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Author Topic: New way of fundraising/ICO: eTokens (eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc)  (Read 693 times)
faceless_crypto (OP)
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October 07, 2017, 08:45:17 PM
 #1

How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?
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October 07, 2017, 09:12:50 PM
 #2

Pretty much what Satoshi Nakamoto was aiming for in the beginning. Cryptos and everything related fo money worth what WE decide they worth. The question here should be: how far can this go? I mean, if this wave of tokens just keep randomly appearing, can this be a solid alternative to the old ones or at least embold the idea? I hope so, not only by the airdrops coming lately (free money is indeed welcome, always Smiley ) but to maintain cryptos credibility... and, trust me, this is definitely the most important point here. If we fail on this task, a general failure could even be expected in the long term shot
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October 07, 2017, 09:36:35 PM
 #3

I am conflicted on what to think about it. On one hand you have the power to the people which is us which is great. But on the other hand you have a market being created completely by unknowns to the community. If it

was a reputable person making these drops you would say okay lets wait for the development. But most of these eXXX coins either have no plan or development planned and they will fail because of it. Sure they might get

listed to an exchange but ultimately all that is doing is creating bag holding and letting the "dev" dump whatever amount they saved. Not sure how I feel on these I am pretty much spilt on the fence.

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October 07, 2017, 09:52:27 PM
 #4

this is crazy  Grin

eBTC, eLTC, eIOTA, eDASH what the hell!!!

you remember JAMIE DIMON when he said "it will finish badly" ?

see you on 2019 for the new hype cycle  Grin
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October 07, 2017, 10:12:12 PM
 #5

eGads!!

CuriousGeorge
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October 07, 2017, 10:38:04 PM
 #6

How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?
So, at the end of the story a lot of the people (unknown developers) I can say not real developers because to generate ethereum assets is very easy for me. And they are not having good experience in coder.
All of them went to the public without auditing the code. if there will be a flawed code and i think the investors should be lucky to invest in that shitcoin.

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BeggarInCryptos
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October 07, 2017, 11:27:24 PM
 #7

I personally think these airdropped e-tokens make absolutely no sense, it takes 10 minutes to create them with no specific plan in mind other than to airdrop them to people to see if by any chance they aquire some value. One or two could turn out to be positive exceptions, but most of them will just die out.

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Hyperme.sh
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October 07, 2017, 11:53:54 PM
Last edit: October 08, 2017, 11:59:16 PM by Hyperme.sh
 #8

New way of fundraising/ICO: eTokens (eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc)

How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price.

The history of eTokens is discussed here.

Actually it doesn’t protect against whales who may own a lot of the coin that is being airdropped, and as well many of the tokens might be on exchanges, so the exchanges end up with the airdropped coins. Presumably these whales can split their addresses as necessary to bypass any filtering designed to prevent dropping to whales.

It’s interesting to me from another standpoint. It seems to perhaps present a way to turn an illegal ICO issued token into a legally issued token!

Imagine you did an ICO, then those tokens were ruled to be illegal securities. So as the developers you simply fork the open source code and airdrop to all those holding the illegally issued securities. Since your new issuance did not form an investment contract, i.e. no funds were transferred, then in theory the new tokens are not securities. Of course, if you had advertised this to original investors of the token sale, then maybe the new air drop tokens would be securities, so it would need to be something done later that investors were not expecting.

Another issue is that if the same common enterprise that sold the original token sale is the one managing the airdrop, then the new air drop tokens could also perhaps be argued to be securities because the investors’ profit (gain) expectations are still dependent on the same efforts of the others who they gave their money to in the token sale.

Presumably would only airdrop if the exchanges had delisted an ICO issued token, thus exchanges would not be an issue (unless the bastards had confiscated a lot of it, yet that’s the fault of those who leave their tokens on exchanges too long). If your altcoin has an easy-to-use built-in decentralized exchange, then presumably it’s only the traders who want to short or need more (or real-time) liquidity, who are going to be using the centralized exchange.

