What is the story with Metabank and Bitfury miners...

[jspielberg]

I have been mulling over Bitfury/Metabank the last couple of days. 
Waiting for Avalon Batch 3 to ship and the rising network hash rate will do that.

Here is a summary of what I believe to be the facts:

• bitfury is well respected and a confirmed expert in the FPGA mining space
• metabank is a somewhat respected smaller bitcoin exchange like the russian version of campbx
• bitfury has designed a 65nm asic with compelling second generation specs
• metabank is selling a 120GHs miner based on Bitfury's chip design for ~19BTC but only selling within Russia
• the miner will not be standalone and will require specially provided mining software and eventually cgminer (though maybe not initially)
• bitcoin talkers with russian connections are setting up export businesses to pass through the domestic only sales for btw 3 and 8 BTC in profit
• most of these exporters are small operations and can't front the capital for a useful form of escrow (ie. if metabank doesn't deliver)

Risks:

• When prices/power are too good to be true... they probably aren't true... Bitfury miner is bordering on too good to be true.
• If bitfury is designing the chip but not the system, there are integration risks to the schedule
• Metabank might not be legit
• The export business isn't legit
• Miner may not be compatible with non-Russian power standards
• Miner for security reasons may not be exportable from Russia

Here are my Questions:

• Is bitfury building the whole machine too or just the asic (like BFL selling their chips) and Metabank has the first batch of chips with which to build their miner?
• Have any of the Russians here dealt with Metabank?
• Do they seem legit (i.e. is their business established enough that they would have more to lose by failing to deliver?)
• Will the miner be "easy" to use outside russia?

What other questions do people have?

[1715034494]

1715034494

[1715034494]

1715034494

[pizza]

I'm taking my chances with KNCminer rather than shady russians, american escrow exporting lol. At least knc has a reputable company that has been doing this for 12 years, not some gay asian in a basement like Avalon. Even KNC is a risk with all their expertise.

[stripykitteh]

This is a good idea for a thread.

I can add a snippet of info for you: Luke-Jr has ordered one of the units (presumably with his own BTC) to add BFGMiner support:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=223656.msg2351778#msg2351778

On that same thread there is some discussion of the legality of exporting the hardware from Russia. BitCentury believe there is no reason you can't but they are getting their lawyers to double-check.

BitCentury seem OK and appear to have already thought about many of the issues, but as a non-Russian it is harder to verify Metabank's reputation, apart from the fact they have been in business for a while. There is to me a fair bit of risk about the project that in my mind is moderated by the reputation of Bitfury and the progress already made in developing the ASICs (i.e., the masks have been made and the engineering run is complete). He is expected to receive the engineering run batch of chips in about a week or so - if they check out, the full production run will happen shortly thereafter. So at least we should know very soon whether the production run of chips is a go or no-go.

[TheSwede75]

I'm taking my chances with KNCminer rather than shady russians, american escrow exporting lol. At least knc has a reputable company that has been doing this for 12 years, not some gay asian in a basement like Avalon. Even KNC is a risk with all their expertise.

Personally I'm no less inclined to deal with a 'mad Russian' then I would be dealing with 'crazy Chinese' such as Avalon at a early stage. Of course there are risks involved, but from my research the possibility/chance that Metabank/Bitfury does indeed deliver is greater then it being a scam, and their price/gh is attractive enough that even if you drop the delivery/scam chance to 50/50 it's a investment that statistically looks very attractive.

[Bitcoinorama]

From what I understand Bitfury has credibility, but is not an engineer. He clearly doesn't want the hassle of dealing with overseas payments and shipping. I don't blame him, especially as he has local knowledge, and more importantly concerns w.r.t. Russian government, revenue and customs. If he is uncertain, what the hell should you be??!

Metabank's role in this is where it becomes unclear.

Almost certainly there will be scams involving intermediaries as they act as exporters. To me this is the weakest link in a convoluted chain.

This one currently is wayy above my risk comfort level base on common sense...

[jspielberg]

I think the "export scam" risk can be mitigated by the fact that russia being russia and a bunch of us, know a guy who knows a guy, who knows a guy in low places in Russia.

I think just like Avalon chips sales businesses springing up, while not as endearing, I can see some enterprising russians setting up a cottage industry of enforcer types reminding exporters of their responsibilities.  I think a group of angry scammed miners would be willing to chip in a couple of BTC each to encourage shipment.  Obviously worst case scenario for everyone.

I guess we will see... I ordered 1 this morning (but I am a bit of risk taker).  I guess going with two different groups could mitigate the risk and amortize the cost delta (eggs/basket... etc.).

[dan99]

I'm taking my chances with KNCminer rather than shady russians, american escrow exporting lol. At least knc has a reputable company that has been doing this for 12 years, not some gay asian in a basement like Avalon. Even KNC is a risk with all their expertise.

You sounds like very Racists..

[Bitcoinorama]

I'm taking my chances with KNCminer rather than shady russians, american escrow exporting lol. At least knc has a reputable company that has been doing this for 12 years, not some gay asian in a basement like Avalon. Even KNC is a risk with all their expertise.

You sounds like very Racists..

I detect more ignorance than racial undertones.

Either way Yifu is a bit of a freakin' legend in my book...(so far )

[ironcross360]

I'm taking my chances with KNCminer rather than shady russians, american escrow exporting lol. At least knc has a reputable company that has been doing this for 12 years, not some gay asian in a basement like Avalon. Even KNC is a risk with all their expertise.

Wheres the proof of the 12 years?

