The Supply of Bitcoin Is Limited. The Supply of Cryptos Isn't!

[JL421]

Yeah it is limited but you can use multiple crypto as currency right bitcoin becoming a currency is possible the only issue the supply is limited using crypto is possible only if the supply available is sufficient for everyone and easily accessible

[1715472704]

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[Pleione527]

Yes bitcoin supply is limited that's the reason why the value keeps fluctuating because the price depends on the demand of bitcoin in the market. Cryptos somehow is also limited because developees cannot creates unlimited cryptos there is always a limitation for it.

[Pivo]

I think they will not just print out a lot of dollars since it will damage the economy and other than that if they think of controlling the market thru that then they are not alone since others would want that also like China (and also big businessmen out there who also want to invest) hence no once can control the marlet since it is well distributed worldwide int he current time and even more in the future which would not be possible for them anymore. In the case of another cryptocurrency other than Bitcoin then that might be possible.

[Omega Weapon]

What you said it is correct but we are still very far to reach that point, when the dollar falls of grace as the world reserve currency the next question is what to do then, and economist have suggested what you are saying using a basket of fiats and creating a new world currency as a result, so what you are saying makes complete sense but you are too early, I do not think that is going to happen in decades or even in 50 years.

To be blunt, mainstream economists have mainly existed to serve the ruling elites.  They were in favor of the gold standard when it was operating, but are now almost totally against it.  Both times, they were saying what the elites wanted to hear, at the time.

World reserve currency is essentially a bubble that is propped up by the elites.  The nature of bubbles is that you don't know when and how it will collapse, but you know it will, and that you know the elites and their mouthpieces are always going to be saying everything is fine, before the collapse.  So accurate information of this nature is hard to come by.

It is also possible that the emergence of Bitcoin has given the elites an opportunity to deflate the bubble preventively.  Something of that nature happened around 1985 when a hard landing of the dollar was prevented by a combination of talking the dollar down and forcing Europe to inflate and making their currencies unattractive.

A basket of fiat currencies is what economists always talk about (assuming you mean the SDR issued by the IMF,) but we have no history that shows success by a reserve currency issued by a centralized authority without the help of a unified imperial power.  Through 500 years of modern history, global imperial currency has always been a combination of state issuance, precious metal backing, and support by imperial power.  Over the last 45 years the currency itself went totally fiat, and I don't believe this condition can last long.  Of course, the politicians, economists, and bankers are always going to say it will last forever.

Do not get me wrong I know they are bought, I was just pointing out the direction they want to go, and we may show to them that has never existed and that is not going to work but those people always think they know better, in my opinion there are only 5 scenarios possible

In the first scenario, there is no reserve currency and each country tries to hold the currencies of other countries similar to what China and Russia are already doing, in the second scenario a basket of currencies is created and a new world currency is created, neither of these scenarios are going to work.

The third scenario is the one you presented in your first post, the fourth is going back to gold and silver and while you believe more in this scenario what it is going to happen when we get access to the technology to explore the space and get as much silver and gold as we want? I think humans will have at some point to create their own scarcity somehow and bitcoin show to us how we can do it.

And the fifth scenario is chaos, which is terrible but I will not discard it.

[PMmesexycoins]

The third scenario is the one you presented in your first post, the fourth is going back to gold and silver and while you believe more in this scenario what it is going to happen when we get access to the technology to explore the space and get as much silver and gold as we want?

I don't think we are anywhere near the level of development where one can really consider strip mining asteroids, etc. By the time that's viable, it would probably be a post-scarcity economy anyway.

[BobK71]

Do not get me wrong I know they are bought, I was just pointing out the direction they want to go, and we may show to them that has never existed and that is not going to work but those people always think they know better, in my opinion there are only 5 scenarios possible

In the first scenario, there is no reserve currency and each country tries to hold the currencies of other countries similar to what China and Russia are already doing, in the second scenario a basket of currencies is created and a new world currency is created, neither of these scenarios are going to work.

The third scenario is the one you presented in your first post, the fourth is going back to gold and silver and while you believe more in this scenario what it is going to happen when we get access to the technology to explore the space and get as much silver and gold as we want? I think humans will have at some point to create their own scarcity somehow and bitcoin show to us how we can do it.

And the fifth scenario is chaos, which is terrible but I will not discard it.

Nice analysis.  Another strike against a basket of fiat currencies will be that, if we get to that condition, by definition, fiat currencies have already been discredited: the dollar is discredited by definition, and the other major fiat currencies, having been engineered by the US to live in the shadow of the dollar over the long term, have an even more exposed history of debasement.

