could have used Ripple to convert my bitcoins to DYM (voucher), and the merchant would then receive silver:

Introducing Ripple Currency: DYM
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149533.msg3219655#msg3219655

Both of us would have been happy.   Neither of us would have touched fiat.  That, ... would have been a win.

The only problem being that any currency besides XRP in the Ripple system is only an IOU.  Not necessarily a problem if you are dealing with people you can trust, but not something that should be glossed over.

[Coinseeker]

Have to say I'm slightly alarmed by the number of people who think ripple will help the bitcoin economy!!!! (At the time of posting 32%) Does fiat money help gold and siver? no. exactly.

You confuse the Bitcoin economy (use of Bitcoin's payment network) with the value of a Bitcoin (use of bitcoins as a currency).

Certainly Bitcoin has value due to its unique properties, so if some competitor has similar properties and takes "market share" away from Bitcoin that will decrease the demand for bitcoins and thus a lower exchange rate.

But my interest in seeing Bitcoin succeed has more to do with seeing an alternative to fiat become widely used, not to maximize the Bitcoin exchange rate.

Ripple makes up for the weaknesses in the payment network surrounding Bitcoin, etc.

Bingo.  Anything that adds to Bitcoin's utility should be welcomed.  I just was at an event in which silver was one of the payment methods accepted.  Let's say I only had bitcoins.   I could have used Ripple to convert my bitcoins to DYM (voucher), and the merchant would then receive silver:

Introducing Ripple Currency: DYM
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149533.msg3219655#msg3219655

Both of us would have been happy.   Neither of us would have touched fiat.  That, ... would have been a win.

The only problem being that any currency besides XRP in the Ripple system is only an IOU.  Not necessarily a problem if you are dealing with people you can trust, but not something that should be glossed over.

Every Bitcoin being traded on any exchange is an IOU.  It's not that it needs to be glossed over, it's that people need to understand what an IOU is.  An IOU is simply a balance.  The USD or BTC "balance" in your Gox or Bitstamp account are simply IOU's.  Gox or Bitstamp "owe" you that balance.  You "trust" them to give it back when you ask for it.  Ripple just lifts the veil...while it is shocking to some at first, it's only because you didn't realize that nearly everything you do with currency is via IOU.  The balance you see in the ATM is an IOU.  The amount you see in your Paypal or Dwolla account is an IOU.  

You don't trade on an exchange (IOU issuer) you don't trust, you don't bank with a bank (IOU issuer) you don't trust and in Ripple, you shouldn't use a gateway (IOU issuer) you don't trust.  It's all really that simple. Nothing stops you from emptying your bank account and storing the cash in your mattress, just as nothing prevents you from withdrawing your BTC back to your wallet for storage.  

On another note, I'm very happy to see the unscientific poll results to be where they are.  It shows that not only are more and more people finally beginning to understand Ripple, but that more and more people actually care about crypto and the fiat problems it solves more than just a single crypto currency.  It's the tech that's disruptive, not the brand.

[Keldel]

Money in Ripple is debt based... Don't know about you, but I think the world had enough of those.

Only non-debt-based money in Ripple is the XRP. It doesn't offer any advantage to bitcoin. All XRP supply is centrally controlled by OpenCoin.

[dillpicklechips]

Ripple is interesting but I think they made a major mistake with XRP. (Other than not open sourcing right away). XRP was intended not as a currency but as a spam preventative measure. Too many people saw XRP as an investment like Bitcoin and that should have been made more clear from the beginning that it is not a currency but a way of entering the ripple ecosystem. Now we have XRP over valued and the creator has TONS of them left and a lot of influence on future price. They control the market. What they should have done is made a clear "goal price" for XRP. And by controlling the flow of how they unload their massive amount of XRP they can maintain a "goal price". They should have given themselves a huge amount of XRP and given/sold XRP out one at a time. 1 XRP = 1 USD for example as a "best price". Perhaps a company that does it differently would be more successful but with a different name? Or would that even work?

[underground_]

Ripple is interesting but I think they made a major mistake with XRP. (Other than not open sourcing right away). XRP was intended not as a currency but as a spam preventative measure. Too many people saw XRP as an investment like Bitcoin and that should have been made more clear from the beginning that it is not a currency but a way of entering the ripple ecosystem. Now we have XRP over valued and the creator has TONS of them left and a lot of influence on future price. They control the market. What they should have done is made a clear "goal price" for XRP. And by controlling the flow of how they unload their massive amount of XRP they can maintain a "goal price". They should have given themselves a huge amount of XRP and given/sold XRP out one at a time. 1 XRP = 1 USD for example as a "best price". Perhaps a company that does it differently would be more successful but with a different name? Or would that even work?

You can't just say that something is or isn't a currency and have it be so. Bitcoin isn't money because Satoshi called it that. It's money because we choose, based on its properties, to use it that way. XRPs have real value on the ripple network:

1. There is a finite supply of them.
2. Every wallet requires a few XRPs for its initial funding.
3. Every transaction destroys a small fraction of an XRP, thereby adding to the value    of all remaining units.

How much should an XRP be worth? That's like asking how much a bitcoin should be worth. If the network takes off, then it'll probably be a lot higher than it is today. Of course, Opencoin could decide to flood the market with all of their XRPs and crash the price, but Satoshi could do the same with bitcoin. At least we know what opencoin's intentions are. They hope the ripple network will grow and that their XRPs will gain in value. What's Satoshi planning on doing with his 1M+ bitcoins?

[goldlyre]

Of my total holdings on crypto currencies, 98% of present value is in Bitcoin, 1% in Litecoin, and 1% in Ripple XRPs. Bircoin may secceed in the future, so are Litecoin & Ripple. Who knows! May be it's a win-win, not threat at all.

[ninjarobot]

Ripples are like stamps. Stamps are hardly a good store of value.

[sinner]

not at all

[niothor]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

[Coinseeker]

Ripples are like stamps. Stamps are hardly a good store of value.

Even if that were true, what's your point?  How does that have anything to do with the Ripple payment network?

[Coinseeker]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

[rampantparanoia]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

fixed analogies:

a) go to the apple support forums & ask about 3rd party add-on products sold on ebay
b) go to a bmw forum and ask about servicing your vehicle at a mechanic not associated with BMW
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk, in the BITCOIN speculation forum (and not in the alt currency one)

[niothor]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

You missed the point.
If you talk about ios on an android forum -  what , that piece of rotten apple?
If you talk about a cla on a bmw forum - is that even a car?
If you talk about ripple on bitcointalk ... what? that piece of centralized shit?



My point is that some people are badmouthing ripple here just because in their view it is a threat to the 300k$ bitcoin.
Even if they don't have a clue how ripple works.
Same as the android and bmw fans who haven't once tried a mercedes or a iphone. And the other way around.
It's different than what I have  > It's garbage.

[ElectricMucus]

Actually it's mainly the five figure smear campaign of Tradefortress, and cognitive dissonance of the people here.

Litecoin used to be in the same predicament but it has risen by a factor of 50 since. I expect the anti-ripple choir to be even less successful. But their war is already lost.
With the largest functional Bitcoin exchange (bitstamp) being a ripple gateway, opencoin having more VC money than all Bitcoin ventures combined and Ripples as a real deflationary virtual asset. It will take off with or without Bitcoin. If Bitcoiners collectively decide to piss against the wind that's their predicament, but I don't think that will happen. Just watch what happens after XRP have some capital gains, suddenly the majority here will appear pro ripple, just like they are pro Litecoin.
The hardliners will still be around but they have nothing to do except grinding their teeth.

[xxjs]

Ripples are like stamps. Stamps are hardly a good store of value.

Fun fact: Charles Ponzi, who gave his name to the Ponzi scheme, traded in postal reply coupons, which can be traded for stamps.

[ElectricMucus]

Using "Fun fact" as a pretext for your fallacious argument doesn't suddenly make it hold ground, even with a sarcastic undertone.

[Ares]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

[ElectricMucus]

Resistance is futile.

srsrly 

[ninjarobot]

Ripples are like stamps. Stamps are hardly a good store of value.

Even if that were true, what's your point?  How does that have anything to do with the Ripple payment network?

It actually was a Ripple dev that made the stamp analogy (citation needed). My point is that stamps (XRP) are not a threat to currency (BTC). You need XRP to make transactions in the Ripple payment network. Personally I think the Ripple payment network with it's many payment gateways is really awesome. I just would not 'invest' in XRP.

[xxjs]

Using "Fun fact" as a pretext for your fallacious argument doesn't suddenly make it hold ground, even with a sarcastic undertone.

It wasn't an argument - it was just a fun fact.

[ElectricMucus]

Using "Fun fact" as a pretext for your fallacious argument doesn't suddenly make it hold ground, even with a sarcastic undertone.

It wasn't an argument - it was just a fun fact.

It's yet another fallacy.
By presenting your argument as a "fun fact" you are trying to distract from your fallacious argument and make it appear as it isn't argumentative while it is.
You are suggesting similarities between Charles Ponzi and Ripple using the stamp analogy.

You committed two fallacies at once.

