Lets think about the consequences of selling bitcoins to bankers. Our enemy.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

I’ll be honest, the hoarding mania has got to go if bitcoin protocol is ever to support a fully fledged BTC currency.

Don’t get me wrong, I do agree that speculators are an essential part in building a bitcoin-based economy, but can we really rely on this trigger-happy group to provide our beloved BTC with the key functions of money: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value?

Think about it for a minute, how do the key functions of money ever come into existence — what makes them tick, so to speak? In particular, what groups of money users are responsible for sparking and sustaining each of these functions? For example, would BTC have a “unit of account” function if it wasn’t for the miners keeping the block chain alive and intact?

It seems to me, the parties responsible for infusing BTC with the key functions of money are:

Unit of account is a product of miners contribution;
Medium of exchange is a product of consumers contribution;
Store of value is a product of merchants contribution.

But what about the speculators, you may ask? Well, as it turns out, speculators merely help to grease the fourth function of money for the money changers (Mt.Gox et al.): a standard of deferred payment. However, as you may have already come to your own realization, when it comes to BTC, that particular function of money would soon be irrelevant, since BTC is truly a global currency. So, unless some of you (and especially miners) are planning on establishing trading agreements with the aliens any time soon, the money changers and their highly speculative worker bees shouldn't be your main focus.

So, let's use our speculator-driven bubbles wisely, shall we?... Update a mining equipment, bootstrap a new product/service, etc... BTC is meant to be spent, not hoarded! It's what makes it a real currency. I also hope that some of you will find time to read between the lines, as I wouldn't want a panic to ensue, if you know what I mean... Godspeed!


If and when fiat fails, and we still have not determined what 1 satoshi is worth, no arguments. Bitcoin will also fail with the fiat. Which is the dreaded"deflationary trap." Well of course if its tied to inflationary fiat.

Dont SELL bitcoins, trade them.

It would be a good thing if all fiat was cut off from bitcoin, then people might wake the F up and realize how it really works.

All exchanges should disapeer, and getting ahold of a bitcoin, mean you must EARN it through work. Or you 'know someone'

[Razick]

I’ll be honest, the hoarding mania has got to go if bitcoin protocol is ever to support a fully fledged BTC currency.

Don’t get me wrong, I do agree that speculators are an essential part in building a bitcoin-based economy, but can we really rely on this trigger-happy group to provide our beloved BTC with the key functions of money: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value?

Think about it for a minute, how do the key functions of money ever come into existence — what makes them tick, so to speak? In particular, what groups of money users are responsible for sparking and sustaining each of these functions? For example, would BTC have a “unit of account” function if it wasn’t for the miners keeping the block chain alive and intact?

It seems to me, the parties responsible for infusing BTC with the key functions of money are:

Unit of account is a product of miners contribution;
Medium of exchange is a product of consumers contribution;
Store of value is a product of merchants contribution.

But what about the speculators, you may ask? Well, as it turns out, speculators merely help to grease the fourth function of money for the money changers (Mt.Gox et al.): a standard of deferred payment. However, as you may have already come to your own realization, when it comes to BTC, that particular function of money would soon be irrelevant, since BTC is truly a global currency. So, unless some of you (and especially miners) are planning on establishing trading agreements with the aliens any time soon, the money changers and their highly speculative worker bees shouldn't be your main focus.

So, let's use our speculator-driven bubbles wisely, shall we?... Update a mining equipment, bootstrap a new product/service, etc... BTC is meant to be spent, not hoarded! It's what makes it a real currency. I also hope that some of you will find time to read between the lines, as I wouldn't want a panic to ensue, if you know what I mean... Godspeed!

Tl:dr, but I have to say something based on your title:

Most of us here are Libertarians here, how in the world can a truly free market economy exist without banks? 1) banks are useful both to consumers and businesses and 2) if you support minimal regulation, do you suggest that banks be banned? That sounds like big government to me.

Also, contrary to some of the idea floating around, Bitcoin can be treated much like cash as far as banks are concerned, so it doesn't prevent or even change Bitcoin much (except that lower interest rates--compared to unmanipulated market rates--would likely be common).

Banks are not the enemy, red tape and bloated bureacracies are.

[lch]

In a deflationary currency, such as bitcoins, gold, and silver hoarding is a natural occurrence. Therefore I'm fine with it.

In order to encourage the behaviour you want, the only way is to turn bitcoin into an inflationary currency. Which is something I dont want to see.

I think the more important issue, is how can a person with 0 bitcoins obtain a bitcoin or at least a fraction of it through the system?. Currently, there are none, because mining is already a high cost activity. I think it would be nice, if we can find a solution to this problem.