But, you never know.  The elites might try it, and it might work for a while.

All five scenarios assume a reactive approach by the elites, i.e. waiting for collapse to happen and then trying to make a change.  But cryptos, being still at such a low price compared to gold, allow them to be proactive.  Without too much damage to the reputation of their system, they can engineer inflation that will more quickly eat away the value of the world's debt.  That will achieve a long-term stability of their system, as compared to the ad hoc measures to prop it up a short while at a time today.

[BobK71]

I think they will not just print out a lot of dollars since it will damage the economy and other than that if they think of controlling the market thru that then they are not alone since others would want that also like China (and also big businessmen out there who also want to invest) hence no once can control the marlet since it is well distributed worldwide int he current time and even more in the future which would not be possible for them anymore. In the case of another cryptocurrency other than Bitcoin then that might be possible.

The Holy Grail of the global elites has always been to engineer slow but constant inflation to eat away savers' wealth over the long term.  This will help drive people into risky assets which will help inflate the system and benefit the elites and their allies.  But, yes, they want to be careful not to do too much money printing.

For example, compare the purchasing power of $1 100 years ago versus today, and it becomes pretty clear.

[BobK71]

The third scenario is the one you presented in your first post, the fourth is going back to gold and silver and while you believe more in this scenario what it is going to happen when we get access to the technology to explore the space and get as much silver and gold as we want?

I don't think we are anywhere near the level of development where one can really consider strip mining asteroids, etc. By the time that's viable, it would probably be a post-scarcity economy anyway.

There is also the chemical creation of gold.  Alchemy has succeeded in the modern age!  But this requires radioactive reactions that are currently too expensive.  This effectively puts an upper bound on the price of gold.

[BobK71]

This is a thoughtful post, thank you.

I still contend that the value of gold and silver can be manipulated. It is known that metals markets involving aluminum and other materials are manipulated by traders. There isn't a market which exists that is immune to overvaluing/undervaluing to manipulate price.

The manipulation of gold and silver is an order of magnitude more important than that of commodities.  Gold and silver are at the center of our system, and so their manipulation is absolutely necessary if central banks are to keep people from running away from their issued currencies.  The entire gold- and silver-standard system that was run by central banks for centuries until 1971 was an overt manipulation.

After all, who would trust unlimited-supply money as a store of value?  Especially when the issuers have many incentives to issue more?

One key thing that is missing in precious metals to raise its price higher is a function of utility. If someone owned a 100 lb chunk of pure gold, they couldn't do anything with it other than sell it to redeem for fiat. Precious metals in that sense, lack options.

Selling the gold for fiat allows you to buy anything you need, with one extra step.  When store of value is at stake, other considerations tend to fade into secondary importance.

They can't be utilized for electronic payment, earning interest, they can't be used to buy or sell. Metals are lacking the type of utility people have come to expect in the mdoern age where goods/services can be bought or sold in seconds with the click of a button.

So, this goes to the heart of the design of the system.  It's nice to have convenient features in a money system, of course.  The question is, who controls them, who profits from them, and how that power affects the world.  The perverse incentives built into the state-bank alliance that runs our money system basically ensures inequality and war eventually, since deception, bubbles, and geopolitical conflicts are required to keep the system stable.

The economic progress of the world over the last centuries is real, and so is the spread of wealth.  But I submit that this growth of wealth would have come about anyway, since the source of this wealth is real technical advance, not elite-controlled money.  The Italian Renaissance was achieved without state-controlled money, before the state-bank alliance took control of every empire afterwards.

One natural evolution which could happen eventually is gold backed crypto. That could eliminate one of the advantages fiat has over crypto in terms of being backed by collateral.

With the internet and technology advancing, there must be a way gold & other precious metals can evolve like a pokemon into a superior form.

[BobK71]

On the other hand, tokens with high supply is one of the things that a bad altcoin possess. By law of supply and demand, once a product has very high supply, and doesn't match with the damand, the tendency is that its value will depreciate.

Not if the central banks decide to promote it!

[smokeydog]

"No central bank, or anyone, can create bitcoins past the 21 million limit."

Oh yes we can.  Bitcoingold, Bitcoinsilver.  We can fork this stuff till hell freezes over and that is a big hole in the system.


"As time goes on, the Fed will want to create more dollars.  (As it always has.)"

And so will the scammers who are taking over bitcoin and inflating the supply with these bogus forks.


"So, I'm still thinking that gold and silver, whose scarcity is secured by physics, rather than computer code, are the superior forms of money for improving our freedom from governments and bankers."