[jspielberg]

I'm taking my chances with KNCminer rather than shady russians, american escrow exporting lol. At least knc has a reputable company that has been doing this for 12 years, not some gay asian in a basement like Avalon. Even KNC is a risk with all their expertise.

You sounds like very Racists..

All types in the mining world...
I wonder how the global mining community feels about Americans if most of their contact is this sub forum and BFL?

Anyway, back on topic...
There are a number of links as Bitcoinarma noted, that has to go right for this not to end in disappointment.  Unfortunately, unless I want to fly to Moscow myself, the use of an exporter is required.

[dan99]

I have been mulling over Bitfury/Metabank the last couple of days. 
Waiting for Avalon Batch 3 to ship and the rising network hash rate will do that.

Here is a summary of what I believe to be the facts:

• bitfury is well respected and a confirmed expert in the FPGA mining space
• metabank is a somewhat respected smaller bitcoin exchange like the russian version of campbx
• bitfury has designed a 65nm asic with compelling second generation specs
• metabank is selling a 120GHs miner based on Bitfury's chip design for ~19BTC but only selling within Russia
• the miner will not be standalone and will require specially provided mining software and eventually cgminer (though maybe not initially)
• bitcoin talkers with russian connections are setting up export businesses to pass through the domestic only sales for btw 3 and 8 BTC in profit
• most of these exporters are small operations and can't front the capital for a useful form of escrow (ie. if metabank doesn't deliver)

Risks:

• When prices/power are too good to be true... they probably aren't true... Bitfury miner is bordering on too good to be true.
• If bitfury is designing the chip but not the system, there are integration risks to the schedule
• Metabank might not be legit
• The export business isn't legit
• Miner may not be compatible with non-Russian power standards
• Miner for security reasons may not be exportable from Russia

Here are my Questions:

• Is bitfury building the whole machine too or just the asic (like BFL selling their chips) and Metabank has the first batch of chips with which to build their miner?
• Have any of the Russians here dealt with Metabank?
• Do they seem legit (i.e. is their business established enough that they would have more to lose by failing to deliver?)
• Will the miner be "easy" to use outside russia?

What other questions do people have?

Risks:

1) You never see them before either photos or videos

2) Have you check their company background?

3) You are paying by bitcoin only

4) Only sell inside Russia you want them you have to collect yourself

5) Seems like a very elaborate scam

6) They can make a million excuses not to pay you etc.. can you speak Russian or you dare go over there to find them?

[Xialla]

I'm taking my chances with KNCminer rather than shady russians, american escrow exporting lol. At least knc has a reputable company that has been doing this for 12 years, not some gay asian in a basement like Avalon. Even KNC is a risk with all their expertise.

lol +1

[seleme]

My biggest concern is that there might be some problems with export from Russia. I have a feeling there is some catch with them not selling outside of Russia, I doubt it's only the hassle. It's huge business opportunity, can't see anyone missing it for not being bothered.

I'm definitely more comfortable with kncminer though I'm not sure if I'm going to buy it yet.

[glendall]

Too much risk for me.  If kncminer and bitfury were the only options available I'd just stick to gpu's. I think I have 'new asic fatigue' and will just sit out, at least until the Klondikes, which look the most promising to me... but hey, the reward potential is there for those bolder than me.

I'm not going to even entertain the notion of trying to track down some guy who scammed me, in Russia... though I'd hope it be something like the movie Red Heat if I did.

[Amph]

never pre-order anything, just wait until asic will become more present

[stripykitteh]

I guess we will see... I ordered 1 this morning (but I am a bit of risk taker).  I guess going with two different groups could mitigate the risk and amortize the cost delta (eggs/basket... etc.).

I ordered one as well. It's definitely my riskiest investment in BTC so far. I've got other more relatively conservative investments going which are doing well which I suppose put me in the mood to speculate. Hopefully this is the next Avalon, not the next BFL...

[klee]

Nice thread, keeping it alive..

[jspielberg]

Not much more to report.

Looks like were two main group buys which are now closed.
1) Bitcentury --- most expensive but most reliable exporter option
Total: 57 x 120GHs miners ordered for a total of 6.84TH/s
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226846.msg2387673#msg2387673

2) Pidobir --- least expensive but appears reputable with escrow option with JohnK
Total:  22 x 120GHs miners ordered for a total of 2.28TH/s
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=224332.msg2357747#msg2357747

Bitfury has received his chips and he has validated them as working with test vectors.  Power looks to be a in line with modeled expectations.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228677.msg2515472#msg2515472

I expect there to not be much to report for a month or so, but the Bitcentury link above seems to keep up to date.

[Rampion]

Bitfury is legit, and worth the gamble IMO.

Avalon looked riskier than BFL in October, and we know how that played out

[klee]

Not much more to report.

Looks like were two main group buys which are now closed.
1) Bitcentury --- most expensive but most reliable exporter option
Total: 57 x 120GHs miners ordered for a total of 6.84TH/s
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226846.msg2387673#msg2387673

2) Pidobir --- least expensive but appears reputable with escrow option with JohnK
Total:  22 x 120GHs miners ordered for a total of 2.28TH/s
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=224332.msg2357747#msg2357747

Bitfury has received his chips and he has validated them as working with test vectors.  Power looks to be a in line with modeled expectations.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228677.msg2515472#msg2515472

I expect there to not be much to report for a month or so, but the Bitcentury link above seems to keep up to date.

Let's see how the race between TerraHash, KnC & Bitfury will end...