This appears to make securities regulation unenforceable against ICO issued tokens! (The issuer and perhaps some participants could still remain culpable though)

I have actually not seen yet anything in USA securities law that incriminates an accredited or non-accredited investor for buying a security that did not meet a registration exemption (or exempt but reports not filed). Rather afaik, it is the sales of securities that can make an investor (and any centralized exchange facilitating the trade) culpable. So if the investor is selling the non-security (which was air dropped), then afaik the investor is not incriminating him/herself.

@dinofelis had long claimed (and actually that originates from @Peter R’s spin-offs idea which @smooth and others also promulgated years ago) that airdrops would be superior to hardforks. Much less contentious, as BCH has demonstrated. It enables more degrees-of-freedom, because then everyone can simply vote with their wallets independently of each other.

I personally think these airdropped e-tokens make absolutely no sense, it takes 10 minutes to create them with no specific plan in mind other than to airdrop them […]

Indeed the dilemma is which airdropped fork is the “official” or unique one. But if for example some party which was very instrumental in the ecosystem, but which was not the original issuer of the token sale, was the one who issues the airdrop, then perhaps that is sufficient to determine which fork wins. It’s competitive, decentralized, and survival-of-the-fittest paradigm.



Someone pointed out to me that perhaps dividends of an existing (legal or illegally issued) security would also be considered a security. I think it depends on the circumstances as I stated above. Let me reiterate and elaborate my thoughts.

A dividend of a security is not a security under the Howey test unless it forms an investment contract. I think that is the legal argument that the Filecoin SAFT is employing.

I argued above that a dividend of a security which was promised at the time of issuance is part of the original security, because it formed part of their profit expectations when the investor invested and thus was included in the (even implied) original investment contract. Thus I argue the SAFT will be a security.

However, if someone decides to give away tokens to someone for any reason (such as to everyone who has green eyes), this is not an investment contract because nothing was invested nor risked nor any funds pooled.

The determinant appears to be that the dividend can’t be connected to the expectations of the investment contract of the security. Thus the issuers of the security and the dividend have to be distinct from each other in terms of which efforts of others the investors of the original security where depending their profit expectations on.

It’s very important to understand the preponderance of the horizontal commonality definition of ‘common enterprise’ as I had explained in detail and cited jurisprudence for in my latest Steemit blog (see also discussion) on this matter. This means that for an investment contract to exist there has to be value transferred and pooled by the common enterprise that is making efforts which the investors’ profit expectation depends on. This involves who issues, not just what is issued. Thus what determines whether the dividend is a security is not what is issued (e.g. some derivative profit even if generalized derivative profits were expected by investors) but rather whether the derivative is connected with the common enterprise of the original security. This is why I believe EOS’ or a SAFT obfuscation of a security with a dividend token is still a security because the dividend was promised along with or is connected with the original common enterprise. Investors who have generalized expectations of dividends from unknown future parties, have no horizontal commonality with those future parties, thus no investment contract was formed. IOW, how can an investment contract be formed with some entity the investors do not know even exists at the time of their investment.

Note like all airdropped coins such as BCH, I am not proposing a chain reorganization back to the genesis block. Rather the current token distribution at some block would form the basis of those who receive the airdrop.

I really think many of you readers still do not understand the Howey test and what makes a security per the investment contract category. It is quite clear that airdropped coins if issued by an entirely different issuer as the ICO can not be an investment contract between the ICO investor and the new airdrop issuer because it does not meet the Howey test, because there is no horizontal commonality for a common enterprise connecting the original ICO issuer to the airdrop issuer. There is no transfer of funds from the ICO investors to the airdrop issuer. And there is no profit expectations for the ICO investors that depended on the airdrop issuer from the time their investment was placed to the time when the token because already free trading and an operational cryptocurrency.

It’s a loophole but not a provably illegal one. No one is issuing an investment contract if they (other than Google) issue a token to everyone who holds shares of Google.