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

Bitcoin should at all attempts avoid trading a bitcoin for cash. A bitcoin economy is born, the current financial system collapses so something new can be built in its place. Banks will be determined if they are needed, after the collapse process occurs. Hopefully we will have a sane world, sane monetary policy,

One could announce to the world a start date to begin mining a new altcoin, given everyone in the world had a fairer chance and warning to be prepared, it could definately be worth becoming the world reserve currency. Taking the millions and billions some of you have made, into dust.

People will be cautious when some learn how much money some people made. as its a get rich quick ponzi scheme. I do believe the value of a bitcoin will be found when it is no longer valued in $$$

1BTC = XXXX amount of goods or services. No more questions. One hour of basic labor = 8satoshi's

The current aspect of deflation is found in bitcoin's connection to its price in dollars as dollar is inflationary.

The real deflation is simply when item are denominated in BTC and there over times are less BTC but that is not nearly as volatile this dollar scammy thing.

[TippingPoint]

One could announce to the world ...

That is at least one weakness.

[TheGovernedSelf]

I do believe the value of a bitcoin will be found when it is no longer valued in $$$

I think you meant "lost".

BTC/USD is a massively important metric to the bitcoin economy, and no matter what regulations are set or what you think of the situation, it isn't going away.
Without it, there is no way to measure the bitcoin economy to the USD economy.

[lch]

I do believe the value of a bitcoin will be found when it is no longer valued in $$$

I think you meant "lost".

BTC/USD is a massively important metric to the bitcoin economy, and no matter what regulations are set or what you think of the situation, it isn't going away.
Without it, there is no way to measure the bitcoin economy to the USD economy.

Thats only true, because people are unable to obtain what they want, with bitcoins. The situation will change, once more merchants accept bitcoins.

[TheGovernedSelf]

I do believe the value of a bitcoin will be found when it is no longer valued in $$$

I think you meant "lost".

BTC/USD is a massively important metric to the bitcoin economy, and no matter what regulations are set or what you think of the situation, it isn't going away.
Without it, there is no way to measure the bitcoin economy to the USD economy.

Thats only true, because people are unable to obtain what they want, with bitcoins. The situation will change, once more merchants accept bitcoins.

No. It is only true because their cost of living (BILLS, FOOD, GAS) is denominated in USD.

[lch]

No. It is only true because their cost of living (BILLS, FOOD, GAS) is denominated in USD.

Doesn't that mean the same thing?

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

No. It is only true because their cost of living (BILLS, FOOD, GAS) is denominated in USD.

Doesn't that mean the same thing?

LOL

[Foxpup]

It would be a good thing if all fiat was cut off from bitcoin, then people might wake the F up and realize how it really works.

All exchanges should disapeer, and getting ahold of a bitcoin, mean you must EARN it through work. Or you 'know someone'

I think you don't have the faintest idea how money works. Money is a medium of exchange. It allows people to trade things they have for things the want. With me so far? Now what happens when two people who want to trade are each using different things as money? Neither of them has or wants the other's money, so they can't trade, right? Wrong, as long as both forms of money can be easily exchanged for one another. Then they can use a form of money they don't want, but it's okay because they can exchange it at a fair price for the one they do want. The ability to easily exchange one form of money for another is absolutely necessary for it to actually be used.

[ProfMac]

In a deflationary currency, such as bitcoins, gold, and silver hoarding is a natural occurrence. Therefore I'm fine with it.

In order to encourage the behaviour you want, the only way is to turn bitcoin into an inflationary currency. Which is something I dont want to see.

I think the more important issue, is how can a person with 0 bitcoins obtain a bitcoin or at least a fraction of it through the system?. Currently, there are none, because mining is already a high cost activity. I think it would be nice, if we can find a solution to this problem.

A bank here has customers from another country, and they send money home.  Bitcoin is cheap.  A bank to bank settling mechanism with bitcoin would help the banks, and in turn make banks protect bitcoin.  Don't treat them as an enemy, treat them as a powerful neighbor that we want to form an alliance with.

To get bitcoins without mining:  do what you do with money without a printing press.  Work, or sell goods & services.  I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins. 
Find what you can sell.

[lch]

To get bitcoins without mining:  do what you do with money without a printing press.  Work, or sell goods & services.  I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins. 
Find what you can sell.

Well I agree that is true, however that doing solve the underlying problem of scarcity.

