Reporting Mt. Gox to the Japan Financial Services Agency

[Nagle]

i do believe that the 1k/day and 10k/month are limits they place on everyone to avoid regulation- gl with going after them but from what i've read they religiously consult legal advice and it seems they are in good standing. 

That's the threshold for reporting transactions.. It's actually Y100,000, currently about $1242. That's in addition to having to register as a money transfer service.

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[bitcoin.monger]

Most exchanges impose such limits simply because they don't want to deal with THE LAW.
Good luck running a bitcoin-based business with such limits! I'd rather deal with the reactos problem 

[tavi]

...what is the likely outcome of a successful complaint? It seems very possible to me that it'd be a big seizure of all computers, encryption keys and bank accounts then turned over to a team of forensic accountants. People with real money deposits would probably get their money back after an extended period, but it seems quite possible everyones BTC would be gone forever or at least held up indefinapermanently.

Ouch, I better get my shit out of MtGox soon. I don't have much time.
Once those government clowns get "involved" everything will be tied up for years! 

[bitcoin.monger]

    
A bank run on MtGox wil definetely make Bitcoin successful!

[sturle]

Well, Japan seems to have bigger problems than bitcoin these days... Did they fix the leaks in the nuclear reactors?
Maybe MtGox's problem is the lack of reliable power 

Their servers are located in the US.  Their bank accounts are located in France and The USA.  I don't know where their bitcoins are located, but I suppose the wallets are backed up in several locations.  Why would they have to register as a financial institution in Japan when none of the trading goes on there?  Why not France (for a having bank account?) or The USA?

[Timo Y]

Yeah, go ahead, report them and perhaps they will be shut down or forced to halt trading as they are tied up with red tape for months.   That is really going to help the bitcoin economy.

Honestly, what are you trying to achieve?

This is pioneer territory. Most internet startup companies run afoul of some regulation or another.  Even the giants like amazon, google, and ebay did when they started out with two or three people.  They simply don't have the resources to deal with the complexities of the regulation jungle at that stage.  If startups were forced to follow every conceivable regulation to the letter, we would never get any innovation. 

Don't like mtgox? Don't use them.

But please don't be a jerk. 

[Jack of Diamonds]

that won't do shit..
for all you know it could be some teenager running the MtGox server out of his mother's basement... or two 20yr olds running MtGox out of their garage (although not likely in Japan).

For all you know, you could just go to Google Maps. Or you could call Cerulean Tower and ask the receptionist if there's a company called Tibanne Co, Ltd. operating in the building.

It just so happens, it's in Shibuya, the most expensive district of Tokyo beside Shinjuku.

Even the owner's name is public. So no, it's not "two 20 year olds running MtGox out of their garage".

[Nagle]

Their servers are located in the US.

How do you know that?

A tracert ends at "proxlexic.com". That's an anti-DDOS protection service. They have huge bandwidth, drop attack packets, and forward good packets to the actual destination.  That's not where Mt. Gox's servers are.

[marvinmartian]

that won't do shit..
for all you know it could be some teenager running the MtGox server out of his mother's basement... or two 20yr olds running MtGox out of their garage (although not likely in Japan).

For all you know, you could just go to Google Maps. Or you could call Cerulean Tower and ask the receptionist if there's a company called Tibanne Co, Ltd. operating in the building.

It just so happens, it's in Shibuya, the most expensive district of Tokyo beside Shinjuku.

Even the owner's name is public. So no, it's not "two 20 year olds running MtGox out of their garage".

Ok, so it's a rich guy and two twenty-somethings.

[bitcoin.monger]

sturle, I may be wrong on this one, but I guess that when you're incorporated in a jurisdiction you have to follow the legislation of that jurisdiction, regardless of where your servers and bank accounts are located. Also, if you happen to be a citizen of the US of A, you have to follow the American law regardless what you do and where you do it 

Case in point: e-gold. the guy was an American citizen, and the feds nailed him for money laundering although his company and servers were somewhere else...

[Nagle]

Case in point: e-gold. the guy was an American citizen, and the feds nailed him for money laundering although his company and servers were somewhere else...

Customers are still trying to get their value out of E-Gold. The gold was there, but it's been seized by the US,

[dr.bitcoin]

Naaaah, you think so? 

[sturle]

sturle, I may be wrong on this one, but I guess that when you're incorporated in a jurisdiction you have to follow the legislation of that jurisdiction, regardless of where your servers and bank accounts are located.

It is far more complicated than that.  A company incorporated in  The Netherlands can't come to my country, open a brothel and sell cannabis, because it is illegal here.  But a company incorporated in my country can open a coffee shop and sell cannabis and prostitutes in Amsterdam, because it is legal there.  It is not only about where the company is incorporated.  Where the business is being done is more important.  For tax reasons as well.  It is not obvious to me that MtGox should register with the Japan Financial Services Agency as long as they don't offer any financial services in Japan, but I assume a foreign bank which offer such services in Japan would have to register.