Every ICO does not do this because first they did not think of it yet. Secondly it does not protect the issuer of the ICO from culpability, it only provides a way to unencumber the token from being a security. And lastly, because up until just past weeks, no enforcement had taken place so no one was worried about ICO issued tokens becoming illegal to use and trade and delisted.

Quote
Basically you are saying that the trick will be doing the fork/airdop of the new tokens, while ensuring that nobody had prior expectations or knowledge that it would happen? I’m not sure how to put it in my own words. Is the term for this “plausible deniability”?

Well “plausible deniability” only applies to those who are potentially culpable of some illegal matter. Since none of the investors are the issuer, then they’re are not culpable of any illegality when buying an illegally issued security (i.e. the ICO). They’re are only culpable when selling it.

So if the airdrop converts the tokens into a non-security, then the investors are no longer culpable when selling. There’s no plausible deniability involved for them. It’s simply that someone issued an airdrop which isn’t an investment contract with the original ICO investors and thus afaics not a security, thus investors are free to sell it, just like any other gift that someone might give someone. If I give you chocolate bars, they’re not an investment contract and you’re free to sell them.

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So what is the difference with this vs the distribution that was done by Byteball? They simply took a snapshot of BTC blockchain at a certain point and then handed out tokens based on your holdings. Could you not pick a blockchain and say that we'll release tokens to holders of tokens on said blockchain?

Byteball is not a security (unless perhaps they were receiving kickbacks from those exchanges or whales who received airdropped tokens). The difference between airdrops and ICOs, is that no funds are transferred from investors to the issuer, thus there is no horizontal commonality for any common enterprise managing the (even ongoing) development of the airdropped token.

Quote
Quote from: Hyperme.sh
I was not proposing that the airdrop will do a chain reorganization back to the genesis block. BCH did not do that. Why are people thinking that is what I meant???

What do you mean then? If the airdrop continues from the fork point like BCH then why is the airdrop needed? Or would the airdrop effectively double the tokens in circulation by airdropping to the original ICO investors an another batch of tokens?

My gosh. After I have explained numerous times in my writings and Steemit blogs and our communications in private, you all seem to still not understand the definition of an investment contract via the Howey test which makes a security, and the horizontal commonality requirement for the common enterprise. How many more times do I have to explain that before it is understood?

The airdrop creates a new token which has no “investment contract” connection to the ICO issued token.

Yes then there are two tokens and two forks of the decentralized ledger, but the airdrop is to whomever owns the tokens at the time of the airdrop and has nothing to do with the genesis block. But investors might be careful about selling the ICO issued token, as it might be considered a security, but some investors do not give a shit (middle finger to the regulators) and will sell it any way. Yet in any case, appears the properly airdropped token would not be a security and thus legal to sell, trade, and use.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.
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October 08, 2017, 11:40:51 PM
Last edit: October 09, 2017, 12:44:04 AM by Hyperme.sh
 #9

I chatted with a securities lawyer indirectly through another person, i.e. I do not know who the attorney is and I do not want to know (unless I need to hire such an attorney formally), but he did read my prior post. This was a very informal discussion and not to be construed as legal advice. Nothing I am writing below can be construed to have been written by any attorney. These are my own thoughts. The attorney actually did not state any of the following. These are my own conclusions.

What I realized is now obvious in hindsight, although what I say below was not articulated by the attorney. This is my own conclusion that spawned from the ideas that were raised in the brief informal brainstorming discussion. Realize I am analysing from the conservative perspective on what is reasonably safe to presume, and not wanting to lawyer up and take a huge risk of losing in some regulators’ court in the many jurisdictions around the world (i.e. multifarious jurisdictional jeopardy).

Airdrop re-issuance does not remove the fact that if was a security before, it remains a security after, because the distribution has not changed. There needs to be a stronger disconnection between the prior token which is presumed to be a security (e.g. was ICO issued) and the new airdropped (i.e. reissued) one, otherwise the economic reality has not changed: which is that token and all its derivatives are subject to the resale restrictions on the issued security.