A person who does not have a single unit of currency, be it bitcoin, USD, or otherwise are subjected to the control of whoever is holding the currency. I believe the problem can be alleviated if there was a way for the person with 0 currency to obtain some currency via the system itself. Because the system has no interest in manipulating its users.

With scarcity its essentially a zero sum game. Where either you have it or you don't. Bitcoin need not be such a system. At least that is what i believe.

[CurbsideProphet]

If and when fiat fails, and we still have not determined what 1 satoshi is worth, no arguments. Bitcoin will also fail with the fiat.

And what do you propose so that everyone comes to a unanimous consensus for value?

Dont SELL bitcoins, trade them.

I'll give you a bag of 100% Kona coffee for 1BTC.  Deal? 

[frott]

Bitcoin should at all attempts avoid trading a bitcoin for cash. A bitcoin economy is born, the current financial system collapses so something new can be built in its place.

I am with you in terms of sentiment... in terms of practical reality, you're on your own (maybe on the moon!)


As much as I want bitcoin to be what you're saying, you're not really providing a roadmap for how bitcoin will become mainstream without attaching to it first.


what you're saying is as if bitcoin is a tsunami that will crash onto the mainstream and crush it under its sheer force of will, creating a new entity.
EVERYTHING, ONLY, BITCOIN

what is far more realistic is bitcoin is a stream parallel to the mainstream that will widen until it joins with the mainstream and forms a wider mainstream. BITCOIN ALONGSIDE OTHERS


to get literal, wider adoption is great. but with that comes more regulation if more people are to use it. in short, govs aren't worried about bitcoin as more than a few smart people realizing clearly how money could work (and a whole lotta dumb people feeling the sentiment without really knowing why), because in the end of the day, as long as there's a gov, there is a gov approved currency and that's what you have to give the gov, and that's what gov sanctioned businesses will give you.

the counter force here is that the gov wants more tracking, not less.

[frott]

To get bitcoins without mining:  do what you do with money without a printing press.  Work, or sell goods & services.  I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins. 
Find what you can sell.

Well I agree that is true, however that doing solve the underlying problem of scarcity.

A person who does not have a single unit of currency, be it bitcoin, USD, or otherwise are subjected to the control of whoever is holding the currency. I believe the problem can be alleviated if there was a way for the person with 0 currency to obtain some currency via the system itself. Because the system has no interest in manipulating its users.

With scarcity its essentially a zero sum game. Where either you have it or you don't. Bitcoin need not be such a system. At least that is what i believe.

Well I believe that is the idea behind ripple. I had the same concept as you, calling it IdeaCoin, where it doesn't matter what the underlying implement is... but the problem comes down to "doing work" for it, aka, moving the blockchain along = generating coin.

That is the nature of btc, and will be unchangeable. The valuation would go bananas if suddenly there wasn't a scarcity issue.

[tutkarz]

I’ll be honest, the hoarding mania has got to go if bitcoin protocol is ever to support a fully fledged BTC currency. (...)

and here i stopped reading that text. if you think people should stop hoarding bitcoins then it means you have no clue what bitcoin is about and how it works. nor how economy works. im not going to explain it here because it was said many times, just read more topics on this forum before trying to suggest more of such statements.

[wopwop]

bitcoin is about hoarding and becoming rich by sitting on your ass because it's going up yes really this is true ask tutkarz

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

In a deflationary currency, such as bitcoins, gold, and silver hoarding is a natural occurrence. Therefore I'm fine with it.

In order to encourage the behaviour you want, the only way is to turn bitcoin into an inflationary currency. Which is something I dont want to see.

I think the more important issue, is how can a person with 0 bitcoins obtain a bitcoin or at least a fraction of it through the system?. Currently, there are none, because mining is already a high cost activity. I think it would be nice, if we can find a solution to this problem.

A bank here has customers from another country, and they send money home.  Bitcoin is cheap.  A bank to bank settling mechanism with bitcoin would help the banks, and in turn make banks protect bitcoin.  Don't treat them as an enemy, treat them as a powerful neighbor that we want to form an alliance with.

To get bitcoins without mining:  do what you do with money without a printing press.  Work, or sell goods & services.  I try to convince my wife that bitcoin is valuable, because I can get on the web and buy coffee with them.

Someone sells coffee, and they get bitcoins. 
Find what you can sell.

The banks will never be your friend. Hindsight vision is 20-20 right?

[CtrlAltBernanke420]

bitcoin is about hoarding and becoming rich by sitting on your ass because it's going up yes really this is true ask tutkarz

I do think there are possible routes to disperse bitcoin to 2billion people, more than 1 satotishi also. There are ways to get adoption moving quickly. That is something the banks will freak the F out over.