Are GPUs still relevant and for how long

[rovchris]

...

The main problem being it is impossible to get your hands on an ASIC and it will remain that way for a while.

Once they do become mainstream the hash rate of the network will be so high that you will need very deep pockets due to the number of devices you will need to buy.

This problem never occurred when people started GPU mining as GPU's could be purchased next day by anyone - this jump to ASIC's is going to purge out a huge number of miners and just leave a small minority with ASIC's.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

It may even drive the Bitcoin price lower as they can be mined more efficiently. The more efficiently something can be produced generally the lower the value.

True, but it will also concentrate the mining of bitcoins into fewer hands. The fewer there are to sell a resource, the higher the price (assuming demand stays the same).  Definitely will be interesting to see how it all unfolds 

Possibly - I just feel for all the small guys as what is happening really goes against the grain of Bitcoins - Bitcoins were meant to empower them.

[massnerder]

Possibly - I just feel for all the small guys as what is happening really goes against the grain of Bitcoins - Bitcoins were meant to empower them.

Yes, BTC was meant to be as decentralized as possible, and fewer people mining more of the coins = less decentralized.

However, I do think that it will all even out eventually.  Look at GPUs for example, $300 typically gets you 500-700mhs.  You can get a $300 ASIC that does 4.5-5.5ghs....  or, you can get in line for one would be more accurate.  Eventually the hardware demand for ASICs will level off and the small miners who want to continue will be able to do so, but they won't do as well as the folks who waited in line for it.  That's the only real big difference, nobody ever had to deal with this kind of buying frenzy/scarcity with GPUs.

I do think / hope that scrypt mining will keep GPUs around longer than some would guess though.

[rovchris]

Possibly - I just feel for all the small guys as what is happening really goes against the grain of Bitcoins - Bitcoins were meant to empower them.

Yes, BTC was meant to be as decentralized as possible, and fewer people mining more of the coins = less decentralized.

However, I do think that it will all even out eventually.  Look at GPUs for example, $300 typically gets you 500-700mhs.  You can get a $300 ASIC that does 4.5-5.5ghs....  or, you can get in line for one would be more accurate.  Eventually the hardware demand for ASICs will level off and the small miners who want to continue will be able to do so, but they won't do as well as the folks who waited in line for it.  That's the only real big difference, nobody ever had to deal with this kind of buying frenzy/scarcity with GPUs.

I do think / hope that scrypt mining will keep GPUs around longer than some would guess though.

Dude you summed it up perfectly with " nobody ever had to deal with this kind of buying frenzy/scarcity with GPUs."  Law of unintended consequences.

As nobody has had to deal with this situation before the outcome could be very detrimental.

I can clearly see that what has happened is not good - all they have done is made something that was available to everyone (mining bitcoins) now the remit of the select few which is basically no different to banks.

If I could walk into PC World and buy an ASIC today then it would not be a problem - but this is so far from the truth. You can not even order an Avalon unit for example.

You said you can buy a $300  5ghs ASIC - you can not though - you can pre order one and hope that by the time it arrives you may be able to make your money back because none of the manufactures guarantee any kind of delivery date and that is if they are not using them to mine themselves which has been highlighted on other threads.

Put it like this someone that received an AVALON unit 4 months ago has made such vast sums of money they can order another 20 without batting an eye lid aka Exponential growth. By the time we get our hands on any we will have to order 30 just to be competitive - and we won't do that so we will be forced out leaving fewer and fewer miners.

[Damnsammit]

I'll keep using GPUs over ASIC because of a few reasons.

1) I don't trust any of these companies that are pre-ordering
2) If my ASIC is no longer bringing in many coins, or the hashing power is insignificant because of more powerful ASICs and/or the increasing difficulty, then it is a worthless device that will resell for no-where near what I paid for it 
3) If my GPU is no longer bringing in many coins, then I can move to another crypto-currency that is more profitable, if that doesn't work then I can move to another one, if that doesn't work then I can sell it for relatively the same amount that I paid for it.  People are always upgrading their computers and these cards are all pretty beasty

[rovchris]

I'll keep using GPUs over ASIC because of a few reasons.

1) I don't trust any of these companies that are pre-ordering
2) If my ASIC is no longer bringing in many coins, or the hashing power is insignificant because of more powerful ASICs and/or the increasing difficulty, then it is a worthless device that will resell for no-where near what I paid for it 
3) If my GPU is no longer bringing in many coins, then I can move to another crypto-currency that is more profitable, if that doesn't work then I can move to another one, if that doesn't work then I can sell it for relatively the same amount that I paid for it.  People are always upgrading their computers and these cards are all pretty beasty

I am with you on that for sure.

The ASIC companies are just gold digging opportunists that are ruining mining.

[Amph]

I'll keep using GPUs over ASIC because of a few reasons.

