Butterfly Labs Announces Bulk Chip Sales

[Kernel32]

We have enough chips on order to satisfy all preorders. Any orders we make now to satisfy bulk chip sales would come after the chips arrive for the pre-orders.

Does anyone know how many pre-orders they have?

Hi. This might help you. http://bfl.ptz.ro/ It's a list of some people that received Jalapenos so far (and more unlucky ones still waiting to give you the whole disastrous picture - considering most people did not register in that form, this is HUGE ...). ....................

They (butterflies) sort of managed to scam people even if they deliver product at the (far away) end. Very creative.

Read more in PuertoLibre's signature above if curious how that is even possible.

........... But as soon as Hercules got competition, the prices became reasonable very quickly.

The prices are always determined by market and costumers. That's OK. The only problem I have is BFL's full-charged-preorder-but-no-delivery policy.

[Bitcoinorama]

If people are willing to pay outrageous prices, the producer is a fool to NOT offer outrageous prices while he has a defacto monopoly. When somebody credible comes to market at lower prices, ASICMiner products will lower theirs to something more reasonable. Right now they are mining fools as much as bitcoins. And if you have ever studied the history of gold rushes, mining fools is often initially much more profitable. Friedcat isn't screwing anyone. He's just allowing fools to screw themselves. And he IS delivering the product.

He isnt screwing anyone, of course.

I think that in the longterm, if he sells thousands of these, he might create thousands of haters, who didnt break even and then rant on Bitcoin. If he is into it selling long term, he might make more money not pissing customers off that later say "Ah, i wont buy new, i wont break even anyway."

Hard decision. Short term i agree with you.

Still it's not sharing the love, or the wealth to be *potentially made. It's centralising profits to themselves and leaving their *customers with a product that may...or may not give some reward one day in the future. I see no difference there between ASICminer and putting my money in a modern bank with a piss poor interest, other than I'm putting myself out to change funds to bitcoin and acquire a device which I'm then responsible to ensure remains working, whilst they profit!

To me that's an utterly selfish and stupid reason to sell at such a price. You didn't see graphics card manufacturers decide to raise prices because consumers discovered away to turn their products into additional fundraising devices did you?

You would have if there was only one or two options available. Early graphics cards were ridiculously expensive for what they did when they DIDN'T have any other purpose. (I mean way back, early 80's. A 16 color graphics adapter frequently cost more than the IBM PC you were putting it in). But as soon as Hercules got competition, the prices became reasonable very quickly.

True and we don't know what ASiCminer and BitSyncom's quality control is like? They may be throwing away chips that don't make the grade, not selling them!!

To be honest here, I don't think ASICminer/BitSyncom have issues with variance in chip quality, not to the extent BFL do. To me that smacks of how unfinished BFL are on this project, and how poor their engineering design actually is!!

I think their chips are going to have many problems that will only become apparent if their chips ever make it in volume in the wild!


Also, FWIW; The ASICminer blades are priced by the free market nitwits, the USB dongle is price gauging plain and simple!

[Biomech]

We have enough chips on order to satisfy all preorders. Any orders we make now to satisfy bulk chip sales would come after the chips arrive for the pre-orders.

Does anyone know how many pre-orders they have?

Hi. This might help you. http://bfl.ptz.ro/ It's a list of some people that received Jalapenos so far (and more unlucky ones still waiting to give you the whole disastrous picture - considering most people did not register in that form, this is HUGE ...). ....................

They (butterflies) sort of managed to scam people even if they deliver product at the (far away) end. Very creative.

Read more in PuertoLibre's signature above if curious how that is even possible.

........... But as soon as Hercules got competition, the prices became reasonable very quickly.

The prices are always determined by market and costumers. The only problem I have is BFL's full-charged-preorder-but-no-delivery policy.

I agree. I was speaking more of ASICMiner and Avalon. BFL is a wildcard. They are advertising what I'm talking about, but they have screwed the pooch so badly that I have extreme doubts that they can ever recover. Which is really too bad, because if the could deliver they would cause the other vendors to adjust. Not to mention they appear to have a really cool product.

Ah well. We'll see what happens. If they can actually get seriously to market before August, it'll change the game. If they can't, the game will still change. They just won't be leading the change. If they even survive.

[Kernel32]

If people are willing to pay outrageous prices, the producer is a fool to NOT offer outrageous prices while he has a defacto monopoly. When somebody credible comes to market at lower prices, ASICMiner products will lower theirs to something more reasonable. Right now they are mining fools as much as bitcoins. And if you have ever studied the history of gold rushes, mining fools is often initially much more profitable. Friedcat isn't screwing anyone. He's just allowing fools to screw themselves. And he IS delivering the product.

