Bitcoin Forum
April 15, 2021, 10:45:54 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.21.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: [ANN] Tangible Cryptography suspends Bitcoin related transaction.  (Read 66663 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic.
TangibleCryptography
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476
Merit: 250


Tangible Cryptography LLC


View Profile WWW
June 03, 2013, 04:25:35 AM
Last edit: December 22, 2013, 03:38:03 AM by TangibleCryptography
 #1

Effective the May 31st, 2013 Tangible Cryptography has suspended new purchases of Bitcoins through our service FastCash4Bitcoins.  We take this step in response to a notice received, the same day from the Commonwealth of Virginia, that a complaint has been made that our company is operating as an unlicensed money transmitter.  

The Virginia Corporation Commission did an initial investigation in response to the complaint, and determined that our activity may constitute money transmission under Virginia law. The Commission's initial assessment has factual errors which we intend to address.  The notice indicated that it appears that our company is issuing Bitcoins through the use of the website https://fastcash4bitcoins.com , which may constitute "selling or issuing stored value" under Virginia law.  

As our clients are well aware this is simply an incorrect assessment of our business activity. The site is used to facilitate the purchase of Bitcoins from clients.  Tangible Cryptography is acting as a independent buyers not issuer of virtual currency.  Furthermore there is no obligation for redemption, or holding of customer funds, as would occur in a stored value system.  The view that buying, selling, or even issuing new Bitcoins, would be seen as stored value is at odds with the guidance from FinCEN earlier this year in which they stated that exchangers (and issuers) of virtual currency are not issuers of prepaid access (stored value) under Federal law.

The company has been given thirty days to provide written explanation on why our activity is exempt from licensing under current law. The commission has formally stated that unless exempt from licensing we must stop further activity until such time as we apply for and obtain a Money Transmitter license.  The prudent action is for the company to suspend all new transactions while we respond to the Commission's notice.

We want to reassure our valued clients that all completed transactions have been paid.  At this time there has been no freeze, hold, or closure of our payment accounts.  We are one of the few Bitcoin related enterprises which can definitively say that to date, no client has lost funds as a result of theft, hacking, or fraud through fault or negligence by Tangible Cryptography or the services it provides.  The future and direction of Tangible Cryptography will depend on the outcome of our response to the Virginia Corporation Commission.  While we hope for a timely resolution we recommend our existing clients make alternative arrangements as it is difficult to provide an estimate on how long such a resolution may take.

Staff
Tangible Cryptography, LLC
1618483554
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1618483554

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1618483554
Reply with quote  #2

1618483554
Report to moderator
1618483554
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1618483554

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1618483554
Reply with quote  #2

1618483554
Report to moderator
1618483554
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1618483554

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1618483554
Reply with quote  #2

1618483554
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400
Merit: 1006



View Profile
June 03, 2013, 05:30:51 AM
 #2

My guess is the government agents have no idea what you guys really do and just think its a good idea to take away your job, to justify theirs.
I'm more interested in the original source of the complaint.
TheButterZone
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2758
Merit: 1027


RIP Mommy


View Profile WWW
June 03, 2013, 05:33:42 AM
Last edit: June 03, 2013, 09:32:45 AM by TheButterZone
 #3

You don't get into positions of power of life and death over proles by being ignorant, only acting as if you are, which is genius-level sociopathy. If you REALLY try it sometime, you may just become the President of the United States, and have the power to slaughter babies in the Rose Garden in front of the world's press, and not suffer any real punishment whatsoever.

Saying that you don't trust someone because of their behavior is completely valid.
QuantumQrack
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 340
Merit: 250


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 07:33:35 AM
 #4

My guess is the government agents have no idea what you guys really do and just think its a good idea to take away your job, to justify theirs.
I'm more interested in the original source of the complaint.

Maybe this stupid jackass:  Viceroy

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195642.msg2321256#msg2321256
🏰 TradeFortress 🏰
CoinLenders / Inputs.io / CoinChat
VIP
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1218
Merit: 1028

reimbursements closed


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 07:37:53 AM
 #5

Viceroy comes off as the kind of person that would do this.
zebedee
Donator
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 668
Merit: 500



View Profile
June 03, 2013, 11:55:03 AM
 #6

TC - I wish you the best of luck.  Sadly certain people just want to stir up problems amongst freely-associating people because it doesn't make them happy, for whatever narcissistic reason.

Your service is the best in the business, as any reasonable person who has dealt with you would know.

Stick it to 'em.
oblongmeteor
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 134
Merit: 100


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 11:56:35 AM
 #7

Wouldn't matter if it was him or not. Sooner or later such a notice is going to be issued. Bitcoin may not 'technically' be money, but since it's being used for all the illict activities that money is used for - such technicalities are happily overlooked. Liberty Reserve was 'technically' based in Costa Rica - not an American dominion last time I looked - with only one of its directors based in the USA. Doesn't alter the fact that US is extraditing from across the globe and charging the lot of them with Money Laundering.

If the US takes a dislike to your activities; any warnings should be like finding a Howitzer shell that has failed to go off after landing in your foxhole. You only get that lucky once.