1) I don't trust any of these companies that are pre-ordering
2) If my ASIC is no longer bringing in many coins, or the hashing power is insignificant because of more powerful ASICs and/or the increasing difficulty, then it is a worthless device that will resell for no-where near what I paid for it  
3) If my GPU is no longer bringing in many coins, then I can move to another crypto-currency that is more profitable, if that doesn't work then I can move to another one, if that doesn't work then I can sell it for relatively the same amount that I paid for it.  People are always upgrading their computers and these cards are all pretty beasty

+1

[rovchris]

The thing is this - as soon as somewhere like MT Gox accepts LTC - I feel the majority of us miners won't give a hoot about ASICS's - if they want to wreck BTC let them - a valuable lesson may be learned.

At least we can keep mining then with our "old school" rigs

[chungenhung]

GPU will be relevant for several years to come.

[mgio]

I'll keep using GPUs over ASIC because of a few reasons.

1) I don't trust any of these companies that are pre-ordering
2) If my ASIC is no longer bringing in many coins, or the hashing power is insignificant because of more powerful ASICs and/or the increasing difficulty, then it is a worthless device that will resell for no-where near what I paid for it 
3) If my GPU is no longer bringing in many coins, then I can move to another crypto-currency that is more profitable, if that doesn't work then I can move to another one, if that doesn't work then I can sell it for relatively the same amount that I paid for it.  People are always upgrading their computers and these cards are all pretty beasty

1) Just because you don't trust the ASIC companies doesn't mean at least some of them won't deliver (and all of them look like they are so far, so later than others, but still delivering).

2) GPUs will never sell for what you bought them for. GPUs will be mining so few bitcoins these days that you will have no chance of making the difference between what you buy and sell the GPUs at. Don't forget that they use far more electricity than ASICs.

3) The difficulty of those alt coins is going to soar as all the GPU miners do this. Alt coins are all going to die anyways within a year as there is only people mining them with no one buying them or using them as they are pretty much useless.

[Damnsammit]

I respectfully disagree with you.

Right now, I am running a 5850 that I bought with $60 on CL.  I could sell it right now on eBay for $80 and make a profit.  It has also been mining for a month generating ~$1/day.

You sound like my friend who told me that "there is no market for used hardware"

I'll keep using GPUs over ASIC because of a few reasons.

1) I don't trust any of these companies that are pre-ordering
2) If my ASIC is no longer bringing in many coins, or the hashing power is insignificant because of more powerful ASICs and/or the increasing difficulty, then it is a worthless device that will resell for no-where near what I paid for it 
3) If my GPU is no longer bringing in many coins, then I can move to another crypto-currency that is more profitable, if that doesn't work then I can move to another one, if that doesn't work then I can sell it for relatively the same amount that I paid for it.  People are always upgrading their computers and these cards are all pretty beasty

1) Just because you don't trust the ASIC companies doesn't mean at least some of them won't deliver (and all of them look like they are so far, so later than others, but still delivering).

2) GPUs will never sell for what you bought them for. GPUs will be mining so few bitcoins these days that you will have no chance of making the difference between what you buy and sell the GPUs at. Don't forget that they use far more electricity than ASICs.

3) The difficulty of those alt coins is going to soar as all the GPU miners do this. Alt coins are all going to die anyways within a year as there is only people mining them with no one buying them or using them as they are pretty much useless.

[massnerder]

Dude you summed it up perfectly with " nobody ever had to deal with this kind of buying frenzy/scarcity with GPUs."  Law of unintended consequences.

As nobody has had to deal with this situation before the outcome could be very detrimental.

I can clearly see that what has happened is not good - all they have done is made something that was available to everyone (mining bitcoins) now the remit of the select few which is basically no different to banks.

If I could walk into PC World and buy an ASIC today then it would not be a problem - but this is so far from the truth. You can not even order an Avalon unit for example.

You said you can buy a $300  5ghs ASIC - you can not though - you can pre order one and hope that by the time it arrives you may be able to make your money back because none of the manufactures guarantee any kind of delivery date and that is if they are not using them to mine themselves which has been highlighted on other threads.

Put it like this someone that received an AVALON unit 4 months ago has made such vast sums of money they can order another 20 without batting an eye lid aka Exponential growth. By the time we get our hands on any we will have to order 30 just to be competitive - and we won't do that so we will be forced out leaving fewer and fewer miners.

Yes and no... certainly the people who adopt early will have the best potential rewards, but the point I was trying to make is that eventually the market will settle down and you won't have to wait in line for the 4.5ghs ASIC that costs as much as a 700mhs GPU.  It won't make crazy profit like it could right now but it will be worth running.  When that time comes is when GPU mining is no longer relevant....  could be a few months or a couple years, with all the uncertainty around ASICs right now.  The cat being out of the bag at this point, I still think there will always be at least one scrypt coin to mine with our old GPUs....

