BFL rewarding Jalapeno orders at the expense of LS/S/MR orders

[Bitsaurus]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't BFL massively rewarding purchasers of Bitforce 5 (previously Jalapenos) at the expense of people who have Little Single/Single/Minirigs ordered.

-Consider that some early Bitforce 5 recipients who may have orders placed after LS/S/MR orders have been mining for up to a month now
-Consider that BFL is now allowing optional upgrading from 5GH to 7GH for the Bitforce 5 - 2GH/s for $100 or so which is much less than the same power from ASICMiner.  LS/S/MR have not been given the option to buy any additional power.
-Bitforce 5/7 early recipients may possibly see a return of their initial BTC payment if they ordered in the first week. LS/S/MR owners with equally early orders will have decreasing chance for that return as each day passes.

I'm surprised that more LS/S/MR owners aren't protesting this one sided bonus for people who happened to order the "right" item.

July Bitforce 5 orders are now shipping (unknown if shipping with 7GH upgrade option as yet) and still not a single LS/S/MR owner from 6/23/12 has received a working unit.

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[echris1]

Yeah, I was actually just thinking the same thing.  I actually upgraded my two jalapeno orders to a little single, and people past my order date are now getting their jalapenos.  I don't really care how, I just want my 30gh of asic, I'll gladly take 6 jalapenos to get to that.

[Bitsaurus]

Well at the very least they should let these "disadvantaged" users be able to add a little more umph to their order.  I'm not advocating letting a Single owner be able to double his/her order,but maybe allow them to tack on a 7GH unit to their 50/60GH unit.

It was mentioned many times by LS/S/MR owners that BFL could offer a free Bitforce 5 for their delay but I doubt BFL customers will ever see anything free.

At the least they should be given the opportunity to supplement their hashrate like the Jalapeno people are doing.

[Bicknellski]

Do they have LS/S and MR's?

Not like they have shipped them since they don't have any working right?

[wrenchmonkey]

I don't understand what you're asking for, I guess. The LS/S/MR aren't available to ship. They're still working on those. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be shipping any product out, just because they can't ship everything?

I get that it sucks that the other models aren't ready, but there are WAAAAY more Jalapeno orders than there are of anything else, so it just makes sense to start filling the queue that they're able to fill, while they work toward completing the other products in their line. It's a shitty situation, but what justification is there for punishing the bulk of their customers who ordered Jalapenos?

This sounds an awful lot like a conversation I heard between one of my friends and his daughter recently:

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

[hexed]

blah blah blah..

and..

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

This is really a bad analogy.  I hate it when people aren't good at analogies but think they are.

This isn't like someone getting their order for some retail product, and another person getting a different retail product (lets say two different next gen Apple Ipads), and one of them breaks for 1 customer therefore they purposefully send out an update that damages the other customer's product.  That would be a fitting real world application of your example and no, that would make absolutely no sense.

Besides being a person who consistently defends BFL no matter WHAT they do, you also fail to see the whole picture of things and let your trolling cloud your better judgment.  (yeah yeah.. we know.. your excuse is that you like to troll trolls, but you don't troll ALL trolls, you just troll the people who troll BFL threads.  Your excuse is ridiculous at this point until we see you troll the people who also troll BFL haters.) 

The big picture here is that the longer it takes to receive, there are two factors at work.  The longer it takes for one customer to make a better profit or ROI AND as more people receive asic devices, the more the difficulty goes up which means they make even less the longer it takes.

Ex.  Say for instance, they start up some serious production of Jalapenos.  Let's say within 1 month they are able to assemble and ship out 2000 jalapenos from orders.  Let's also say for this theoretical example, that it takes them 2 more months to start sending out Little Singles, Singles, and Mini-rigs.  That means there are 4000 jalapeno's out in the wild by the time these other devices are even shipped.  Let's also say that some of these jalapeno orders were made in January 2013 because they(BFL) are knocking out their queue.  That means people who ordered 6 months earlier, for devices that are worth 10 times the price, and 10 times the performance, are watching $2,413,904 a MONTH (current difficulty) being made by these 4000 jalapenos (even averaged 5GH/s to be a conservative hash rate) and they still have not received their device. 