[Odalv]

I do not believe ripple can transfer any significant(more than $5) amount of money (cash). ... lol, it is funny "network" with 10+ years of history and with no capability to process $10 :-)  ... it will never work.

Please REMOVE THIS THREAD FROM BITCOIN SPECULATION FORUM.

[yayayo]

Ripple is some kind of improved Paypal. Only with an added debt scheme.
Ripple contains a concealed premine. It is not decentralized.


Bitcoin is both a fully decentralized currency and a commodity.


Ripple cannot compete against Bitcoin. Ripple is outdated technology in a fancy design.


ya.ya.yo!

[xxjs]

Using "Fun fact" as a pretext for your fallacious argument doesn't suddenly make it hold ground, even with a sarcastic undertone.

It wasn't an argument - it was just a fun fact.

It's yet another fallacy.
By presenting your argument as a "fun fact" you are trying to distract from your fallacious argument and make it appear as it isn't argumentative while it is.
You are suggesting similarities between Charles Ponzi and Ripple using the stamp analogy.

You committed two fallacies at once.

So what is my argument?

[xxjs]

Using "Fun fact" as a pretext for your fallacious argument doesn't suddenly make it hold ground, even with a sarcastic undertone.

It wasn't an argument - it was just a fun fact.

It's yet another fallacy.
By presenting your argument as a "fun fact" you are trying to distract from your fallacious argument and make it appear as it isn't argumentative while it is.
You are suggesting similarities between Charles Ponzi and Ripple using the stamp analogy.

You committed two fallacies at once.

So what is my argument?

Se my take on ripple (which I don't understand fully, I admit):
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297287.msg3226115#msg3226115

[Coinseeker]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.  This has nothing to do with Ripple and everything to do with Bitcoin devs.  Unless the plan is to hide the weaknesses and flaws of Bitcoin and just seek to destroy everything thing else rising within the crypto space.  Good luck with that.  Doesn't seem to be working too well but, I suppose there is always hope.  I'm also sure Ripple was around long before I came on the scene.  My crypto born on date, is May 3rd, 2013 when I bought my first couple Bitcoins via Bitinstant -> ZipZap.  It was about a month after that I started to get into Ripple, so hate me if you want but at least get your facts straight.  

[sinner]

how do i cashout these dollars?

[Coinseeker]

how do i cashout these dollars?

Redeem them with the issuer of course.  

[notme]

Have to say I'm slightly alarmed by the number of people who think ripple will help the bitcoin economy!!!! (At the time of posting 32%) Does fiat money help gold and siver? no. exactly.

You confuse the Bitcoin economy (use of Bitcoin's payment network) with the value of a Bitcoin (use of bitcoins as a currency).

Certainly Bitcoin has value due to its unique properties, so if some competitor has similar properties and takes "market share" away from Bitcoin that will decrease the demand for bitcoins and thus a lower exchange rate.

But my interest in seeing Bitcoin succeed has more to do with seeing an alternative to fiat become widely used, not to maximize the Bitcoin exchange rate.

Ripple makes up for the weaknesses in the payment network surrounding Bitcoin, etc.

Bingo.  Anything that adds to Bitcoin's utility should be welcomed.  I just was at an event in which silver was one of the payment methods accepted.  Let's say I only had bitcoins.   I could have used Ripple to convert my bitcoins to DYM (voucher), and the merchant would then receive silver:

Introducing Ripple Currency: DYM
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149533.msg3219655#msg3219655

Both of us would have been happy.   Neither of us would have touched fiat.  That, ... would have been a win.

The only problem being that any currency besides XRP in the Ripple system is only an IOU.  Not necessarily a problem if you are dealing with people you can trust, but not something that should be glossed over.

Every Bitcoin being traded on any exchange is an IOU.  It's not that it needs to be glossed over, it's that people need to understand what an IOU is.  An IOU is simply a balance.  The USD or BTC "balance" in your Gox or Bitstamp account are simply IOU's.  Gox or Bitstamp "owe" you that balance.  You "trust" them to give it back when you ask for it.  Ripple just lifts the veil...while it is shocking to some at first, it's only because you didn't realize that nearly everything you do with currency is via IOU.  The balance you see in the ATM is an IOU.  The amount you see in your Paypal or Dwolla account is an IOU.  

You don't trade on an exchange (IOU issuer) you don't trust, you don't bank with a bank (IOU issuer) you don't trust and in Ripple, you shouldn't use a gateway (IOU issuer) you don't trust.  It's all really that simple. Nothing stops you from emptying your bank account and storing the cash in your mattress, just as nothing prevents you from withdrawing your BTC back to your wallet for storage.  

On another note, I'm very happy to see the unscientific poll results to be where they are.  It shows that not only are more and more people finally beginning to understand Ripple, but that more and more people actually care about crypto and the fiat problems it solves more than just a single crypto currency.  It's the tech that's disruptive, not the brand.

I understand all that.  Which is why most of my net worth is stored in offline bitcoin wallets.  I prefer to take responsibility for my own money.

[bitcoinBull]

Every Bitcoin being traded on any exchange is an IOU.  It's not that it needs to be glossed over, it's that people need to understand what an IOU is.  An IOU is simply a balance.  The USD or BTC "balance" in your Gox or Bitstamp account are simply IOU's.  Gox or Bitstamp "owe" you that balance.  You "trust" them to give it back when you ask for it.  Ripple just lifts the veil...while it is shocking to some at first, it's only because you didn't realize that nearly everything you do with currency is via IOU.  The balance you see in the ATM is an IOU.  The amount you see in your Paypal or Dwolla account is an IOU.  

You don't trade on an exchange (IOU issuer) you don't trust, you don't bank with a bank (IOU issuer) you don't trust and in Ripple, you shouldn't use a gateway (IOU issuer) you don't trust.  It's all really that simple. Nothing stops you from emptying your bank account and storing the cash in your mattress, just as nothing prevents you from withdrawing your BTC back to your wallet for storage.  

On another note, I'm very happy to see the unscientific poll results to be where they are.  It shows that not only are more and more people finally beginning to understand Ripple, but that more and more people actually care about crypto and the fiat problems it solves more than just a single crypto currency.  It's the tech that's disruptive, not the brand.

I understand all that.  Which is why most of my net worth is stored in offline bitcoin wallets.  I prefer to take responsibility for my own money.

XRP is also stored offline, the "secret key" you get when you create a ripple wallet is analogous to the private keys you can export on blockchain.info (on ripple.com/client, an encrypted blob is stored on payward.com and decrypted with your wallet name and password so the web-client can sign transactions with your secret key).

Now, even though you can take responsibility of your own private keys, your net worth is directly affected by problems at the major bitcoin exchanges. Especially when only one or two big exchanges maintain a monopoly (eg if trading lag at MtGox crashes your net worth). Centralized/"balkanized" bitcoin exchanges with wire transfers as the only way in and out are clearly a problem. Ripple is a solution for that (not saying that it's a perfect solution, but something that exists is better than something described in a proposal).

[notme]

Every Bitcoin being traded on any exchange is an IOU.  It's not that it needs to be glossed over, it's that people need to understand what an IOU is.  An IOU is simply a balance.  The USD or BTC "balance" in your Gox or Bitstamp account are simply IOU's.  Gox or Bitstamp "owe" you that balance.  You "trust" them to give it back when you ask for it.  Ripple just lifts the veil...while it is shocking to some at first, it's only because you didn't realize that nearly everything you do with currency is via IOU.  The balance you see in the ATM is an IOU.  The amount you see in your Paypal or Dwolla account is an IOU.  

You don't trade on an exchange (IOU issuer) you don't trust, you don't bank with a bank (IOU issuer) you don't trust and in Ripple, you shouldn't use a gateway (IOU issuer) you don't trust.  It's all really that simple. Nothing stops you from emptying your bank account and storing the cash in your mattress, just as nothing prevents you from withdrawing your BTC back to your wallet for storage.  

On another note, I'm very happy to see the unscientific poll results to be where they are.  It shows that not only are more and more people finally beginning to understand Ripple, but that more and more people actually care about crypto and the fiat problems it solves more than just a single crypto currency.  It's the tech that's disruptive, not the brand.

I understand all that.  Which is why most of my net worth is stored in offline bitcoin wallets.  I prefer to take responsibility for my own money.

XRP is also stored offline, the "secret key" you get when you create a ripple wallet is analogous to the private keys you can export on blockchain.info (on ripple.com/client, an encrypted blob is stored on payward.com and decrypted with your wallet name and password so the web-client can sign transactions with your secret key).

Now, even though you can take responsibility of your own private keys, your net worth is directly affected by problems at the major bitcoin exchanges. Especially when only one or two big exchanges maintain a monopoly (eg if trading lag at MtGox crashes your net worth). Centralized/"balkanized" bitcoin exchanges with wire transfers as the only way in and out are clearly a problem. Ripple is a solution for that (not saying that it's a perfect solution, but something that exists is better than something described in a proposal).

Good job ignoring context.

[Ares]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.

Now ask yourself, does that really sound complimentary, or threatening?

[Coinseeker]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.

Now ask yourself, does that really sound complimentary, or threatening?

You're confusing XRP with Ripple the payment network.  