Right you are,   after thousand of years gold/sliver/copper are still holding value and bitcoin (AKA compute code) is already being corrupted and manipulated into being just another fiat.   It's looking like it was too good to be true after all.

[farhaan]

So, if Bitcoin really takes off, we think we have an honest, state-free money.  No central bank, or anyone, can create bitcoins past the 21 million limit.

Correct?  In practice, no.

What Western central banks are doing now is getting us used to the idea of multiple cryptocurrencies being viable.  When they use their printed money to buy some new cryptos, their values go up.  

One simple example of how they can continue to expand their money supply is to have a basket of cryptos against which they 'manage' exchange rates with dollars, euro, etc.  Say, at first this basket contains 1 BTC, 10 ETH, and 100 LTC, and the Fed and US government have an official or unofficial policy of keeping this basket at the price of $100K, with a combination of keeping money printing and public debt under control, and selling the BTC/ETH/LTC in its vaults to scare savers away from moving their dollars into coins.

As time goes on, the Fed will want to create more dollars.  (As it always has.)  Then they will  buy up lots of new cryptocurrency XYZ (cheap) with their dollars, and raise the price of XYZ.  After XYZ has 'proven itself in the market with its technical superiority,' the Fed will add it to the basket, and the new basket will be priced at $120K.  Since the 'base money' has expanded by 20%, the number of dollars can also be expanded by 20%.

This is only one of many variations.  The Fed doesn't even have to declare a basket (as mentioned above.)  Whatever it buys will rise in value, and will become part of the 'basket'.  Whatever it abandons will die out.  It will have all the power.

The system will be no different from the early days of gold and silver standards, but with a new twist: there are an unlimited number of new gold and silver mines, and only central banks know where they are!

So, I'm still thinking that gold and silver, whose scarcity is secured by physics, rather than computer code, are the superior forms of money for improving our freedom from governments and bankers.

Their pump and dump might with small altcoins, but will it work with Bitcoin? There are quite a few backers of Bitcoin who will remain with it, even during a Central Bank dump. In your metals analogy, there are a lot of metals which central banks could buy, but that won't impact the price of gold.

It would be easy to pump and dump and manipulate altcoins price since it has very small marketcap.But same is not the case with bitcoin as it has very big marketcap.Also,it has user base globally and not in the control of a single country like china as earlier.If the central banks try to dump bitcoins,then they would be the ultimate losers as their dumped bitcoins would be immediately bought due to huge buy wall.

But since altcoin markets do not have a significant impact on the economy or banking sectors,they would not try to manipulate it.

[buwaytress]

I think they will not just print out a lot of dollars since it will damage the economy and other than that if they think of controlling the market thru that then they are not alone since others would want that also like China (and also big businessmen out there who also want to invest) hence no once can control the marlet since it is well distributed worldwide int he current time and even more in the future which would not be possible for them anymore. In the case of another cryptocurrency other than Bitcoin then that might be possible.

The Holy Grail of the global elites has always been to engineer slow but constant inflation to eat away savers' wealth over the long term.  This will help drive people into risky assets which will help inflate the system and benefit the elites and their allies.  But, yes, they want to be careful not to do too much money printing.

For example, compare the purchasing power of $1 100 years ago versus today, and it becomes pretty clear.

I'm in the camp that is inclined to that theory, although I struggle to see much difference with Bitcoin - or crypto, for that matter. Other than the creation of a very small group of new global elites, mass adoption is now being preceded by the introduction of the current elite - the Sir Bransons and the Wall Streeters who among them can easily acquire (and already do) the majority of coins. Every new person I know who has bought Bitcoins have stopped at that.

"Oh yes I finally bought 10 bitcoins and they're safe in my <insert centralised web wallet name> account."
"It's amazing isn't it? I bought $20,000 last year and they're worth more than $100k now."

And the foundations and organisations are moving quickly around the world now, working with the elite, as elites, regulating and trying to assert control over crypto.

[krisnt80]

Its expected to banks and countries get into bitcoin, wich could push the price very high, the same way they can adopt another currencie and make us to moove into it without know, the good thing at crypto is you can jump out anytime as the coin has volume to make it happen. But yes those bastards will find a way to join crypto, i havent heard nothing from Japan, but its pretty sure they are storing bitcoins already, since they legalized it the price hasnt stoped to grow... and who know if they havent already buying it before make the announcement.