I don't know the history behind E-gold.  According to Wikipedia they operated and offered their services from Florida, USA.

[PatrickHarnett]

that won't do shit..
for all you know it could be some teenager running the MtGox server out of his mother's basement... or two 20yr olds running MtGox out of their garage (although not likely in Japan).

For all you know, you could just go to Google Maps. Or you could call Cerulean Tower and ask the receptionist if there's a company called Tibanne Co, Ltd. operating in the building.

It just so happens, it's in Shibuya, the most expensive district of Tokyo beside Shinjuku.

Even the owner's name is public. So no, it's not "two 20 year olds running MtGox out of their garage".

I like Shibuya and I'll be at Cerulean Tower in a couple of weeks.  You don't need to be rich to live there, smart helps.

plus, this Neagle guy - if he wants all this to fail so badly, why is he spending so much time here (I saw his great website via another of his down with everything posts.)

[TheGer]

Shhh  we're not supposed to talk about that. 

Well, Japan seems to have bigger problems than bitcoin these days... Did they fix the leaks in the nuclear reactors?
Maybe MtGox's problem is the lack of reliable power 

+1 (and the US as well don't we have a meltdown going now too?)

[Valalvax]

sturle, I may be wrong on this one, but I guess that when you're incorporated in a jurisdiction you have to follow the legislation of that jurisdiction, regardless of where your servers and bank accounts are located.

It is far more complicated than that.  A company incorporated in  The Netherlands can't come to my country, open a brothel and sell cannabis, because it is illegal here.  But a company incorporated in my country can open a coffee shop and sell cannabis and prostitutes in Amsterdam, because it is legal there.  It is not only about where the company is incorporated.  Where the business is being done is more important.  For tax reasons as well.  It is not obvious to me that MtGox should register with the Japan Financial Services Agency as long as they don't offer any financial services in Japan, but I assume a foreign bank which offer such services in Japan would have to register.

I don't know the history behind E-gold.  According to Wikipedia they operated and offered their services from Florida, USA.

Actually, not to argue semantics and be a jackass, I think Amsterdam has made it illegal for foreigners to sell cannabis, I know that they've made it illegal to sell to foreigners, I saw where they were making a big fuss over it

[i dig bitcoins]

Do it.  It's long overdue.  I'm surprised the Japanese government hasn't cracked down on them already, it's only a matter of time...

I don't have any money trapped in Mt. Gox. Many of the people who do have a good reason to file a complaint. Especially since Mt. Gox just missed their re-opening deadline yet again.

Something is very, very wrong at Mt. Gox. Millions of dollars may be lost if action isn't taken.

Serves those people right.  Anyone stupid enough to trade at a shady, completely unregulated exchage deserves to get their money stolen.  Welcome to the real world of no regulation.  It's going to be a rough lesson for a lot of people.

And when you trade in a regulated market such as wallstreet your money STILL gets stolen but this time the thieves have the authorities on their side. AyeYo, i'm usually very calm but jackassess like yourself don't really know what the HELL you are spouting from that anus you call a mouth. As for a lot of people learning a rough lesson, I don't really believe that they need a moron such as yourself to remind them of the total assfucking they recieved during 2008 up till now. There are regulations on the 'W. Street' but those regulations benefit you know who so i'll take no regulation as opposed to regulation that only benefits those greedy pricks in Washington. AyeYo in closing, just shut the fuck up and impart your knowledge to your wife, kids, or dogs but don't do that shit here...now get lost

[AyeYo]

Do it.  It's long overdue.  I'm surprised the Japanese government hasn't cracked down on them already, it's only a matter of time...

I don't have any money trapped in Mt. Gox. Many of the people who do have a good reason to file a complaint. Especially since Mt. Gox just missed their re-opening deadline yet again.

Something is very, very wrong at Mt. Gox. Millions of dollars may be lost if action isn't taken.

Serves those people right.  Anyone stupid enough to trade at a shady, completely unregulated exchage deserves to get their money stolen.  Welcome to the real world of no regulation.  It's going to be a rough lesson for a lot of people.

And when you trade in a regulated market such as wallstreet your money STILL gets stolen but this time the thieves have the authorities on their side. AyeYo, i'm usually very calm but jackassess like yourself don't really know what the HELL you are spouting from that anus you call a mouth. As for a lot of people learning a rough lesson, I don't really believe that they need a moron such as yourself to remind them of the total assfucking they recieved during 2008 up till now. There are regulations on the 'W. Street' but those regulations benefit you know who so i'll take no regulation as opposed to regulation that only benefits those greedy pricks in Washington. AyeYo in closing, just shut the fuck up and impart your knowledge to your wife, kids, or dogs but don't do that shit here...now get lost

Did I strike a nerve?  Seems that I did.