[Ares]

Please do the following:

a) go to an android forum and ask about ios
b) go to a bmw fan forum and ask about the new cla
c) open a thread about ripple on bitcointalk

After that you might realize that you're asking the wrong questions in the wrong places!

A and B are bad analogies because they don't compliment each and are actual competitors, thus don't compare to the relationship Ripple and Bitcoin share.  Ripple is a compliment to Bitcoin not a competitor, so it is very relevant to this forum as Ripple will allow more people to access and transact in Bitcoin, off the blockchain.  

Even one of the devs who posts here said that down the line BTC and Ripples may compete and that "inside the Ripple network, ripples work better than bitcoins"

It's such an obvious Emabrace then Exterminate scheme.

You've been a shill for Ripple since its inception so go ahead an keep spewing how they compliment eachother (which they may, until Ripple becomes big enough to say "Ok, let's finally drop this whole BTC thing, Ripples/XRP work better in our network")

Maybe they will compete down the road.  That really depends on Bitcoin's ability to remain innovative, if it plans to stay relevant.

Now ask yourself, does that really sound complimentary, or threatening?

You're confusing XRP with Ripple the payment network.  

I made it clear I was talking about Ripples/XRP. Seeing as those are a necessity in order to use Ripple, you can't have on without the other. The network is playing all friendly with Bitcoiners, then once it's big enough, it will drop Bitcoin and say lets just use XRP instead because, as the dev admitted, it's better than Bitcoin within the ripple network. And then we're back to square one with a currency controlled by one group.

A lot will have to go right for Ripple in order for this scenario to come to fruition, but it's undoubtedly what the devs daydream about.

[bitcoinBull]

I made it clear I was talking about Ripples/XRP. Seeing as those are a necessity in order to use Ripple, you can't have on without the other. The network is playing all friendly with Bitcoiners, then once it's big enough, it will drop Bitcoin and say lets just use XRP instead because, as the dev admitted, it's better than Bitcoin within the ripple network. And then we're back to square one with a currency controlled by one group.

With bitcoin, we have "fair" coin distribution controlled by an algorithm (distributed in proportion to hash power). But to determine the market price, we are at the mercy of exchanges. And clearly the current system of exchanges (networked by bank transfers) is failing at this task.

Well, the transparency and decentralization that we love about bitcoin (everyone knows how many bitcoins there are, and no central authority can seize anyone's bitcoins), ripple brings to exchange: everyone knows how many IOUs there are (bitstamp gateway cap currently stands at $259,210 USD and 2,321 BTC), and exchanges are not capable of seizing a user's IOUs. Instead, IOUs are traded freely on the ripple network, just as bitcoins are sent freely (as in speech) within the bitcoin network.

So there is a trade-off: free/fair coin distribution but centralized/balkanized exchange, or unfair/corporate coin distribution but free/decentralized exchange. Maybe there is a better, fairer way to do decentralized exchange, but I haven't seen one that actually exists (not to say there aren't plenty of proposals. but something that actually exists is always better than something described in a proposal). And since this is the real-world, there are always going to be trade-offs. But a real-world with Ripple is MUCH, MUCH better than real-world without it (even if it does have countless utopian proposals).

Now that fair distribution of bitcoin is reason alone why it would never be completely dropped in favor of XRP. Bitcoin's distribution algorithm could be the rock which provides stability against the whims of OpenCoin market operations. It's been said elsewhere: ripple is the dollar for the gold. Sometimes people like dollars and sometimes people like gold. But to say that ripple is an enemy is very short-sighted. At the very least, its a frenemy. Strategically, it is clear to me what ripple is: an enemy of my enemy, is my friend.

[Coinseeker]

I made it clear I was talking about Ripples/XRP. Seeing as those are a necessity in order to use Ripple, you can't have on without the other. The network is playing all friendly with Bitcoiners, then once it's big enough, it will drop Bitcoin and say lets just use XRP instead because, as the dev admitted, it's better than Bitcoin within the ripple network. And then we're back to square one with a currency controlled by one group.

A lot will have to go right for Ripple in order for this scenario to come to fruition, but it's undoubtedly what the devs daydream about.

When you say, "it will drop Bitcoin...", who is it?   No matter what the answer, you're speaking from a place of ignorance.  You can't "drop" any currency because no currency exists within Ripple, except XRP.  The PEOPLE will choose what currencies they want to deal in, not the network.  To the network, all currencies are the same.  They have zero value.

News flash, you're already at square one with Bitcoin.  Bitcoin has received and continues to receive more press and publicity than anything in the crypto space and more than most startup businesses could ever dream of.  Yet, mass adoption = not imminent.  Why?  Because as I've said all along, Bitcoin has a PR problem of an illegal and radical nature.  Not to mention, Bitcoin is further shunned because implementation offers no benefits to consumers over fiat debit cards.  And that's simply because the Bitcoin payment network sucks.  Bitcoin needs the Ripple payment network.  

In Ripple, the people will decide what they prefer.  If you believe in Bitcoin, you should welcome the challenge of putting your "currency" side by side with the rest of the digital and fiat world's currencies and letting it survive or die on its own merits.  If you're insecure about the future of Bitcoin, I can see how labeling everything else a threat would be a natural reaction.

[zachcope]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

If governments don't like unlicensed money transfer I'm sure they'll love unlicensed and unregulated issuers of debt when they start turning up with their 7 foot mates to encourage non payers to cough up, especially if the id of the debt issuers is forged, spoofed etc.

To issue debt you need to be completely traceable and your identity known, as well as the identity of the person taking the debt, or else the system is useless.

[afbitcoins]

XRP is also stored offline, the "secret key" you get when you create a ripple wallet is analogous to the private keys you can export on blockchain.info (on ripple.com/client, an encrypted blob is stored on payward.com and decrypted with your wallet name and password so the web-client can sign transactions with your secret key).

Now, even though you can take responsibility of your own private keys, your net worth is directly affected by problems at the major bitcoin exchanges. Especially when only one or two big exchanges maintain a monopoly (eg if trading lag at MtGox crashes your net worth). Centralized/"balkanized" bitcoin exchanges with wire transfers as the only way in and out are clearly a problem. Ripple is a solution for that (not saying that it's a perfect solution, but something that exists is better than something described in a proposal).

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

[afbitcoins]

An earlier commenter said you could equate ripple versus bitcoin as being like the dollar versus gold. This is a good comparison I think. The battle today between dollar and gold is a battle between unlimited debt and assets with hard limits, just as ripple is unlimited debt versus assets like bitcoin.


If a group of bankers gathered together to concieve a system to demasculate and control crytpo currency like bitcoin and litecoin, ripple is what they would come up with !   

Who is funding OpenCoin anyway ?

[bitcoinBull]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

Bitcoin exchanges already are central points of failure! And MtGox's bank has limited them to ten(!!) SWIFT transfers per day. The exchange situation is a clusterfuck - that's why we see the ridiculous spread between mtgox price and bitstamp price.

How are the MtGox IOUs enforced? MtGox maintains utter and complete control over its IOUs - remember when they used to allow MtGox USD codes? They removed them. A ripple gateway would never be able to control its IOUs like that - a gateway's IOUs trade freely on the ripple order books.

Why would someone think trying to sell the ability to create IOUs to bitcoiners would give them anything but shit and drama? Debt Stinks... I should know 

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

LocalBitcoins - and now we are back to the SneakerNet - a time before the internet!! And then you get the LocalBitcoins exchangers who want to sell them at the MtGox price. No, there is a better way which takes advantage of the internet and technology utilizing next-gen cryptocurrency for decentralized exchange: Ripple.

[zachcope]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

Bitcoin exchanges already are central points of failure! And MtGox's bank has limited them to ten(!!) SWIFT transfers per day. The exchange situation is a clusterfuck - that's why we see the ridiculous spread between mtgox price and bitstamp price.

How are the MtGox IOUs enforced? MtGox maintains utter and complete control over its IOUs - remember when they used to allow MtGox USD codes? They removed them. A ripple gateway would never be able to control its IOUs like that - a gateway's IOUs trade freely on the ripple order books.

Why would someone think trying to sell the ability to create IOUs to bitcoiners would give them anything but shit and drama? Debt Stinks... I should know 

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

LocalBitcoins - and now we are back to the SneakerNet - a time before the internet!! And then you get the LocalBitcoins exchangers who want to sell them at the MtGox price. No, there is a better way which takes advantage of the internet and technology utilizing next-gen cryptocurrency for decentralized exchange: Ripple.

MTGox =/= BTC

[afbitcoins]

Bitcoin - no inflation, no central point of control, no chargebacks, enables confirmed transactions with no trust.

Ripple - central points of failure, more ripples and xrp could be issued by central issuer, relies on trust and debt in gateways and those issuing the IOUs.

How will the ripple IOUs be enforced?

Bitcoin exchanges already are central points of failure! And MtGox's bank has limited them to ten(!!) SWIFT transfers per day. The exchange situation is a clusterfuck - that's why we see the ridiculous spread between mtgox price and bitstamp price.

How are the MtGox IOUs enforced? MtGox maintains utter and complete control over its IOUs - remember when they used to allow MtGox USD codes? They removed them. A ripple gateway would never be able to control its IOUs like that - a gateway's IOUs trade freely on the ripple order books.