[BobK71]

I'm in the camp that is inclined to that theory, although I struggle to see much difference with Bitcoin - or crypto, for that matter. Other than the creation of a very small group of new global elites, mass adoption is now being preceded by the introduction of the current elite - the Sir Bransons and the Wall Streeters who among them can easily acquire (and already do) the majority of coins. Every new person I know who has bought Bitcoins have stopped at that.

"Oh yes I finally bought 10 bitcoins and they're safe in my <insert centralised web wallet name> account."
"It's amazing isn't it? I bought $20,000 last year and they're worth more than $100k now."

And the foundations and organisations are moving quickly around the world now, working with the elite, as elites, regulating and trying to assert control over crypto.

True, the fundamentally inflationary nature of the system will never change, as long as the state-bank alliance holds the ultimate key to power, money.  And Bitcoin will just be another way for them to hold the key.  From their point of view, it's actually easy to argue that Bitcoin is a *better* key than fiat -- and that's why they're really promoting Bitcoin.

That said, the global system working with a non-state money, like gold or Bitcoin, is more stable and more slowly inflationary than a totally fiat system.  (And that is the benefit for the elites, in the long run.)

Still, I totally agree with your basic point (if I'm reading you correctly) that it is always an elite-controlled inflationary system, whether gold, fiat, or Bitcoin.

[BobK71]

Oh yes we can.  Bitcoingold, Bitcoinsilver.  We can fork this stuff till hell freezes over and that is a big hole in the system.

Now we know why the forked altcoins never die!  Bitcoin Gold is worth US$300 now...  The MO is to bribe the current coin holders with new coins, and keep inflating.

The more supply of coins in future, the lower their price will have to be to be useful to the elites, and the less embarrassing to the dollar.  (Current coin holders will do OK as long as they hold on to their forked coins.)

[BobK71]

Look man, if it makes you feel better, just look at these things like this: no matter what we do, no matter how hard we try, and no matter what currency gets invented that may look like the most amazing one that has ever been made, we will still be enslaved by the feds and banks. We will never ever get their chains off of us. So better to just accept that fact and ride along so we can enjoy rather than thinking too much about things we cannot control nor change.

I agree into your point on which it would be always been part of our life into this kind of position on where feds and banks would really enslaved and connected to us.No matter how you strive you cant do anything and you are really just stressing yourself out.

I know this is a pretty common and understandable feeling.  My two major points in disagreement would be:

1. Every bit of extra understanding by the public is an extra bit of progress.  Believe it or not, what we have today is progress relative to the old days.  Western elites can't levy taxes or go to war without political consequences.  That they must *pretend* to support free-market ideals in order to benefit from asset issuance, and to defeat enemy regimes that *don't* pretend, is a mark of progress.  What we discuss here is not completely in vain.

2. It's ultimately about much more than losing money.  It's about economic and social pain at the bottom of the imperial system (where most professional in the West are near the top,) a Western culture of alienation and psychiatric and drug problems, pollution, terrorism and war.  Since the core of the world system (money) is corrupted by the top global elites, everything in life which must flow from this core, is affected.

[Honest Tim]

Bitcoins has a limited supply,  as they are synthesis at a slower rate, bitcoin are highly volatile because of it unavailability also.  Everyone wants to hold a bitcoin but for that they need to buy it.  The unavailability and lack of bitcoin create price hike and the other ways by which bitcoin are generated are mining,  mining is easy but it's need a lot of time.  I believe the reason of bitcoins to be the most famous and popular among other cryptos is because of its limited supply.  Although other crypto are not as famous.  As altcoins are very abundantly prese they do not have any shortage of supply,  their demands is therefore not as high.  I think this is another point which make bitcoin better than other crypto currencies.

[GCP17]

Baskets or tied money have been around a long time.
the ECU is often forgotten.
All CBs will eventually issue their own cryptos, they're just playing a waiting game.
The volatility of BTC is only matched by the volatility of fiat currencies (those of us tied to GBP painfully know that - and the vol is definitely against us.
The only options, I see, in the future, is everyone actually creating / owning their own baskets, with XAU included.
XAU is heavily held by CBs for a good reason. They will continue to hoard it, and only sell when overstocked / market price is sky high eg Swiss CB several years ago.
John Reade, the strategist at the World Gold Council, is a good person to watch follow for XAU. He's worked at investment banks, HFs and now the World Gold Council, if you want someone to follow for Gold advice; I used to work with him and thoroughly recommend his unbiased opinions.

[Milo_Kidd]

It gives us the reason why we want to earn bitcoins more. More miners and earners the more it will limited its supply and in that reason the more rises its price.

I'm badly need to it also. I have limited income even if I've working in a company.