BFL rewarding Jalapeno orders at the expense of LS/S/MR orders

[Bitsaurus]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't BFL massively rewarding purchasers of Bitforce 5 (previously Jalapenos) at the expense of people who have Little Single/Single/Minirigs ordered.

-Consider that some early Bitforce 5 recipients who may have orders placed after LS/S/MR orders have been mining for up to a month now
-Consider that BFL is now allowing optional upgrading from 5GH to 7GH for the Bitforce 5 - 2GH/s for $100 or so which is much less than the same power from ASICMiner.  LS/S/MR have not been given the option to buy any additional power.
-Bitforce 5/7 early recipients may possibly see a return of their initial BTC payment if they ordered in the first week. LS/S/MR owners with equally early orders will have decreasing chance for that return as each day passes.

I'm surprised that more LS/S/MR owners aren't protesting this one sided bonus for people who happened to order the "right" item.

July Bitforce 5 orders are now shipping (unknown if shipping with 7GH upgrade option as yet) and still not a single LS/S/MR owner from 6/23/12 has received a working unit.

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[echris1]

Yeah, I was actually just thinking the same thing.  I actually upgraded my two jalapeno orders to a little single, and people past my order date are now getting their jalapenos.  I don't really care how, I just want my 30gh of asic, I'll gladly take 6 jalapenos to get to that.

[Bitsaurus]

Well at the very least they should let these "disadvantaged" users be able to add a little more umph to their order.  I'm not advocating letting a Single owner be able to double his/her order,but maybe allow them to tack on a 7GH unit to their 50/60GH unit.

It was mentioned many times by LS/S/MR owners that BFL could offer a free Bitforce 5 for their delay but I doubt BFL customers will ever see anything free.

At the least they should be given the opportunity to supplement their hashrate like the Jalapeno people are doing.

[Bicknellski]

Do they have LS/S and MR's?

Not like they have shipped them since they don't have any working right?

[wrenchmonkey]

I don't understand what you're asking for, I guess. The LS/S/MR aren't available to ship. They're still working on those. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be shipping any product out, just because they can't ship everything?

I get that it sucks that the other models aren't ready, but there are WAAAAY more Jalapeno orders than there are of anything else, so it just makes sense to start filling the queue that they're able to fill, while they work toward completing the other products in their line. It's a shitty situation, but what justification is there for punishing the bulk of their customers who ordered Jalapenos?

This sounds an awful lot like a conversation I heard between one of my friends and his daughter recently:

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

[hexed]

blah blah blah..

and..

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

This is really a bad analogy.  I hate it when people aren't good at analogies but think they are.

This isn't like someone getting their order for some retail product, and another person getting a different retail product (lets say two different next gen Apple Ipads), and one of them breaks for 1 customer therefore they purposefully send out an update that damages the other customer's product.  That would be a fitting real world application of your example and no, that would make absolutely no sense.

Besides being a person who consistently defends BFL no matter WHAT they do, you also fail to see the whole picture of things and let your trolling cloud your better judgment.  (yeah yeah.. we know.. your excuse is that you like to troll trolls, but you don't troll ALL trolls, you just troll the people who troll BFL threads.  Your excuse is ridiculous at this point until we see you troll the people who also troll BFL haters.) 

The big picture here is that the longer it takes to receive, there are two factors at work.  The longer it takes for one customer to make a better profit or ROI AND as more people receive asic devices, the more the difficulty goes up which means they make even less the longer it takes.

Ex.  Say for instance, they start up some serious production of Jalapenos.  Let's say within 1 month they are able to assemble and ship out 2000 jalapenos from orders.  Let's also say for this theoretical example, that it takes them 2 more months to start sending out Little Singles, Singles, and Mini-rigs.  That means there are 4000 jalapeno's out in the wild by the time these other devices are even shipped.  Let's also say that some of these jalapeno orders were made in January 2013 because they(BFL) are knocking out their queue.  That means people who ordered 6 months earlier, for devices that are worth 10 times the price, and 10 times the performance, are watching $2,413,904 a MONTH (current difficulty) being made by these 4000 jalapenos (even averaged 5GH/s to be a conservative hash rate) and they still have not received their device. 

Lets get even more granular.  I have August orders, but I have a buddy with a July order of 1 single @ 60GH/s.  Let's also say someone else has a July order for 4 jalapeno's.  Let's say he receives them next week, and my buddy's Single order doesn't get to him until August.  That means this jalapeno customer will make about 2500$ by the time a Single shows up on the other customer's doorstep.  I would personally feel slighted if I spent more money ~$1300 for a Single vs ~$700 for 4 jalapenos, and made less money.  These are people that spent MORE MONEY to fund a company's project.  These are people who made MORE of a risk.  By the time the Single order comes, the difficulty could easily double.  And the reason it doubled?  Because 20 TERAHASH has been added to the network due to all of these jalapenos, not including Asic Miner, Avalon chips, and maybe even BFL chips coming to the market. 

So seriously?  You cannot see that?  Anyone who says people shouldn't be disappointed by this arrangement is just trolling for trolling sakes.  Both camps have legitimate complaints and people who cannot come to grips with that are living in fantasy land.

If you want to be a "BitcoinTalk Forum Troll Avenger" you have to put in the work and not be selective.

[Tehfiend]

I don't understand what you're asking for, I guess. The LS/S/MR aren't available to ship. They're still working on those. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be shipping any product out, just because they can't ship everything?