Why would someone think trying to sell the ability to create IOUs to bitcoiners would give them anything but shit and drama? Debt Stinks... I should know  

Centralized bitcoin exchanges are not the only way in and out !!! you can do private exchanges just as easily, just like cash. LocalBitcoins is a similar method for facilitating private exchanges.

LocalBitcoins - and now we are back to the SneakerNet - a time before the internet!! And then you get the LocalBitcoins exchangers who want to sell them at the MtGox price. No, there is a better way which takes advantage of the internet and technology utilizing next-gen cryptocurrency for decentralized exchange: Ripple.

MTGox =/= BTC

Holy smoke! If I had 900 Bitcoins I would not be holding that in an exchange. I accept your point about exchanges, I hold all my bitcoins in my own wallet. Those are not IOU's

On another thread someone said the ripple ledger is completely transparent. Is that true ? Might revise my opinion a bit if thats the case, and if its built in that it has to be the case.
However my main doubts are how can you trust a centralised network?  What if the authorities close it down and you lose all your funds? What if Opencoin decides to start inflating XRP? you only have their word that they won't create more. With bitcoin I don't have such doubts.

Also nobody ever answers the question of who funds OpenCoin ?? Are banks behind it? Its a simple question.

[rampantparanoia]

@afbitcoins

venture capitalists http://www.crunchbase.com/company/opencoin

[windjc]

Actually it's mainly the five figure smear campaign of Tradefortress, and cognitive dissonance of the people here.

Litecoin used to be in the same predicament but it has risen by a factor of 50 since. I expect the anti-ripple choir to be even less successful. But their war is already lost.
With the largest functional Bitcoin exchange (bitstamp) being a ripple gateway, opencoin having more VC money than all Bitcoin ventures combined and Ripples as a real deflationary virtual asset. It will take off with or without Bitcoin. If Bitcoiners collectively decide to piss against the wind that's their predicament, but I don't think that will happen. Just watch what happens after XRP have some capital gains, suddenly the majority here will appear pro ripple, just like they are pro Litecoin.
The hardliners will still be around but they have nothing to do except grinding their teeth.

Saying opencoin has more VC than all the other bitcoin related ventures combined is simply not true. Why would you state this? Bitcoin related projects have accrued much more VC capital in total and on top of that a substantially greater amount of bitcoin related VC has been set aside for future investment.

What agenda do you have, exactly?

[bitcoinBull]

Holy smoke! If I had 900 Bitcoins I would not be holding that in an exchange. I accept your point about exchanges, I hold all my bitcoins in my own wallet. Those are not IOU's

Right, but if you ever want to trade bitcoins on an exchange, you will need to deposit them on that exchange (turning them into IOUs). So all the FUD about ripple and IOUs is a nonsense comparison to a straw-man world where bitcoins are never bought and sold online. Even with ripple, obviously you can still withdraw bitcoin IOUs to your wallet on the blockchain (nobody would use it if you couldn't). They even implemented the "bitcoin bridge" to make that a seamless process.

On another thread someone said the ripple ledger is completely transparent. Is that true? Might revise my opinion a bit if thats the case, and if its built in that it has to be the case.

Yes, its true. For example, rhcGNgtHR7RRNdRgSc1EJuU7jZ23XUbRVx is the address of someone who just paid $226.81 of bitstamp USD for 21,773.76 XRP. Another address is rMLtFZE6ZvLkiRet8Bncs8EZEWQYXyXixN. That guy loves to play RippleFlip, we can see all the payments he's sent to rFLiP... (rippleFlip's address).

However my main doubts are how can you trust a centralised network?  What if the authorities close it down and you lose all your funds? What if Opencoin decides to start inflating XRP? you only have their word that they won't create more. With bitcoin I don't have such doubts.

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

[afbitcoins]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger 

edit. Thanks for the conversation, I'm learning things about ripple i didn't know. 

[bitcoinBull]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger.

Yes, a single global decentralized ledger. Just like the bitcoin blockchain - there's only one (unless you count forks), its global, and its decentralized.

[afbitcoins]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger.

Yes, a single global decentralized ledger. Just like the bitcoin blockchain - there's only one (unless you count forks), its global, and its decentralized.

which makes me wonder how come its transactions are so much quicker.. ?

[bitcoinBull]

The 100 billion XRP cap is built into the protocol, there is no way to change without forking the ledger or convincing all the gateways. Your XRP funds are secure in the decentralized ledger (just save protect your secret key like you would protect your bitcoin wallet), the authorities would have to close down every gateway all over the world until there is no place left to buy and sell XRP. Ripple was inspired by the very same aspects we like about bitcoin (except mining, which obviously hasn't gone over well with miners). Even the ledger consensus process is borrowed from the way bitcoin transactions are broadcast among the nodes.

decentralised ledger? I understood ripple uses a single global ledger.

Yes, a single global decentralized ledger. Just like the bitcoin blockchain - there's only one (unless you count forks), its global, and its decentralized.

which makes me wonder how come its transactions are so much quicker.. ?

How Ripple Works - The Consensus Process (ADVANCED)

[Coinseeker]

Ripple is now officially open source.   

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301635.0

[btcgoldsilver]

Going open source and changing the name to ripplelabs seems like a good move on the surface but I think youre better off with honest money, like gold silver and bitcoins. Ripple can keep its debts

[smoothie]

Time will tell. I think not.

[zachcope]

2014 email transcript:

USA Somalian Mo: cousin I have sent the money for your daughter's medication, 2000000 xrp are on there way to you.

Somalian cousin Mohamed : Do you hate me? Why do you send this ripple shit. The Americans are clamping down on Somali debt all around the world - the Indians will charge me twice that for the medications now from a Somali gateway because of the risk. Do you want me to become a pirate?

USA Mo: ha ha I am pulling your leg - I have sent bitcoins

Somali Mo : blessings to you and your family cousin.

2025 email transcript:

Somali Mo:
Cousin I can finally repay your kindness in saving my daughter. As you know business is good in BitSomalia - I have sent you 5000000000 ripples (I am glad they printed more!) for you to buy your Roboheart.

USA Mo: do you look down on me from your mansion? What have I done to deserve this? The Chinese don't want any more crap American ripple debt! Butterflyheartrobolabs Shanghai  will charge me 5 times as much, and only for a preorder! Do you want me to sell my antique unwashed original ripped Hulk Hogan shirt? For that is all I have left in this world. After that my only choice left is to join the NRA Terrorist Group!

Somali Mo: oh cousin life must be hard is your USofA. It is sad all the IT companies left. But fear not I was joking you - 0.1 bitcoin is on its way!

USA Mo: Allah's blessings upon you kind cousin...

[ElectricMucus]

2014 email transcript:

USA Somalian Mo: cousin I have sent the money for your daughter's medication, 2000000 xrp are on there way to you.

Somalian cousin Mohamed : Do you hate me? Why do you send this ripple shit. The Americans are clamping down on Somali debt all around the world - the Indians will charge me twice that for the medications now from a Somali gateway because of the risk. Do you want me to become a pirate?

USA Mo: ha ha I am pulling your leg - I have sent bitcoins

Somali Mo : blessings to you and your family cousin.

2025 email transcript:

Somali Mo:
Cousin I can finally repay your kindness in saving my daughter. As you know business is good in BitSomalia - I have sent you 5000000000 ripples (I am glad they printed more!) for you to buy your Roboheart.

USA Mo: do you look down on me from your mansion? What have I done to deserve this? The Chinese don't want any more crap American ripple debt! Butterflyheartrobolabs Shanghai  will charge me 5 times as much, and only for a preorder! Do you want me to sell my antique unwashed original ripped Hulk Hogan shirt? For that is all I have left in this world. After that my only choice left is to join the NRA Terrorist Group!

Somali Mo: oh cousin life must be hard is your USofA. It is sad all the IT companies left. But fear not I was joking you - 0.1 bitcoin is on its way!

USA Mo: Allah's blessings upon you kind cousin...

I suggest you start bringing that fiction into reality right now!

[b!z]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

[afbitcoins]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

[ElectricMucus]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

Bitstamp uses it instead of codes, if you factor in exchanges it is. Deal with it.

[b!z]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

It is designed to complement BTC and other currencies, not replace them. How well it complements them is a debatable topic.

[Argwai96]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

It is designed to complement BTC and other currencies, not replace them. How well it complements them is a debatable topic.

true, but if btc is used as a payment system, then ripple can, to some extent, replace it in that capacity. instead of having btc because it is easy to transfer, people might hold various other currencies and transfer them through ripple without touching btc.

[anu]

I say Ripples will try and eat bitcoins liver but what do you think

Ripple is a way of doing things, not a particular implementation. The idea is not very new - it is more than 5000 years old and surfaced under various names, for example Hawala, Hundi or Angadia, to name just a few modern variants. Yet despite of being about as old as gold as a means of payment, it did not kill gold - quite the opposite! There is a lot of synergy.