As far as remaining competitive...  also yes and no.  There is a big difference between mining above the cutoff where it's still profitable to run the hardware and being competitive with the other miners out there.  The example you are using can be applied the exact same way to CPU mining being overtaken by GPUs.  For example, I have a single rig of 4x 7950s mining right now and it's well worth it to mine, but I am not even close to being competitive with the next guy who has 50-100 GPUs or more farming away.... I think that eventually the ASIC situation will balance out and become just like GPUs now.  You will have some small guys just getting a little bit of BTC for fun with their small miners, and you will have others who sank a ton of money on their crazy multi TH/s farms getting more BTC.  It's the crazy transition period where big risks/rewards are made available, but in the long run it will be same sh!t, different year.

[Choadmeyer]

I'll keep using GPUs over ASIC because of a few reasons.

1) I don't trust any of these companies that are pre-ordering
2) If my ASIC is no longer bringing in many coins, or the hashing power is insignificant because of more powerful ASICs and/or the increasing difficulty, then it is a worthless device that will resell for no-where near what I paid for it 
3) If my GPU is no longer bringing in many coins, then I can move to another crypto-currency that is more profitable, if that doesn't work then I can move to another one, if that doesn't work then I can sell it for relatively the same amount that I paid for it.  People are always upgrading their computers and these cards are all pretty beasty

+1

My thoughts exactly.

[Choadmeyer]

I'll keep using GPUs over ASIC because of a few reasons.

1) I don't trust any of these companies that are pre-ordering
2) If my ASIC is no longer bringing in many coins, or the hashing power is insignificant because of more powerful ASICs and/or the increasing difficulty, then it is a worthless device that will resell for no-where near what I paid for it  
3) If my GPU is no longer bringing in many coins, then I can move to another crypto-currency that is more profitable, if that doesn't work then I can move to another one, if that doesn't work then I can sell it for relatively the same amount that I paid for it.  People are always upgrading their computers and these cards are all pretty beasty

1) Just because you don't trust the ASIC companies doesn't mean at least some of them won't deliver (and all of them look like they are so far, so later than others, but still delivering).

2) GPUs will never sell for what you bought them for. GPUs will be mining so few bitcoins these days that you will have no chance of making the difference between what you buy and sell the GPUs at. Don't forget that they use far more electricity than ASICs.

3) The difficulty of those alt coins is going to soar as all the GPU miners do this. Alt coins are all going to die anyways within a year as there is only people mining them with no one buying them or using them as they are pretty much useless.

1) The chip game is a rat race right now. I don't believe many people will see ROI on A LOT of the miners scheduled to be "delivered soon" (KNC, BFL Chips, Cointerra, Bitfury etc.) Still didn't stop me from throwing a few BTC at them 

2/3) GPUs don't sell for what you bought them for but you can get close, especially if you're selling a not-so-dated card. (79XX)
The altcoin diffs will be rising but not at the incredible rate that BTC is. To be honest I'd be surprised if there are really that many people mining BTC with GPUs. I'm running around 5 Gh/s worth for example. Why would I mine $3/day worth of BTC when I can mine $12 worth of LTC?

[polarhei]

GPUs are not relevant if you only just performing the SHA-2 operations.

If performing SHA-3 or Scrypt(1024,1,1), GPU is still relevant as the steps are not simple.

[Twist177]

1) Am I likely to get at least my money back?

I doubt it, maybe in a couple years 

2) Are there realistic options in Alt currencies that the GPU could be useful for vs ASIC - can ASIC at this point or in the near future be used in Alt?

Litecoin and Feathercoin seem promising at this point

3) Are there any realistic ASIC options at this point, all the sellers seem rather dodgy to me?

I'd avoid ASIC's at this point, seems really hard to be successful

4) What other angles could I look at other than actually buying Bitcoin of course?

Buying Altcoins?  I think that's about it.

[Keldel]

2) Are there realistic options in Alt currencies that the GPU could be useful for vs ASIC - can ASIC at this point or in the near future be used in Alt?

Litecoin and Feathercoin seem promising at this point

Litecoin price is plummeting (see chart) and the currency itself has no future. However, it's great to mine LTC with GPU and convert LTC into BTC.

[FloridaBear]

Litecoin price is plummeting (see chart) and the currency itself has no future. However, it's great to mine LTC with GPU and convert LTC into BTC.

"Great" is not the right word. Right now, a 600KH/s Litecoin miner at 200 watts is mining $0.79 per day after electricity. That's 3 cents per hour. The best altcoins may get you a dollar a day or so. I can probably find more on the ground walking around the mall. Alt coin prices seem to be falling over time, which will only make mining less profitable.

As less efficient GPUs become unprofitable (many are already), you will likely see declining network hash rates among alt coins, killing them off when split blockchains and orphans become unmanageable. Eventually we will probably be left with only a couple (thankfully), and those will be marginally profitable for the more efficient GPUs and those with low electricity costs.

[FloridaBear]

1) Am I likely to get at least my money back?

I doubt it, maybe in a couple years 

What? There is NO WAY you will ever get your money back with a GPU. Even when the OP posted, that was probably the case.

[PrintMule]

But my rig heats my apartment in this cold autumn days for free

[massnerder]

But my rig heats my apartment in this cold autumn days for free

lol where is the profit calculator that takes heating bills into consideration?? how many BTUs does a mining 7950 produce?