He isnt screwing anyone, of course.

I think that in the longterm, if he sells thousands of these, he might create thousands of haters, who didnt break even and then rant on Bitcoin. If he is into it selling long term, he might make more money not pissing customers off that later say "Ah, i wont buy new, i wont break even anyway."

Hard decision. Short term i agree with you.

Still it's not sharing the love, or the wealth to be *potentially made. It's centralising profits to themselves and leaving their *customers with a product that may...or may not give some reward one day in the future. I see no difference there between ASICminer and putting my money in a modern bank with a piss poor interest, other than I'm putting myself out to change funds to bitcoin and acquire a device which I'm then responsible to ensure remains working, whilst they profit!

To me that's an utterly selfish and stupid reason to sell at such a price. You didn't see graphics card manufacturers decide to raise prices because consumers discovered away to turn their products into additional fundraising devices did you?

You would have if there was only one or two options available. Early graphics cards were ridiculously expensive for what they did when they DIDN'T have any other purpose. (I mean way back, early 80's. A 16 color graphics adapter frequently cost more than the IBM PC you were putting it in). But as soon as Hercules got competition, the prices became reasonable very quickly.

True and we don't know what ASiCminer and BitSyncom's quality control is like? They may be throwing away chips that don't make the grade, not selling them!!

To be honest here, I don't think ASICminer/BitSyncom have issues with variance in chip quality, not to the extent BFL do. To me that smacks of how unfinished BFL are on this project, and how poor their engineering design actually is!!

I think their chips are going to have many problems that will only become apparent if their chips ever make it in volume in the wild!


Also, FWIW; The ASICminer blades are priced by the free market nitwits, the USB dongle is price gauging plain and simple!

Their ASICs are in some parameters far more superior to for example Avalon. They just took too big piece of the pie.

I really look forward to see how this few million dollar experiment goes.

[Biomech]

Also, FWIW; The ASICminer blades are priced by the free market nitwits, the USB dongle is price gauging plain and simple!

What sort of gauge are we using?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Kernel32]

Also, FWIW; The ASICminer blades are priced by the free market nitwits, the USB dongle is price gauging plain and simple!

What sort of gauge are we using?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Probably

[Biomech]

Also, FWIW; The ASICminer blades are priced by the free market nitwits, the USB dongle is price gauging plain and simple!

What sort of gauge are we using?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Probably

Nice! 

[Bitcoinorama]

Also, FWIW; The ASICminer blades are priced by the free market nitwits, the USB dongle is price gauging plain and simple!

What sort of gauge are we using?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Probably

Nice! 

Bah! *gouging...gits!

[Bitcoinorama]

If people are willing to pay outrageous prices, the producer is a fool to NOT offer outrageous prices while he has a defacto monopoly. When somebody credible comes to market at lower prices, ASICMiner products will lower theirs to something more reasonable. Right now they are mining fools as much as bitcoins. And if you have ever studied the history of gold rushes, mining fools is often initially much more profitable. Friedcat isn't screwing anyone. He's just allowing fools to screw themselves. And he IS delivering the product.

He isnt screwing anyone, of course.

I think that in the longterm, if he sells thousands of these, he might create thousands of haters, who didnt break even and then rant on Bitcoin. If he is into it selling long term, he might make more money not pissing customers off that later say "Ah, i wont buy new, i wont break even anyway."

Hard decision. Short term i agree with you.

Still it's not sharing the love, or the wealth to be *potentially made. It's centralising profits to themselves and leaving their *customers with a product that may...or may not give some reward one day in the future. I see no difference there between ASICminer and putting my money in a modern bank with a piss poor interest, other than I'm putting myself out to change funds to bitcoin and acquire a device which I'm then responsible to ensure remains working, whilst they profit!

To me that's an utterly selfish and stupid reason to sell at such a price. You didn't see graphics card manufacturers decide to raise prices because consumers discovered away to turn their products into additional fundraising devices did you?

You would have if there was only one or two options available. Early graphics cards were ridiculously expensive for what they did when they DIDN'T have any other purpose. (I mean way back, early 80's. A 16 color graphics adapter frequently cost more than the IBM PC you were putting it in). But as soon as Hercules got competition, the prices became reasonable very quickly.

True and we don't know what ASiCminer and BitSyncom's quality control is like? They may be throwing away chips that don't make the grade, not selling them!!

To be honest here, I don't think ASICminer/BitSyncom have issues with variance in chip quality, not to the extent BFL do. To me that smacks of how unfinished BFL are on this project, and how poor their engineering design actually is!!