So why would Ripple kill Bitcoin? Bitcoin is a commodity, like Gold. Ripple is debt, like Hawala. I see the Ripple principle (not necessarily the company and their implementation) as complementary to Bitcoin. Together, they can truly democratize money. That is why I am writing an unencumbered Ripple implementation:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295930.0

[Coinseeker]

No, Ripple is designed to complement Bitcoin.

Hogwash

It is designed to complement BTC and other currencies, not replace them. How well it complements them is a debatable topic.

true, but if btc is used as a payment system, then ripple can, to some extent, replace it in that capacity. instead of having btc because it is easy to transfer, people might hold various other currencies and transfer them through ripple without touching btc.

So is Bitcoin ready to stand against the world's currencies or is it so flawed and inadequate as a currency, that it will crumble in the face of any adversity?  Is this also the reason there are always, "Is X a threat to Bitcoin" threads and diehard Bitcoiners seek to destroy anything trying to occupy the crypto space?  And should it fall, is Ripple really to blame?

To me, this is what makes Ripple beautiful.  Sure, XRP could compete with any other crypto, because it is crypto.  But the bigger plus here, is the world gets access to choice.  Many Bitcoiners would just like to shove BTC down everyones throats as the ONLY currency moving forward.  Pure silliness.  Put all fiat and all crypto, side by side in a payment network like Ripple and let the people decide what they like.  Maybe they'll choose Bitcoin, maybe they won't.  

My guess is they will always choose a wide variety of currencies, at least for the foreseeable future.  Bitcoin devs should spend more time making Bitcoin the top choice because it's great based on merit, rather than simply trying to hide it's flaws and bad mouthing everything non-Bitcoin.

[afbitcoins]

bitcoins has a payment network doesn't it ? Ripples is attempting to become a monopoly on payment networks and absorb all others. Is it not trying to centralise a decentralised network ?

On topic of gold as money and fiat as debt based money doesnt work, they aren't complimentary. Currently fiat has displaced gold entirely. Eventually sound money will replace debt, and so it goes, on and on 

[Coinseeker]

bitcoins has a payment network doesn't it ? Ripples is attempting to become a monopoly on payment networks and absorb all others. Is it not trying to centralise a decentralised network ?

Bitcoin's payment networks sucks. That's one key reason most people aren't adopting Bitcoin and that's why Bitcoin needs Ripple.  Ripple is simply attempting to federate all payment networks and since Ripple doesn't generate revenue, how could it be deemed a monopoly?  Is HTTP a monopoly?  How about SMTP?    

[zachcope]

Ripple gateways will take various assets - bitcoins, USD, Euros, gold bullion etc and issue IOUs.
These are redeamable across the network.

This could work fine for a bit.
Then the gateways would realise they have all these assets sitting about that don't need to be traded immediately.
Perhaps they invest them, or use them to pay off a few business costs such as AML bonds or business bribes depending on the country. Perhaps they convert the assets to another currency for a bit.
All works well for a bit.

Then boom! some kind of worldwide shock occurs, such as dramatic change in gold price, invasion of a country or even capital controls and account robbing in previously untouchable developed world countries and currencies, such as Cyprus and the Euro.

Suddenly the value of an asset changes fast.

What happens if the gateway is holding its assets in the falling currency but owes locals in a variety of currencies?
What happens if companies have developed off Ripple relationships across borders to settle their on ripple IOUs?
What happens if govt steals the cash or stops it leaving the country?

Suddenly those gateways are subject to a credit run.

This can then diseminate across the whole ripple network as everyone sees what has happened and tries to redeem their IOUs quickly.

It's called a 'Bank Run' and is one of the inevitable consequences of fractional reserve lending in large leveraged economies.

What if the Ripple network becomes 'too big to fail' and the XRPs have to be inflated, punishing all savers and taxpayers to the benefit of the banks / gateways?

Bitcoin has a built in release valve as the currency can be withdrawn to private hands long before the problem spirals out of control in the way a debt based network will.

---

If tl;dr:
Ripple is shit.
Bitcoin amazes me every day.   

[Coinseeker]

Sounds like Mt. Gox, Bitstamp, Coinbase or any other BTC exchange for that matter.  What prevents them from doing the same?  Seems your issue is short sighted.  You're trying to lump Ripple -a payment network- with a gateway.  How a gateway operates is completely up to the gateway and it's completely up to the users if you wish to do business with that gateway.  

For example, I lost faith in Mt. Gox and thus will not do business with them.  I need to know that my fiat IOU's at Gox are redeemable and as we can all see, they are not.  So it's an easy fix...stop doing business with Gox.  It's no different in Ripple.  Same common sense principles apply.  Ripple just makes this clear.  Not to mention, we don't have to wait a freaking hour for a single transaction to take place.  

[zachcope]

You cannot compare MTGOX to the problems of the Ripple network.
The Ripple network is only as strong as the Gateways. If Ripple Gateways go down the whole system fails as who no the Ripple network would trust anonymous new gateways and accept their IOUs? I might trust my mate Fred the Gateway with a few bitoins to change to Ripple IOUs but the network would have no incentive to trust him without a hefty risk surcharge.

Bitcoin however could exist as face to face transacted currency if need be without needing and centralised trust system.

Bitcoin's strength is that is that is takes all power AWAY from gateways (ie Legacy Banks) as well as those who control currency (National Treasuries).
Gox may well bleed to death but that by no means represents a catastrophic failure of bitcoin.
If Gox were the main Ripple Gateway however the shock to the Ripple trust system would be far greater.

Many points of trust = many points of failure, whether that's by incompetence, malchance, malign actions by participants or by government actions.
The response to this would be gateway failure leaving the Ripple network with a surplus of unawnted IOUs.

Bitcoin could thrive in Africa, South America and many other countries without any need for trust in what is happening in the other countries that use Bitcoin.
In this analogy:
Ripple gateways = Legacy Banks.
OpenCoin (or whatever they are called) = Central National Treasuries.

[ElectricMucus]

If mtgox goes down Bitcoin is going to fractional digits.  It's holding almost the entire accumulated worth (fiat money) Bitcoin derives it's value from and no way to compensate for it. The only way around that is ripple mass adoption or something similar which could supply liquidity very quickly. In that sense Ripple would save Bitcoin.
On the other hand you "if the gateways go down" would be the equivalent of every single exchange shutting down.

[windjc]

If mtgox goes down Bitcoin is going to fractional digits.  It's holding almost the entire accumulated worth (fiat money) Bitcoin derives it's value from and no way to compensate for it. The only way around that is ripple mass adoption or something similar which could supply liquidity very quickly. In that sense Ripple would save Bitcoin.
On the other hand you "if the gateways go down" would be the equivalent of every single exchange shutting down.

Kindly tell us approximately how much fiat is stored at Mtgox. Also, please tell us how much fiat is stored in the other exchanges combined as well as transactional exchange averages from Localbitcoin.

Please back this opinion up with some actual data, so that we can understand exactly how much of the "almost entire accumulated worth (fiat money) Bitcoin derives it's value from" is actually stored on Mtgox.

Thanks. Can't wait. Should be enlightening.

[ElectricMucus]

If mtgox goes down Bitcoin is going to fractional digits.  It's holding almost the entire accumulated worth (fiat money) Bitcoin derives it's value from and no way to compensate for it. The only way around that is ripple mass adoption or something similar which could supply liquidity very quickly. In that sense Ripple would save Bitcoin.
On the other hand you "if the gateways go down" would be the equivalent of every single exchange shutting down.

Kindly tell us approximately how much fiat is stored at Mtgox. Also, please tell us how much fiat is stored in the other exchanges combined as well as transactional exchange averages from Localbitcoin.

Please back this opinion up with some actual data, so that we can understand exactly how much of the "almost entire accumulated worth (fiat money) Bitcoin derives it's value from" is actually stored on Mtgox.

Thanks. Can't wait. Should be enlightening.

You are asking me for data I can't access, is that your argumentation tactic?
There was just above 20M USD in the order-book on mtgox and it's safe to assume that's still there. I don't think there is a significant amount more on it, what's really happening is anyones guess.

Orders on localbitcoins or OTC do not represent actual money nor bitcoins. Especially in cases where stupid people do the thing "if bitcoins drop to XX I'll buy XXXYY worth" they do not have actual money anywhere but just put it in there just to have the option to do it should they come across the money by then. They would be quite reluctant to pay even those prices without the price fixing taking place on Gox.
With ripple on the other hand there is a better chance of actual liquidity since its trust lines require participants to well be honest about their financial situation.

May my answer inspire critical thinking rather than a religious experience.

[afbitcoins]

Sounds like Mt. Gox, Bitstamp, Coinbase or any other BTC exchange for that matter.  What prevents them from doing the same?  Seems your issue is short sighted.  You're trying to lump Ripple -a payment network- with a gateway.  How a gateway operates is completely up to the gateway and it's completely up to the users if you wish to do business with that gateway.  

For example, I lost faith in Mt. Gox and thus will not do business with them.  I need to know that my fiat IOU's at Gox are redeemable and as we can all see, they are not.  So it's an easy fix...stop doing business with Gox.  It's no different in Ripple.  Same common sense principles apply.  Ripple just makes this clear.  Not to mention, we don't have to wait a freaking hour for a single transaction to take place.  