  
Viceroy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 924
Merit: 501


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 12:38:31 PM
 #8

Viceroy comes off as the kind of person that would do this.

Given your misguided blind hatred of me it will surprise you to learn that I am greatly disappointed to read about what happened.  Dealing with regulators is NEVER any fun.   You clearly lack the mental acuity to see that this is part of a coordinated attack by the government which I am not a part of in any way except that I vote from time to time.  The government, in this case Virginia, wants their "cut".  Once TC is licensed in VA the problem will instantly go away.
 
I agree with Goat that the company will come out of this just fine from what I have read in the OP and the company will probably be stronger for it and better positioned to take over the market as Mt Gox inevitably gets cut off from America.   
 
I know you don't see this as helpful but I did suggest in these forums a week ago that TC would do well to cut off the "angry" states like California and New York.  I never considered their home state but it is reasonable to think that they might want to be licensed there as well.  TC's lawyers knew better though, at least that's what D&T said.  (Malpractice suit coming against counsel?) 
 
For what it's worth, TradeFortress, you would be well served to learn a lesson here as the site you run is CLEARLY against the intent of most state and federal securities laws.  It is illegal in about 98% of the USA for a person to act as a BANK without appropriate license.  I know in Pennsylvania alone you need to have $25 million cash to open a bank and you need to go through a process that is ten times as complex as what TC is about to go through if they register as a money transmitter.
 
But you just go on attacking me like "I" am the unlicensed money laundering bad guy.   Roll Eyes   
 
forum tip:  Your home state and the US Securities and Exchange Commission would be excited to know about TF and his illegal bank (bitcoin Certificate of Deposit Accounts) and if you tip them off you might even get a reward when they seize TradeFortress' assets. 

LoweryCBS
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250


firstbits 1LoCBS


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 12:43:12 PM
 #9

...when they seize TradeFortress' assets.  

That's going to require a lonnnnnnng swim.
BCB
CTG
VIP
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1002


BCJ


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 01:30:40 PM
 #10

TC.

Fight the good fight. We need more legal precedents. Note to counsel: review the e-gold case.

Good luck.
MPOE-PR
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 501



View Profile
June 03, 2013, 01:32:25 PM
Last edit: June 03, 2013, 01:54:43 PM by MPOE-PR
 #11

Effective the May 31st, 2013 Tangible Cryptography has suspended new purchases of Bitcoins through our service FastCash4Bitcoins.  We take this step in response to a notice received on the same day from the Commonwealth of Virginia that a complaint has been made that our company is operating as an unlicensed money transmitter.  

The Virginia Corporation Commission did an initial investigation in response to the complaint, and determined that our activity may constitute money transmission under Virginia law. The Commission's initial assessment has factual errors which we intend to address.  The notice indicated that it appears that our company is issuing Bitcoins through the use of the website https://fastcash4bitcoins.com , which may constitute "sale of issuance of stored value" under Virginia law.  

As our clients are well aware this is simply an incorrect assessment of our business activity. The site is used to facilitate the purchase of Bitcoins from clients.  Tangible Cryptography is acting as a buyers not issuer of virtual currency.  Furthermore there is no obligation for redemption, or holding of customer funds, as would occur in a stored value system.  The view that buying, selling, or even issuing new Bitcoins would be seen as stored value is at odds with the guidance from FinCEN earlier this year, that exchangers (and issuers) of virtual currency are not issuers of prepaid access (stored value).

The company has been given thirty days to provide written explanation on why our activity is exempt from licensing under current law. The commission has formally stated that unless exempt from licensing we must stop further activity until such time as we apply for and obtain a Money Transmitter license.  The prudent action is for the company to suspend all new transactions while we respond to the Commission's notice  

We want to reassure our valued clients that all completed transactions have been paid.  At this time there has been no freeze, hold, or closure of our payment accounts.  We are one of the few Bitcoin related enterprises which can definitively say that to date, no client has lost funds as a result of theft, hacking, or fraud through fault or negligence by Tangible Cryptography or the services it provides.  The future and direction of Tangible Cryptography will depend on the outcome of our response to the Virginia Corporation Commission.  While we hope for a timely resolution we recommend our existing clients make alternative arrangements as it is difficult to provide an estimate on how long such a resolution may take.

Staff

Tangible Cryptography, LLC

Sucks man. Underscored for truth.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
ripper234
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358
Merit: 1002


Ron Gross


View Profile WWW
June 03, 2013, 01:47:34 PM
 #12

Sorry to hear, TangibleCryptography is a terrific Bitcoin company, and I hope you can resume operations ASAP.

Please do not pm me, use ron@bitcoin.org.il instead
Mastercoin Executive Director
Co-founder of the Israeli Bitcoin Association
rme
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 504



View Profile
June 03, 2013, 01:49:48 PM
 #13

Bad news  Cry
Bitco
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 746
Merit: 253



View Profile
June 03, 2013, 01:51:18 PM
 #14

What some of you guys might not be understanding is that FC4BTC bought BTC. They did not sell it or "issue" it.

There is no way they could have violated "sale of issuance of stored value" unless the USD is an "issuance of stored value" and if so then everyone who uses fiat will thus need to register.