I think their chips are going to have many problems that will only become apparent if their chips ever make it in volume in the wild!


Also, FWIW; The ASICminer blades are priced by the free market nitwits, the USB dongle is price gauging plain and simple!

Their ASICs are in some parameters far more superior to for example Avalon. They just took too big piece of the pie.

I really look forward to see how this few million dollar experiment goes.

As an observer? With whose millions?! 

[jspielberg]

It will be interesting to see if how the chip sales by BFL go. 

Other than pre-order folks who want the chips instead of their original orders (a bird in hard vs. two...), potential chip buyers won't be the unwashed masses, but those who are technical and have done a lot of research and will have full knowledge of BFL's history.

If the chips sales are a success, then it will be clear that they have been able to preserve their name and brand. 

If the chip sales are a failure, then I think BFL has cooked their own goose with the entry into the ASIC market (and the future won't be looking to bright).

[pekv2]

  Oboy.

[Bitcoinorama]

It will be interesting to see if how the chip sales by BFL go.  

Other than pre-order folks who want the chips instead of their original orders (a bird in hard vs. two...), potential chip buyers won't be the unwashed masses, but those who are technical and have done a lot of research and will have full knowledge of BFL's history.

If the chips sales are a success, then it will be clear that they have been able to preserve their name and brand.  

If the chip sales are a failure, then I think BFL has cooked their own goose with the entry into the ASIC market (and the future won't be looking to bright).

I disagree there are plenty of stupid people...with money!

They aren't all confined to this forum!!

There will be potential technical chip buyers who have done their research, and there will be those that haven't and are using either their own funds, or someone else's (who also have undertaken minimal/no research)

NEVER underestimate stupidity, BFL are banking on that!

They have to, they have no other choice, without detailed chip analysis publicly available what informed decision can anyone make?? It's a total shot in the dark with a company that now has a very poor record of delivering anything they've made people pay for upfront.

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

[k9quaint]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

[mgio]

I will be really really angry if they ship ANY discrete chips before the ship all the pre-orders have shipped.

[Bitcoinorama]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

[roy7]

I will be really really angry if they ship ANY discrete chips before the ship all the pre-orders have shipped.

It'll take months, at best, to ship all prior orders. Whereas chips just need to be received from the factory, repackaged, and mailed out.

I'd agree if chips were the only missing component to getting retail units out the door, then they should all go into retail units. But if plenty of chips come in and there is a shortage of some other component, I have no problem with them shipping chips while waiting for the other components to come back into stock.

[Bitcoinorama]

I will be really really angry if they ship ANY discrete chips before the ship all the pre-orders have shipped.

Well seeing as BFL are incapable being confident of shipping products they are satisfied; work, remain working, aren't likely to burn your house down, what are the chances of you receiving your goods before someone else DIY's them a solution through bulk chip purchasing?!

To be fair, I think it's your only chance of a working product, based on their behaviour of opening their intellectual property to this kind of usage...

[k9quaint]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

[wrenchmonkey]

IMHO, BFL is going to have to sweeten the pot considerably if they want to entice people to go with their chips. Considerable effort and progress has already been made toward open-source Avalon chip platforms. Pre-orders have been in place for several weeks.

With their price/hash being right on Par with Avalon, there's no incentive for anybody to jump from the Avalon ship, IMHO. Why would people invest the time and effort to develop boards for chips, when BFL has had trouble getting chips for themselves in weeks past. If they've had trouble getting enough chips for their own production in a timely manner, what reason is there to believe it will be any different for us?

BFL, IMHO, if you want to sell your chips, you're going to have to SERIOUSLY come down off that price. Somewhere in the <$50 range, if people are going to put the effort and money into developing yet another platform for chips that may or may not come in the next year.

Nobody is going to pay roughly the same price/hashing power to go with a new chip, and start over at square one on board development. The numbers simply won't work. There has to be a financial incentive that drives people to branch off from the relatively safe status quo of Avalon chips (which already have a pretty good jump on you in terms of time, development, release of chip specs and reference design, etc).

[Bitcoinorama]

Only credit card companies might save their ass (consumer)...

BFL doesn't take credit cards.

PayPal does...

Sure, but after 45 days Paypal considers the sale final. So if you have an old pre-order (100 days old for instance ), Paypal won't help you. Since the CC companies are paying Paypal and Paypal didn't rip you off, the CC companies won't help you. That is why people were recommending renewing a pre-order every 45 days with BFL through PayPal.

That's what I thought, but it's not the case; apparently depends on the card issuer. I've been looking into this and speaking to banks...