I'm noticing a recurrent theme among ripple enthusiast that ripple gateways are the same as bitcoin exchanges.

Gateways != Bitcoin exchange

[ElectricMucus]

Sounds like Mt. Gox, Bitstamp, Coinbase or any other BTC exchange for that matter.  What prevents them from doing the same?  Seems your issue is short sighted.  You're trying to lump Ripple -a payment network- with a gateway.  How a gateway operates is completely up to the gateway and it's completely up to the users if you wish to do business with that gateway. 

For example, I lost faith in Mt. Gox and thus will not do business with them.  I need to know that my fiat IOU's at Gox are redeemable and as we can all see, they are not.  So it's an easy fix...stop doing business with Gox.  It's no different in Ripple.  Same common sense principles apply.  Ripple just makes this clear.  Not to mention, we don't have to wait a freaking hour for a single transaction to take place.   

I'm noticing a recurrent theme among ripple enthusiast that ripple gateways are the same as bitcoin exchanges.

Gateways != Bitcoin exchange

It's more like
Bitcoin Ripple gateways ⊂ Bitcoin exchanges.

[afbitcoins]

Sounds like Mt. Gox, Bitstamp, Coinbase or any other BTC exchange for that matter.  What prevents them from doing the same?  Seems your issue is short sighted.  You're trying to lump Ripple -a payment network- with a gateway.  How a gateway operates is completely up to the gateway and it's completely up to the users if you wish to do business with that gateway. 

For example, I lost faith in Mt. Gox and thus will not do business with them.  I need to know that my fiat IOU's at Gox are redeemable and as we can all see, they are not.  So it's an easy fix...stop doing business with Gox.  It's no different in Ripple.  Same common sense principles apply.  Ripple just makes this clear.  Not to mention, we don't have to wait a freaking hour for a single transaction to take place.   

I'm noticing a recurrent theme among ripple enthusiast that ripple gateways are the same as bitcoin exchanges.

Gateways != Bitcoin exchange

It's more like
Bitcoin Ripple gateways ⊂ Bitcoin exchanges.

Mucus, you say bitcoins will go to fractional digits if Mtgox goes down, when challenged for your analysis of why you state that you change subject.

I notice no-one comes up with a good explanation of why zachope run on gateways scenario won't happen.

Instead, another change of subject.   

 

[afbitcoins]

If mtgox goes down Bitcoin is going to fractional digits.  It's holding almost the entire accumulated worth (fiat money) Bitcoin derives it's value from and no way to compensate for it. The only way around that is ripple mass adoption or something similar which could supply liquidity very quickly. In that sense Ripple would save Bitcoin.
On the other hand you "if the gateways go down" would be the equivalent of every single exchange shutting down.

maybe when theres a run on the gateways, they could become 'too big to fail' and get bailed out with taxpayer money. That could save the ripple network.

[ElectricMucus]

What's a zachope run?

If you are asking me how ripple can supply liquidity better than mtgox or localbitcoins, it's because almost everybody can be a gateway, it's much easier than running an exchange so less points of failure. As of localbitcoins there are at least some insurances that IOUs are represented by real money because liquidity is determined by trust lines which function as some sort of decentalized financial assessment. Not perfect, but certainly better than nothing.

[afbitcoins]

Ripple gateways will take various assets - bitcoins, USD, Euros, gold bullion etc and issue IOUs.
These are redeamable across the network.

This could work fine for a bit.
Then the gateways would realise they have all these assets sitting about that don't need to be traded immediately.
Perhaps they invest them, or use them to pay off a few business costs such as AML bonds or business bribes depending on the country. Perhaps they convert the assets to another currency for a bit.
All works well for a bit.

Then boom! some kind of worldwide shock occurs, such as dramatic change in gold price, invasion of a country or even capital controls and account robbing in previously untouchable developed world countries and currencies, such as Cyprus and the Euro.

Suddenly the value of an asset changes fast.

What happens if the gateway is holding its assets in the falling currency but owes locals in a variety of currencies?
What happens if companies have developed off Ripple relationships across borders to settle their on ripple IOUs?
What happens if govt steals the cash or stops it leaving the country?

Suddenly those gateways are subject to a credit run.

This can then diseminate across the whole ripple network as everyone sees what has happened and tries to redeem their IOUs quickly.

It's called a 'Bank Run' and is one of the inevitable consequences of fractional reserve lending in large leveraged economies.

What if the Ripple network becomes 'too big to fail' and the XRPs have to be inflated, punishing all savers and taxpayers to the benefit of the banks / gateways?

Bitcoin has a built in release valve as the currency can be withdrawn to private hands long before the problem spirals out of control in the way a debt based network will.

---

If tl;dr:
Ripple is shit.
Bitcoin amazes me every day.   

[ElectricMucus]

Sure it can happen, but first people would change their trust lines accordingly once they become aware of a fractional reserve strategy of a counter-party and they would also do it if external circumstances change. You can't really protect against world-changing sudden events which take place so fast on its own that you can't react. But if people can react there is a chance a crisis can be averted.
I'm fairly certain that such a scenario would be less likely to occur than a run on the remaining exchanges should gox bite the dust.

[Coinseeker]

+1 EM.  It's staggering to me that with one hand people will attack Ripple gateways and with the other defend Bitcoin exchanges, when fundamentally, they are the exact same thing.    What makes any of you think Gox is holding the actual BTC/USD/EUR that the balances reflect?  What makes you so certain they are not engaged in the same practices you "assume" every gateway will engage in?  

You bash "IOU's" but as Gox began to show it's insolvency, the term "GoxUSD IOU" started to become second nature on this forum.  You were starting to finally get it.  It is an IOU and without trust, it loses value.  Hence the reason for the huge spread between Gox and the other exchanges.  And we saw what happened when a run on Gox happened...they started requiring verification, even for BTC withdrawals.  Was that because they genuinely wanted to comply?  Maybe but more than likely, it was to buy time because they are insolvent.  Their house of cards is collapsing.

Here's a key point so pay attention:  If you give your money to a third party, ANY third party, it's not your money anymore.  PERIOD!  You gave it away to someone else.  Especially in an unregulated crypto world such as this.  Some of you are just going to have to come to terms with that truth.  The question as a user that matters, is do you TRUST this third party to give it back when you ask for it.  Nothing makes a Ripple gateway or Bitcoin exchange inherently more or less trustworthy than the other.  Just because it's a "Bitcoin" exchange, dosen't make it more trustworthy and just because it's a "Ripple" gateway doesn't make it less trustworthy and vice versa.  They both have the equal ability to operate with a fractional reserve strategy.  

I'm sure just like Bitcoin, there are plenty of reasons to knock Ripple.  This isn't one of them.  If you don't want to deal with third parties, then don't.  Keep your crypto in your wallets and "hold it for the longest time."  But please, stop with these futile attempts at trying to tie fractional banking, exclusively to Ripple.  Anytime your crypto is outside of it's wallet, the risk is there.  Matters not, which payment network you're utilizing.

[zachcope]

+1 EM.  It's staggering to me that with one hand people will attack Ripple gateways and with the other defend Bitcoin exchanges, when fundamentally, they are the exact same thing.    What makes any of you think Gox is holding the actual BTC/USD/EUR that the balances reflect?  What makes you so certain they are not engaged in the same practices you "assume" every gateway will engage in?  

You bash "IOU's" but as Gox began to show it's insolvency, the term "GoxUSD IOU" started to become second nature on this forum.  You were starting to finally get it.  It is an IOU and without trust, it loses value.  Hence the reason for the huge spread between Gox and the other exchanges.  And we saw what happened when a run on Gox happened...they started requiring verification, even for BTC withdrawals.  Was that because they genuinely wanted to comply?  Maybe but more than likely, it was to buy time because they are insolvent.  Their house of cards is collapsing.

Here's a key point so pay attention:  If you give your money to a third party, ANY third party, it's not your money anymore.  PERIOD!  You gave it away to someone else.  Especially in an unregulated crypto world such as this.  Some of you are just going to have to come to terms with that truth.  The question as a user that matters, is do you TRUST this third party to give it back when you ask for it.  Nothing makes a Ripple gateway or Bitcoin exchange inherently more or less trustworthy than the other.  Just because it's a "Bitcoin" exchange, dosen't make it more trustworthy and just because it's a "Ripple" gateway doesn't make it less trustworthy and vice versa.  They both have the equal ability to operate with a fractional reserve strategy.  

I'm sure just like Bitcoin, there are plenty of reasons to knock Ripple.  This isn't one of them.  If you don't want to deal with third parties, then don't.  Keep your crypto in your wallets and "hold it for the longest time."  But please, stop with these futile attempts at trying to tie fractional banking, exclusively to Ripple.  Anytime your crypto is outside of it's wallet, the risk is there.  Matters not, which payment network you're utilizing.

Ok you will need to read this s l o w l y :

Bitcoin =/= Gox
B I T C O I N = / = G O X

I can send money to a third party with NO trust using bitcoin. No matter what other users are doing on the network the recipient of the bitcoins is able to spend them.
Ripple combines the debt and trust in its network. This gives actors in the network incentive to leverage the communal trust for their own schemes, either by financial gambling (where max gain is much higher than max loss due to debt leverage and default if you lose) or via more explicit fraud. Ripple incentivises bad behaviour in the same way legacy banking systems do already.