Lets get even more granular.  I have August orders, but I have a buddy with a July order of 1 single @ 60GH/s.  Let's also say someone else has a July order for 4 jalapeno's.  Let's say he receives them next week, and my buddy's Single order doesn't get to him until August.  That means this jalapeno customer will make about 2500$ by the time a Single shows up on the other customer's doorstep.  I would personally feel slighted if I spent more money ~$1300 for a Single vs ~$700 for 4 jalapenos, and made less money.  These are people that spent MORE MONEY to fund a company's project.  These are people who made MORE of a risk.  By the time the Single order comes, the difficulty could easily double.  And the reason it doubled?  Because 20 TERAHASH has been added to the network due to all of these jalapenos, not including Asic Miner, Avalon chips, and maybe even BFL chips coming to the market. 

So seriously?  You cannot see that?  Anyone who says people shouldn't be disappointed by this arrangement is just trolling for trolling sakes.  Both camps have legitimate complaints and people who cannot come to grips with that are living in fantasy land.

If you want to be a "BitcoinTalk Forum Troll Avenger" you have to put in the work and not be selective.

[Tehfiend]

I don't understand what you're asking for, I guess. The LS/S/MR aren't available to ship. They're still working on those. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be shipping any product out, just because they can't ship everything?

Good ol wrechmonkey... Did you even read his post? No he's not suggesting that so your cute story doesn't apply.

Well at the very least they should let these "disadvantaged" users be able to add a little more umph to their order.  I'm not advocating letting a Single owner be able to double his/her order,but maybe allow them to tack on a 7GH unit to their 50/60GH unit.

[hexed]

blah blah blah

I TOTALLY get it now.  You have late April Jalapeno orders.  So obviously you would rather see all the jalapenos get fulfilled before the other devices.  Yeah, your opinion is not biased at ALL. 

[DPoS]

the mentality that BFL customers are made to cultivate is past amway levels...

must be shills from that company posting this crap to the feeble minds that remain


I guess in the schister handbook, it is well known that a certain group of people will always be grabbed in these nets

[PuertoLibre]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't BFL massively rewarding purchasers of Bitforce 5 (previously Jalapenos) at the expense of people who have Little Single/Single/Minirigs ordered.

-Consider that some early Bitforce 5 recipients who may have orders placed after LS/S/MR orders have been mining for up to a month now
-Consider that BFL is now allowing optional upgrading from 5GH to 7GH for the Bitforce 5 - 2GH/s for $100 or so which is much less than the same power from ASICMiner.  LS/S/MR have not been given the option to buy any additional power.
-Bitforce 5/7 early recipients may possibly see a return of their initial BTC payment if they ordered in the first week. LS/S/MR owners with equally early orders will have decreasing chance for that return as each day passes.

I'm surprised that more LS/S/MR owners aren't protesting this one sided bonus for people who happened to order the "right" item.

July Bitforce 5 orders are now shipping (unknown if shipping with 7GH upgrade option as yet) and still not a single LS/S/MR owner from 6/23/12 has received a working unit.

Probably because they understand that 5Gh/s are about to crap out in terms of profit.

Yielding too little means that a very high refund rate is very likely. So it gets the priority, I would speculate.

[newmars]

From the twitter
"Unofficial BFL News ‏@BFL_News 17h
BFL Forum "Latest News" - Jalapenos shipping en mass now.  LS/S/MR boards done, shipping soon."

http://ow.ly/i/2hdwg  arriving on your doorstep soon?

[mezzomix]

I'm surprised that more LS/S/MR owners aren't protesting this one sided bonus for people who happened to order the "right" item.

I (Single Pre-Order from June 2012) complain everytime BFL pulls another stunt (sell ASICs before Miners are shiped, charity donation into their own pockets). But on the other hand I lost nearly all of my ~ 200 BTC investment and BFL care a shit about complaints.

[PuertoLibre]

Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.

Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...

God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.

[DPoS]

Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.

Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...

God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.

you really think those jally's had any impact compared to the tidal wave from ASICminer the last month?

[Rakessh]

blah blah blah..

and..

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

This is really a bad analogy.  I hate it when people aren't good at analogies but think they are.

This isn't like someone getting their order for some retail product, and another person getting a different retail product (lets say two different next gen Apple Ipads), and one of them breaks for 1 customer therefore they purposefully send out an update that damages the other customer's product.  That would be a fitting real world application of your example and no, that would make absolutely no sense.

Besides being a person who consistently defends BFL no matter WHAT they do, you also fail to see the whole picture of things and let your trolling cloud your better judgment.  (yeah yeah.. we know.. your excuse is that you like to troll trolls, but you don't troll ALL trolls, you just troll the people who troll BFL threads.  Your excuse is ridiculous at this point until we see you troll the people who also troll BFL haters.) 

The big picture here is that the longer it takes to receive, there are two factors at work.  The longer it takes for one customer to make a better profit or ROI AND as more people receive asic devices, the more the difficulty goes up which means they make even less the longer it takes.