No.  Per Code of Virginia title 6.2, dollars sent through banks are exempt: That would include the checks sent out by Tangible Cryptography, which are drawn on Wells Fargo.

Quote
6.2-1902. Scope and construction of chapter.

A. The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to:

1. The United States, or any department, instrumentality or agency thereof;

2. The Commonwealth, or any political subdivision thereof;

3. Any bank, trust company, savings institution, or credit union operating under the laws of the United States or any state or territory thereof, or other person to the extent the person provides money transmission services as an agent of one or more banks, trust companies, savings institutions, or credit unions operating under the laws of the United States or any state or territory thereof; or

4. Any private security services business, licensed under 9.1-139, that transports or offers to transport money.

B. This chapter shall be construed by the Commission for the purpose of protecting, against financial loss, residents of the Commonwealth who (i) purchase money orders or (ii) give money or control of their funds or credit into the custody of another person for transmission, regardless of whether the money order seller or money transmitter has any office, facility, authorized delegate, or other physical presence in the Commonwealth.

This claim is extremely silly and will not stick.

It's silly, but for a different reason.  If bitcoin is 'stored value' then the people who sold bitcoins to FC4B were all engaged in the business of money transmission, and the Virginia Corporation Commission should be investigating those thousands of people.  I'd love to see how they construe that as protecting residents of the Commonwealth.
deadweasel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250



View Profile
June 03, 2013, 02:29:09 PM
 #15

What some of you guys might not be understanding is that FC4BTC bought BTC. They did not sell it or "issue" it.

There is no way they could have violated "sale of issuance of stored value" unless the USD is an "issuance of stored value" and if so then everyone who uses fiat will thus need to register.

This claim is extremely silly and will not stick.






Your service is the best in the business, as any reasonable person who has dealt with you would know.



+1



+1

Good Luck TC, if you need help from the community, just ask.  Smiley

BCB
CTG
VIP
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064
Merit: 1002


BCJ


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 02:31:37 PM
 #16

Yes don't hesitate to ask if you need on record letters of how your users made use of your systems.
milone
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434
Merit: 251


CGWatcher & CGRemote


View Profile WWW
June 03, 2013, 04:09:37 PM
 #17

How is FastCash4Bitcoins.com different from someone posting an ad on Craigslist offering to buy bitcoins? Because it's a company with a website? Is it the TLD that sets them apart? Seriously... if they are a MTB, we are likely all MTBs. Posting a buy order on an exchange is essentially the same thing - offering to buy bitcoins from somebody else.

This is a bad decision made by ignorant officials who are either too dumb or too proud to ask questions and learn about something they know nothing about before making decisions that affect it. If it's because they're worried about getting "their share"... they would have to send warnings to anyone who buys bitcoins from someone else. And if that's the case, they need to start sending warnings to everyone who buys anything from someone else because it is also exchanging fiat currency for something of value... which is all that was happening here. They were not creating or issuing bitcoins; they were just offering to buy something that already existed.

I will be dumbfounded if this decision is not reversed. If these bad decisions are allowed to stand it will set a precedent for future bad decisions regarding bitcoin.

/rant

CGWatcher, a GUI/monitor for CGMiner & BFGMiner: http://www.cgwatcher.com
CGRemote, a remote mining dashboard for all of your miners: http://www.minerremote.com
BTC: 12TAYjmSrdDHLNpmix2MG6y3R868SMM7Fx    LTC: LM6Un6hZvPzLBggJWiAVG6E6w2GfaHukXY
Viceroy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 924
Merit: 501


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 05:12:13 PM
 #18

Put me down for a bit.

+1.  Me too.
Stephen Gornick
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2506
Merit: 1001


View Profile
June 03, 2013, 05:23:07 PM
Last edit: June 04, 2013, 12:52:50 AM by Stephen Gornick
 #19

The company has been given thirty days to provide written explanation on why our activity is exempt from licensing under current law. The commission has formally stated that unless exempt from licensing we must stop further activity until such time as we apply for and obtain a Money Transmitter license.

I see that Tangible Cryptography's MSB registration (#31000023734880), dated March 23, 2013, lists MSB Activities as "Money transmitter".  
 - http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

The types of activities to choose from include:

Quote
Money Services Business - The term "money services business" includes any person doing business, whether or not on a regular basis or as an organized business concern, in one or more of the following capacities:

(1) Currency dealer or exchanger.
(2) Check casher.
(3) Issuer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.
(4) Seller or redeemer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.
(5) Money transmitter.
(6) U.S. Postal Service.
- http://www.fincen.gov/whatsnew/html/LaunchNewMSBRegistrationSite.html

If Tangible Cryptography were to have wanted to choose something other than Money transmitter, there's nothing else that really applies.   And money transmitter isn't really correct either.

Bitcoins simply is a round peg that doesn't fit in any of the regulator's square holes.
 

Unichange.me

            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █
            █


Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476
Merit: 250



View Profile
June 03, 2013, 05:32:48 PM
 #20

Speaking as a fellow Virginian and a customer, this is some bullshit. I hope they get their foot off your neck.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!