Bitcoin however puts the responsibility squarely on the owner of the coins, which is a form of liberty.

[Odalv]

+1 EM.  It's staggering to me that with one hand people will attack Ripple gateways and with the other defend Bitcoin exchanges, when fundamentally, they are the exact same thing.    What makes any of you think Gox is holding the actual BTC/USD/EUR that the balances reflect?  What makes you so certain they are not engaged in the same practices you "assume" every gateway will engage in?  

You bash "IOU's" but as Gox began to show it's insolvency, the term "GoxUSD IOU" started to become second nature on this forum.  You were starting to finally get it.  It is an IOU and without trust, it loses value.  Hence the reason for the huge spread between Gox and the other exchanges.  And we saw what happened when a run on Gox happened...they started requiring verification, even for BTC withdrawals.  Was that because they genuinely wanted to comply?  Maybe but more than likely, it was to buy time because they are insolvent.  Their house of cards is collapsing.

Here's a key point so pay attention:  If you give your money to a third party, ANY third party, it's not your money anymore.  PERIOD!  You gave it away to someone else.  Especially in an unregulated crypto world such as this.  Some of you are just going to have to come to terms with that truth.  The question as a user that matters, is do you TRUST this third party to give it back when you ask for it.  Nothing makes a Ripple gateway or Bitcoin exchange inherently more or less trustworthy than the other.  Just because it's a "Bitcoin" exchange, dosen't make it more trustworthy and just because it's a "Ripple" gateway doesn't make it less trustworthy and vice versa.  They both have the equal ability to operate with a fractional reserve strategy.  

I'm sure just like Bitcoin, there are plenty of reasons to knock Ripple.  This isn't one of them.  If you don't want to deal with third parties, then don't.  Keep your crypto in your wallets and "hold it for the longest time."  But please, stop with these futile attempts at trying to tie fractional banking, exclusively to Ripple.  Anytime your crypto is outside of it's wallet, the risk is there.  Matters not, which payment network you're utilizing.

Ok you will need to read this s l o w l y :

Bitcoin =/= Gox
B I T C O I N = / = G O X

I can send money to a third party with NO trust using bitcoin. No matter what other users are doing on the network the recipient of the bitcoins is able to spend them.
Ripple combines the debt and trust in its network. This gives actors in the network incentive to leverage the communal trust for their own schemes, either by financial gambling (where max gain is much higher than max loss due to debt leverage and default if you lose) or via more explicit fraud. Ripple incentivises bad behaviour in the same way legacy banking systems do already.

Bitcoin however puts the responsibility squarely on the owner of the coins, which is a form of liberty.

"legacy banking systems" are at least regulated, insured. Ripple is not.

[afbitcoins]

Coinseeker I'm not defending bitcoin exchanges  I agree those bitcoins held in exchanges are IOU, that is not relevant to the fact that the bitcoins in my wallet are an asset with no counter party risk, which i can send to anyone else who has a wallet as a direct transfer of an asset. Not an IOU.

If you can get past MtGox for one second.

Bitcoins is not IOUs

[Coinseeker]

Coinseeker I'm not defending bitcoin exchanges   I agree those bitcoins held in exchanges are IOU, that is not relevant to the fact that the bitcoins in my wallet are an asset with no counter party risk, which i can send to anyone else who has a wallet as a direct transfer of an asset. Not an IOU.

If you can get past MtGox for one second.

Bitcoins is not IOUs

Ok agreed and my comments weren't only aimed at you but the overall misconception by many.  That said, XRP's have no counter-party risk either and are not IOU's.  So again, we are right back where we started.  BTC not in a wallet is an IOU.  It is not exclusive to Ripple.  Ripple just allows the exchange of IOU's via distributed exchange, which no "Bitcoin" exchange can provide without Ripple.

[afbitcoins]

you're comparing pre-mined coins which can be minted at will by RippleLabs with bitcoins!!!! Yeah ok, thats just no comparison to me though.

[Coinseeker]

Ok you will need to read this s l o w l y :

Bitcoin =/= Gox
B I T C O I N = / = G O X

I can send money to a third party with NO trust using bitcoin. No matter what other users are doing on the network the recipient of the bitcoins is able to spend them.
Ripple combines the debt and trust in its network. This gives actors in the network incentive to leverage the communal trust for their own schemes, either by financial gambling (where max gain is much higher than max loss due to debt leverage and default if you lose) or via more explicit fraud. Ripple incentivises bad behaviour in the same way legacy banking systems do already.

Bitcoin however puts the responsibility squarely on the owner of the coins, which is a form of liberty.

I can do the exact same with XRP.  It's no different.  I don't have to deal in BTC IOU's if I choose not to.  So the "form of liberty" remains unchanged.  Using XRP as a bridge currency is what gives it the potential to be valuable.  One of the main reasons Ripple is superior to a Bitcoin payment network (Speaking of payment networks not currency verse currency) is that I can send payment in any currency I choose and the receiver can receive any currency they choose.  With the blockchain, I can only send BTC.  That's simply too limited for a world with well over 100 different currencies and that's not including all the digital currencies.  

And as we continue to see, business' are not going to adopt Bitcoin by itself.  It offers no real upside for business' or consumers. With the exception of Bitcoin as a store of value, almost all of Bitcoin's benefits are purely ideological but not actually beneficial to business' and users.   However, Ripple offers tremendous upside and gives crypto users a door to all business' that join the Ripple network.

[zachcope]

Ok you will need to read this s l o w l y :

Bitcoin =/= Gox
B I T C O I N = / = G O X

I can send money to a third party with NO trust using bitcoin. No matter what other users are doing on the network the recipient of the bitcoins is able to spend them.
Ripple combines the debt and trust in its network. This gives actors in the network incentive to leverage the communal trust for their own schemes, either by financial gambling (where max gain is much higher than max loss due to debt leverage and default if you lose) or via more explicit fraud. Ripple incentivises bad behaviour in the same way legacy banking systems do already.

Bitcoin however puts the responsibility squarely on the owner of the coins, which is a form of liberty.

I can do the exact same with XRP.  It's no different.  I don't have to deal in BTC IOU's if I choose not to.  So the "form of liberty" remains unchanged.  Using XRP as a bridge currency is what gives it the potential to be valuable.  One of the main reasons Ripple is superior to a Bitcoin payment network (Speaking of payment networks not currency verse currency) is that I can send payment in any currency I choose and the receiver can receive any currency they choose.  With the blockchain, I can only send BTC.  That's simply too limited for a world with well over 100 different currencies and that's not including all the digital currencies.  

And as we continue to see, business' are not going to adopt Bitcoin by itself.  It offers no real upside for business' or consumers. With the exception of Bitcoin as a store of value, almost all of Bitcoin's benefits are purely ideological but not actually beneficial to business' and users.   However, Ripple offers tremendous upside and gives crypto users a door to all business' that join the Ripple network.

You cannot send any payment in ripple. You can send Ripple IOUs. If I go to a Ripple gateway in Small Town USA and give them a fist full of Kenyan Shillings the gateway is still left with a fistfull of physical shillings it needs to convert somehow. Sending an IOU for Kenyan Shillings to another gateway doesn't help things, it only adds another layer of trust needed for the recipient.

So do you see that Ripple doesn't transfer currencies, only debt?



If you wish to transfer a currency I suggest using a currency that is suitable for this, without the need for any trust, such as Bitcoin BTC.

Ah I missed our little chats over the past few days of forum outage! 

[Gimmelfarb]

So do you see that Ripple doesn't transfer currencies, only debt?

If you wish to transfer a currency I suggest using a currency that is suitable for this, without the need for any trust, such as Bitcoin BTC.

this is semantics. with ripple, yes, you are transferring debt. and that debt, based on the issuer, has value. given liquidity, there is indeed much value in being able to send and receive in different currencies.

[zachcope]

So do you see that Ripple doesn't transfer currencies, only debt?

If you wish to transfer a currency I suggest using a currency that is suitable for this, without the need for any trust, such as Bitcoin BTC.

this is semantics. with ripple, yes, you are transferring debt. and that debt, based on the issuer, has value. given liquidity, there is indeed much value in being able to send and receive in different currencies.

This is NOT semantics.
People are losing their livelihood, their pensions and their wealth due to debt based banking systems. Developing countries are crippled by hyperinflation, leading to poverty and, in some areas, civil war and religious conflict. Bright minds are devoting their lives to working in the legacy debt based banking systems when they could be creating real wealth through advances in agriculture, engineering, medicine etc. Ex pats are unable to send money to their families in Africa, money that would allow the poor to make real investment and spending decisions and plan for the future. The lie of extensive fractional reserve banking only works when there are no other options, but fails when people jump off the hamster wheel and desert the banks and currencies altogether.

Debt based banking rapidly moves towards centralisation, regulation and lack of innovation, as it must as users of these services need their IOUs backed by central government. The alternative is an army of loan sharks.

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

Bitcoin is the Ocean rising up as a Tsunami to the legacy banking system.
Ripple is a water pistol.