Does it suck knowing that Mt.Gox can pack up shop and disappear at any moment, taking all your money and Bitcoins with it... and you have absolutely no recourse.  You don't even have any contact information besides an email address.  Who are you going to cry to? 

Do you realize Mt.Gox and all these other exchanges can very well be feeding you incorrect data and trading against you?  Like I said, welcome to no regulation land.  I hope you enjoy your raping.

[tvbcof]

Do it.  It's long overdue.  I'm surprised the Japanese government hasn't cracked down on them already, it's only a matter of time...

I don't have any money trapped in Mt. Gox. Many of the people who do have a good reason to file a complaint. Especially since Mt. Gox just missed their re-opening deadline yet again.

Something is very, very wrong at Mt. Gox. Millions of dollars may be lost if action isn't taken.

Serves those people right.  Anyone stupid enough to trade at a shady, completely unregulated exchage deserves to get their money stolen.  Welcome to the real world of no regulation.  It's going to be a rough lesson for a lot of people.

And when you trade in a regulated market such as wallstreet your money STILL gets stolen but this time the thieves have the authorities on their side. AyeYo, i'm usually very calm but jackassess like yourself don't really know what the HELL you are spouting from that anus you call a mouth. As for a lot of people learning a rough lesson, I don't really believe that they need a moron such as yourself to remind them of the total assfucking they recieved during 2008 up till now. There are regulations on the 'W. Street' but those regulations benefit you know who so i'll take no regulation as opposed to regulation that only benefits those greedy pricks in Washington. AyeYo in closing, just shut the fuck up and impart your knowledge to your wife, kids, or dogs but don't do that shit here...now get lost

Did I strike a nerve?  Seems that I did.

Does it suck knowing that Mt.Gox can pack up shop and disappear at any moment, taking all your money and Bitcoins with it... and you have absolutely no recourse.  You don't even have any contact information besides an email address.  Who are you going to cry to? 

Do you realize Mt.Gox and all these other exchanges can very well be feeding you incorrect data and trading against you?  Like I said, welcome to no regulation land.  I hope you enjoy your raping.

I personally expect that they could, though my biggest concern is that they (MtGox, TradeHill, etc) will be shut down by our 'protectors' and my funds will be frozen.

To mitigate, I simply don't put funds there that I cannot afford to lose, and I only keep the funds with them that I actually need for my trading.  It is delightfully simple to convert to BTC and move them out.  I can barely wait until I have enough of a position in BTC to wish to sell some (though I'll likely not be interested in playing the markets when I reach that point.)  Then I'll be able to fund my account without the time and cost of wire transfers.

[i dig bitcoins]

Do it.  It's long overdue.  I'm surprised the Japanese government hasn't cracked down on them already, it's only a matter of time...

I don't have any money trapped in Mt. Gox. Many of the people who do have a good reason to file a complaint. Especially since Mt. Gox just missed their re-opening deadline yet again.

Something is very, very wrong at Mt. Gox. Millions of dollars may be lost if action isn't taken.

Serves those people right.  Anyone stupid enough to trade at a shady, completely unregulated exchage deserves to get their money stolen.  Welcome to the real world of no regulation.  It's going to be a rough lesson for a lot of people.

And when you trade in a regulated market such as wallstreet your money STILL gets stolen but this time the thieves have the authorities on their side. AyeYo, i'm usually very calm but jackassess like yourself don't really know what the HELL you are spouting from that anus you call a mouth. As for a lot of people learning a rough lesson, I don't really believe that they need a moron such as yourself to remind them of the total assfucking they recieved during 2008 up till now. There are regulations on the 'W. Street' but those regulations benefit you know who so i'll take no regulation as opposed to regulation that only benefits those greedy pricks in Washington. AyeYo in closing, just shut the fuck up and impart your knowledge to your wife, kids, or dogs but don't do that shit here...now get lost

Did I strike a nerve?  Seems that I did.

Does it suck knowing that Mt.Gox can pack up shop and disappear at any moment, taking all your money and Bitcoins with it... and you have absolutely no recourse.  You don't even have any contact information besides an email address.  Who are you going to cry to? 

Do you realize Mt.Gox and all these other exchanges can very well be feeding you incorrect data and trading against you?  Like I said, welcome to no regulation land.  I hope you enjoy your raping.

Ayeyo,

I very much still disagree on your position but that is not why I'm posting. Your response to my ranting proves to me that you are not a TROLL as you did not incite further inflammatory remarks (i did not consider your response inflammatory because i truly feel that you believe what you say.) This shows that you at least have some modicum of character which is hard to find nowadays, and for that I would like to publicly apologize to you for my insulting post. I am not usually like this, and I am sorry for taking it out on you. Best of luck and have a good day