Contrast this with a fork that does not airdrop the same distribution, i.e. not an airdropped xerox copy of a preexisting token’s distribution.

Thus if EOS is a security, the airdropped eEOS would be also. The reissuer of eEOS may or may not be culpable as a common enterprise under the Howey test depending on the circumstances. I was arguing coherently about the issuer perhaps not being culpable, but I was not arguing correctly about the token converting from security to a non-security due to the airdrop.

The mistake in my logic was that just because the issuer might not be culpable for reissuing (i.e. no investment contract formed with the original investors), that does not change the economic reality that the new distribution is the same as the prior one.

Actually the attorney did not actually state it that way, but I realized it after carrying forward his concerns into a more coherent understanding of the orthogonal facets of the culpability of the reissuer of the airdrop vs. the security-status of the airdropped token.

Yeah I can make (somewhat legally dubious but maybe successful) arguments that the reissuer is not culpable for issuing a new security (i.e. the lack horizontal commonality between ICO investors and reissuer), but this seems to have no bearing on removal of the former security status if the distribution remains a xerox copy.

IOW, if it looks and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. Xerox copying the distribution of security, is still the same security (regardless of the culpability of the issuer of the airdrop).

The new issuance is also a dividend. But unlike chocolate candy gifts given as dividends to shareholders or token holders, the airdropped token has same tradeable and fungible qualities of the ICO issued token, thus it still quacks the same and has the same familial structure (aka distribution). The economic reality has not changed.

That is to say that randomly dropping freeware like-kinded things to the investors of the security, doesn’t change the nature of the thing, even though the entity doing the dropping (giving) is not necessarily (depending on the circumstances) culpable for reissuing a security.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.
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October 09, 2017, 12:01:09 AM
 #10

How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?

I think it's great ...for those that can get involved

We will. We will. Block chain. Block chain.
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October 09, 2017, 12:30:29 AM
 #11

Participating in airdrop i think is nice
not only invite everyone to get some free coins
but also get their opinion on every aspect
this will help developer if they are going to push through or not the more members the more
it will get attention to investor, this is not just for free
this will help lessen the load in the network
transaction faster, you may think that this is just a coin, this help us
everyday, in the near future , faster transactions and most importantly, we enjoy this for now ,
but once this has been push and you dont have even 1 coin you'll regret it
just like btc

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October 09, 2017, 12:33:30 AM
 #12

the rise of etokens lately has kept me wondering, but one thing am still unsetting about is the purpose of creating these etokens, first it was eBTC and i was just trying to do some reseach on and here come eLTC, eDASH etc etc kind of crazy. what significance does this eTOKEN has over the coin TOKEN we already known of, such as btc, eth etc etc?
could it be that its one dev that is creating all these eTOKENS? atleast out of all the eTOKENs created one must gain momentum. its setting
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October 09, 2017, 09:28:31 AM
 #13

I'm getting tired of these "e" tokens already. It's pretty silly to hope they would be cost anything at all. Dont you think so?
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October 09, 2017, 09:56:00 AM
 #14

How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?

I think they have no meaning besides raising fund.

It is funny to have eLTC, ELTC, ELTCoin, ....
They are so confusing, even etherdelta.com listing eLTC and ELTC. Do you expect general users can distinguish them?

The same confusing scenario happens on WAVES platform too.

We really need some ways to fix or control the name/ticker reloading issues on this scammy issuance of eXXXX tokens.

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October 09, 2017, 10:00:15 AM
 #15

How is this protected against whales? (Sorry to lazy to search Tongue)
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October 09, 2017, 02:25:40 PM
 #16

I chatted with a securities lawyer indirectly through another person, i.e. I do not know who the attorney is and I do not want to know (unless I need to hire such an attorney formally), but he did read my prior post. This was a very informal discussion and not to be construed as legal advice. Nothing I am writing below can be construed to have been written by any attorney. These are my own thoughts. The attorney actually did not state any of the following. These are my own conclusions.