 

[bitcoinBull]

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

[afbitcoins]

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

Good grief, here we are again with bitcoins are IOU's (on exchanges). That point has been agreed already. What other arguments do ripple fans have ?

Thanks to this and similar threads I feel like I am much better informed about ripple, however my initial distrust remains. The entire ripple network depends on trust. The entire bitcoin network  has trust built into it.

edit: bitcoin exchanges are not part of the bitcoin network. With ripples, gateways are a critical part of the network. As I've said before, bitcion exchanges are NOT the same as gateways! Bitcoins could function without any bitcoin exchanges.

[afbitcoins]

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

The price difference isn't really a trust thing, it's come about because MtGox isn't able to let users withdraw $US, I've written about this here http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/mtgox-price/

[bitcoinBull]

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

Good grief, here we are again with bitcoins are IOU's (on exchanges). That point has been agreed already. What other arguments do ripple fans have ?

Thanks to this and similar threads I feel like I am much better informed about ripple, however my initial distrust remains. The entire ripple network depends on trust. The entire bitcoin network (not counting exchanges as part of the network) has trust built into it.

The "bitcoin network" excluding exchanges? Then all you'd have is a blockchain of worthless digital blips (you know that localBitcoins exchangers rely on online exchanges, it is not an exclusive network).

It would be equivalent to a ripple ledger of nothing but XRP - there is no trust involved in holding XRPs. It is only if you want to hold gateway IOUs that you have to grant a trust line.

The price difference isn't really a trust thing, it's come about because MtGox isn't able to let users withdraw $US, I've written about this here http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/mtgox-price/

Right, users don't trust that MtGox can process USD withdrawals (aka redemption of USD IOUs). You can still initiate a withdrawal, but there's little trust that it will be processed any time soon. So it really is a trust thing, and it is not just semantics.

[zachcope]

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

Good grief, here we are again with bitcoins are IOU's (on exchanges). That point has been agreed already. What other arguments do ripple fans have ?

Thanks to this and similar threads I feel like I am much better informed about ripple, however my initial distrust remains. The entire ripple network depends on trust. The entire bitcoin network (not counting exchanges as part of the network) has trust built into it.

The "bitcoin network" excluding exchanges? Then all you'd have is a blockchain of worthless digital blips (you know that localBitcoins exchangers rely on online exchanges, it is not an exclusive network).

It would be equivalent to a ripple ledger of nothing but XRP - there is no trust involved in holding XRPs. It is only if you want to hold gateway IOUs that you have to grant a trust line.

The price difference isn't really a trust thing, it's come about because MtGox isn't able to let users withdraw $US, I've written about this here http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/mtgox-price/

Right, users don't trust that MtGox can process USD withdrawals (aka redemption of USD IOUs). You can still initiate a withdrawal, but there's little trust that it will be processed any time soon. So it really is a trust thing, and it is not just semantics.

You need to decide what is good about ripple.
The xrp ripple ledger fails against bitcoin in terms of security, decentralisation and ease of access to the network.
The IOU system does not represent a dramatic change from the legacy system, and is not enough to threaten bitcoin. In fact the need for trusted gateways and ious will threaten the xrp itself.

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

[Gimmelfarb]

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

seriously? where do you even come up with this stuff?

[rampantparanoia]

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

seriously? where do you even come up with this stuff?

cocaine is a hell of a drug.

[bitcoinBull]

You need to decide what is good about ripple.
The xrp ripple ledger fails against bitcoin in terms of security, decentralisation and ease of access to the network.
The IOU system does not represent a dramatic change from the legacy system, and is not enough to threaten bitcoin. In fact the need for trusted gateways and ious will threaten the xrp itself.

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

The IOU system in ripple is very much a dramatic change. It decentralizes IOUs in the same way that bitcoin decentralizes BTC. Do you know the total amount deposited at any given bank and the account numbers holding those bank deposits? On ripple you know, because its public knowledge in the ledger. You know the total capitalization of any particular gateway and you can see which ripple addresses hold how much of the IOUs from that gateway (eg current USD cap is $226k bitstamp IOUs and $81k snapswap IOUs). Just like everyone can see how many bitcoins are held at each bitcoin address, and add them all up to make sure they are less than 21 million. On ripple we can count the amount of XRP plus we can count the amount of exchange IOUs.

That makes ripple a threat to both the legacy banking system, and conventional bitcoin exchanges (which are just non-transparent interfaces to the legacy banking system).

Your analogy is fair as long we add that the stores are places where people can buy and sell bitcoins and everyone can see how many gift cards any particular store has in circulation.

[zachcope]

You need to decide what is good about ripple.
The xrp ripple ledger fails against bitcoin in terms of security, decentralisation and ease of access to the network.
The IOU system does not represent a dramatic change from the legacy system, and is not enough to threaten bitcoin. In fact the need for trusted gateways and ious will threaten the xrp itself.

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

The IOU system in ripple is very much a dramatic change. It decentralizes IOUs in the same way that bitcoin decentralizes BTC. Do you know the total amount deposited at any given bank and the account numbers holding those bank deposits? On ripple you know, because its public knowledge in the ledger. You know the total capitalization of any particular gateway and you can see which ripple addresses hold how much of the IOUs from that gateway (eg current USD cap is $226k bitstamp IOUs and $81k snapswap IOUs). Just like everyone can see how many bitcoins are held at each bitcoin address, and add them all up to make sure they are less than 21 million. On ripple we can count the amount of XRP plus we can count the amount of exchange IOUs.

That makes ripple a threat to both the legacy banking system, and conventional bitcoin exchanges (which are just non-transparent interfaces to the legacy banking system).

Your analogy is fair as long we add that the stores are places where people can buy and sell bitcoins and everyone can see how many gift cards any particular store has in circulation.

Thanks for the explanation.
You've illustrated an advantage of a Ripple network over legacy systems far more eloquently than the preceding 2 posters.
Not enough to convince me that 'Ripple is a threat to Bitcoin' as per the OP but, as the cryptocurrency scene is moving quickly, our respective views will be probably be proved correct or incorrect sooner rather than later.

[afbitcoins]

Bitcoinbull, I think I need to digest the implications of transparent ledger in ripple. How does that affect privacy? Is that not a way for central authorities to know everything about everyone?

With bitcoins as I understand it, anonymity is possible if you take correct precautions. What if RippleLabs give away your ripple addresses to govt for example ?

On a different note, those worthless blips on the blockchain can achieve value without any interface to the legacy banking networks. It would require faith in people that bitcoins are useful medium of exchange for payment of work and goods. Conversely the blips on the banking network could end up with no value too in a hyper inflation for example. The value comes from people's faith primarily.

Thanks for your posts (and to zachcope too)

[afbitcoins]

Bitcoinbull, I think I need to digest the implications of transparent ledger in ripple. How does that affect privacy? Is that not a way for central authorities to know everything about everyone?

With bitcoins as I understand it, anonymity is possible if you take correct precautions. What if RippleLabs give away your ripple addresses to govt for example ?

Thanks for your posts (and to zachcope too)

I'll take the lack of response from Ripple fans to infer that using Ripple cannot be done with any privacy

Another nail in the Ripples coffin 

[ElectricMucus]

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

[afbitcoins]

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

[ElectricMucus]

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

The ripple ledger doesn't store names. The people I trust would know my name, they would have to ask them.
And since the govt doesn't know the names of the people I trust either, I can't see how that would be accomplished.


It's more likely that the goverment gets out your bitcoin addresses from mtgox...verification duh.

[OnkelPaul]

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

You don't know very far.
Of course you can create new ripple accounts, just like you can create new addresses in your wallet or entirely new wallets with bitcoin clients.
There are some differences in handling which make multiple addresses in bitcoin much easier to generate (the bitcoin client supports it directly, while the standard ripple client only works well with just one account, and additional ripple accounts need to be funded just like the first one, so you should be careful to avoid linking the accounts through initial fund transfers).
The account keys are not created by RippleLabs, but are public/private key pairs generated by the client (and if you don't trust the Javascript client on the ripple.com website, you can download it and run it from your own server or even locally).

Onkel Paul

[afbitcoins]

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

You don't know very far.
Of course you can create new ripple accounts, just like you can create new addresses in your wallet or entirely new wallets with bitcoin clients.
There are some differences in handling which make multiple addresses in bitcoin much easier to generate (the bitcoin client supports it directly, while the standard ripple client only works well with just one account, and additional ripple accounts need to be funded just like the first one, so you should be careful to avoid linking the accounts through initial fund transfers).
The account keys are not created by RippleLabs, but are public/private key pairs generated by the client (and if you don't trust the Javascript client on the ripple.com website, you can download it and run it from your own server or even locally).

Onkel Paul

 

Thanks ripple fans, just making sure I understand. 

[tokeweed]

I say Ripples will try and eat bitcoins liver but what do you think

not at the rate bitcoin's going, no.

[bitcoinBull]

I say Ripples will try and eat bitcoins liver but what do you think

not at the rate bitcoin's going, no.

The good news is that it looks like the XPR price might be starting to decorrelate (unlike the March-June time period when the XRP increase was basically just riding BTC's coat-tail). BTC has gone up lately, but XRP has decreased.