Ex.  Say for instance, they start up some serious production of Jalapenos.  Let's say within 1 month they are able to assemble and ship out 2000 jalapenos from orders.  Let's also say for this theoretical example, that it takes them 2 more months to start sending out Little Singles, Singles, and Mini-rigs.  That means there are 4000 jalapeno's out in the wild by the time these other devices are even shipped.  Let's also say that some of these jalapeno orders were made in January 2013 because they(BFL) are knocking out their queue.  That means people who ordered 6 months earlier, for devices that are worth 10 times the price, and 10 times the performance, are watching $2,413,904 a MONTH (current difficulty) being made by these 4000 jalapenos (even averaged 5GH/s to be a conservative hash rate) and they still have not received their device. 

Lets get even more granular.  I have August orders, but I have a buddy with a July order of 1 single @ 60GH/s.  Let's also say someone else has a July order for 4 jalapeno's.  Let's say he receives them next week, and my buddy's Single order doesn't get to him until August.  That means this jalapeno customer will make about 2500$ by the time a Single shows up on the other customer's doorstep.  I would personally feel slighted if I spent more money ~$1300 for a Single vs ~$700 for 4 jalapenos, and made less money.  These are people that spent MORE MONEY to fund a company's project.  These are people who made MORE of a risk.  By the time the Single order comes, the difficulty could easily double.  And the reason it doubled?  Because 20 TERAHASH has been added to the network due to all of these jalapenos, not including Asic Miner, Avalon chips, and maybe even BFL chips coming to the market. 

So seriously?  You cannot see that?  Anyone who says people shouldn't be disappointed by this arrangement is just trolling for trolling sakes.  Both camps have legitimate complaints and people who cannot come to grips with that are living in fantasy land.

If you want to be a "BitcoinTalk Forum Troll Avenger" you have to put in the work and not be selective.

How bout some ordered washing pans and shovels while some ordered orbital planetary deep core mining laser stations and they happened to be able to deliver washing pans and shovels first?..

[Photon939]

Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.

[Bitcoinorama]

This is a non-thread. The Jalepneo is the only thing they've designed that works currently...

[wrenchmonkey]

blah blah blah

I TOTALLY get it now.  You have late April Jalapeno orders.  So obviously you would rather see all the jalapenos get fulfilled before the other devices.  Yeah, your opinion is not biased at ALL. 

No, it would be in my best interest to have ALL orders held until they can all be delivered at the same time, like some people apparently want. I don't expect that I'll see my Jalpeno until WELL after the other hardware is completed and rolled out. But it seems pretty obvious that when 90% of the pre-orders are Jalpenos, and Jalpenos were the simplest hardware to design and complete, that you'd be seeing lots of Jalpenos rolling out before all the big guns. This isn't rocket science.

Jalpeno buyers aren't "being rewarded at the expense of LS/S/MR orders" as the OP asserts.

[KSV]

Yeah, I was actually just thinking the same thing.  I actually upgraded my two jalapeno orders to a little single, and people past my order date are now getting their jalapenos.  I don't really care how, I just want my 30gh of asic, I'll gladly take 6 jalapenos to get to that.

exactly my thought, i dont care how - just get me it!

[hexed]

Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.

Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...

God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.

This is a pretty ignorant comment..  The jump really has nothing to do with the current ~30 jalapenos in the wild.  You also think a 21-30 million difficulty will make that many people question the refund?  

I am currently mining on a couple of video cards in my house that equal about 1.3GH/s.  I can still make 125$ a month and that is including the 25$ or so that I use in energy.  

I'm more of a practical thinker when it comes to ROI.  If the difficulty triples buy the time I get my devices (about 40GH/s of equipment) I will still be getting ~830$ a month @ 95 million difficulty.  That is pretty much paying for all of my initial investment. (probably 5 week ROI).  In the investment world, an ROI of 5 weeks is ridiculous.  Even if it takes 3-4 months to hit my ROI, I would be pleased with that.  My video cards organically funded my initial investment though so technically anything I make is already gravy.

..don't get me wrong.. I would LOVE to receive my stuff asap so I can get in on this "under 50 million" difficulty.  I personally think Butterfly labs WILL ship my stuff. It's not the how, who, and what.. it's the WHEN that determines if I make a couple of grand.. or make 10-20 grand.  No matter how much Butterfly labs messes up and shows its mismanagement, I still think they have every intention of fulfilling their orders and staying in the business for the long haul.  That's about all I can say right now though.