What I realized is now obvious in hindsight, although what I say below was not articulated by the attorney. This is my own conclusion that spawned from the ideas that were raised in the brief informal brainstorming discussion. Realize I am analysing from the conservative perspective on what is reasonably safe to presume, and not wanting to lawyer up and take a huge risk of losing in some regulators’ court in the many jurisdictions around the world (i.e. multifarious jurisdictional jeopardy).

Airdrop re-issuance does not remove the fact that if was a security before, it remains a security after, because the distribution has not changed. There needs to be a stronger disconnection between the prior token which is presumed to be a security (e.g. was ICO issued) and the new airdropped (i.e. reissued) one, otherwise the economic reality has not changed: which is that token and all its derivatives are subject to the resale restrictions on the issued security.

Contrast this with a fork that does not airdrop the same distribution, i.e. not an airdropped xerox copy of a preexisting token’s distribution.

Thus if EOS is a security, the airdropped eEOS would be also. The reissuer of eEOS may or may not be culpable as a common enterprise under the Howey test depending on the circumstances. I was arguing coherently about the issuer perhaps not being culpable, but I was not arguing correctly about the token converting from security to a non-security due to the airdrop.

The mistake in my logic was that just because the issuer might not be culpable for reissuing (i.e. no investment contract formed with the original investors), that does not change the economic reality that the new distribution is the same as the prior one.

Actually the attorney did not actually state it that way, but I realized it after carrying forward his concerns into a more coherent understanding of the orthogonal facets of the culpability of the reissuer of the airdrop vs. the security-status of the airdropped token.

Yeah I can make (somewhat legally dubious but maybe successful) arguments that the reissuer is not culpable for issuing a new security (i.e. the lack horizontal commonality between ICO investors and reissuer), but this seems to have no bearing on removal of the former security status if the distribution remains a xerox copy.

IOW, if it looks and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. Xerox copying the distribution of security, is still the same security (regardless of the culpability of the issuer of the airdrop).

The new issuance is also a dividend. But unlike chocolate candy gifts given as dividends to shareholders or token holders, the airdropped token has same tradeable and fungible qualities of the ICO issued token, thus it still quacks the same and has the same familial structure (aka distribution). The economic reality has not changed.

That is to say that randomly dropping freeware like-kinded things to the investors of the security, doesn’t change the nature of the thing, even though the entity doing the dropping (giving) is not necessarily (depending on the circumstances) culpable for reissuing a security.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.

using an airdrop to avoid the securities problem seems to be just trying to use a loophole to get around the problem. i would think such a loophole would be closed fast. if there is a one to one correlation between the tokens it will be treated the same as the original imo. even if it seems to pass the hewey test initially i would worry that such a token will wind up being treated as a security down the line, jeopardizing any project associated with it.
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October 09, 2017, 02:59:13 PM
 #17

Yeah I can make (somewhat legally dubious but maybe successful) arguments that the reissuer is not culpable for issuing a new security (i.e. the lack horizontal commonality between ICO investors and reissuer), but this seems to have no bearing on removal of the former security status if the distribution remains a xerox copy.
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October 09, 2017, 03:28:52 PM
 #18

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puremage111
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October 09, 2017, 03:31:24 PM
 #19

How do you think recent launching of many eTokens such eBTC, eLTC, eDash, etc will change/modify the way of fundraising and coin development, because its protected from whales which can buy big pie of any coin on ICO stage and manipulate price. Such coins could develop really by community, not only by certain group of people. Some IT products like Firefox, Linux are free and open sourced and developing by community, why not crypto, which aimed to be so?

Except from eBTC which is the pioneer in this recent trend, i guess most other are just mainly looking for quick profit as they premined themselves.
When it is launch, i expect them to immediately dumb
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October 09, 2017, 03:34:34 PM
 #20

That all was shit token. But it make me a free money so i cannot blamed anyone that fall to be a victim to this shit token. It just a pump and dump token just wait for it to die. Just like that. Token that has no use instead to be dump.
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