Good ol wrechmonkey... Did you even read his post? No he's not suggesting that so your cute story doesn't apply.

Well at the very least they should let these "disadvantaged" users be able to add a little more umph to their order.  I'm not advocating letting a Single owner be able to double his/her order,but maybe allow them to tack on a 7GH unit to their 50/60GH unit.

[hexed]

blah blah blah

I TOTALLY get it now.  You have late April Jalapeno orders.  So obviously you would rather see all the jalapenos get fulfilled before the other devices.  Yeah, your opinion is not biased at ALL. 

[DPoS]

the mentality that BFL customers are made to cultivate is past amway levels...

must be shills from that company posting this crap to the feeble minds that remain


I guess in the schister handbook, it is well known that a certain group of people will always be grabbed in these nets

[PuertoLibre]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't BFL massively rewarding purchasers of Bitforce 5 (previously Jalapenos) at the expense of people who have Little Single/Single/Minirigs ordered.

-Consider that some early Bitforce 5 recipients who may have orders placed after LS/S/MR orders have been mining for up to a month now
-Consider that BFL is now allowing optional upgrading from 5GH to 7GH for the Bitforce 5 - 2GH/s for $100 or so which is much less than the same power from ASICMiner.  LS/S/MR have not been given the option to buy any additional power.
-Bitforce 5/7 early recipients may possibly see a return of their initial BTC payment if they ordered in the first week. LS/S/MR owners with equally early orders will have decreasing chance for that return as each day passes.

I'm surprised that more LS/S/MR owners aren't protesting this one sided bonus for people who happened to order the "right" item.

July Bitforce 5 orders are now shipping (unknown if shipping with 7GH upgrade option as yet) and still not a single LS/S/MR owner from 6/23/12 has received a working unit.

Probably because they understand that 5Gh/s are about to crap out in terms of profit.

Yielding too little means that a very high refund rate is very likely. So it gets the priority, I would speculate.

[newmars]

From the twitter
"Unofficial BFL News ‏@BFL_News 17h
BFL Forum "Latest News" - Jalapenos shipping en mass now.  LS/S/MR boards done, shipping soon."

http://ow.ly/i/2hdwg  arriving on your doorstep soon?

[mezzomix]

I'm surprised that more LS/S/MR owners aren't protesting this one sided bonus for people who happened to order the "right" item.

I (Single Pre-Order from June 2012) complain everytime BFL pulls another stunt (sell ASICs before Miners are shiped, charity donation into their own pockets). But on the other hand I lost nearly all of my ~ 200 BTC investment and BFL care a shit about complaints.

[PuertoLibre]

Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.

Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...

God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.

[DPoS]

Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.

Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...

God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.

you really think those jally's had any impact compared to the tidal wave from ASICminer the last month?

[Rakessh]

blah blah blah..

and..

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

This is really a bad analogy.  I hate it when people aren't good at analogies but think they are.

This isn't like someone getting their order for some retail product, and another person getting a different retail product (lets say two different next gen Apple Ipads), and one of them breaks for 1 customer therefore they purposefully send out an update that damages the other customer's product.  That would be a fitting real world application of your example and no, that would make absolutely no sense.

Besides being a person who consistently defends BFL no matter WHAT they do, you also fail to see the whole picture of things and let your trolling cloud your better judgment.  (yeah yeah.. we know.. your excuse is that you like to troll trolls, but you don't troll ALL trolls, you just troll the people who troll BFL threads.  Your excuse is ridiculous at this point until we see you troll the people who also troll BFL haters.) 

The big picture here is that the longer it takes to receive, there are two factors at work.  The longer it takes for one customer to make a better profit or ROI AND as more people receive asic devices, the more the difficulty goes up which means they make even less the longer it takes.

Ex.  Say for instance, they start up some serious production of Jalapenos.  Let's say within 1 month they are able to assemble and ship out 2000 jalapenos from orders.  Let's also say for this theoretical example, that it takes them 2 more months to start sending out Little Singles, Singles, and Mini-rigs.  That means there are 4000 jalapeno's out in the wild by the time these other devices are even shipped.  Let's also say that some of these jalapeno orders were made in January 2013 because they(BFL) are knocking out their queue.  That means people who ordered 6 months earlier, for devices that are worth 10 times the price, and 10 times the performance, are watching $2,413,904 a MONTH (current difficulty) being made by these 4000 jalapenos (even averaged 5GH/s to be a conservative hash rate) and they still have not received their device. 

Lets get even more granular.  I have August orders, but I have a buddy with a July order of 1 single @ 60GH/s.  Let's also say someone else has a July order for 4 jalapeno's.  Let's say he receives them next week, and my buddy's Single order doesn't get to him until August.  That means this jalapeno customer will make about 2500$ by the time a Single shows up on the other customer's doorstep.  I would personally feel slighted if I spent more money ~$1300 for a Single vs ~$700 for 4 jalapenos, and made less money.  These are people that spent MORE MONEY to fund a company's project.  These are people who made MORE of a risk.  By the time the Single order comes, the difficulty could easily double.  And the reason it doubled?  Because 20 TERAHASH has been added to the network due to all of these jalapenos, not including Asic Miner, Avalon chips, and maybe even BFL chips coming to the market. 

So seriously?  You cannot see that?  Anyone who says people shouldn't be disappointed by this arrangement is just trolling for trolling sakes.  Both camps have legitimate complaints and people who cannot come to grips with that are living in fantasy land.

If you want to be a "BitcoinTalk Forum Troll Avenger" you have to put in the work and not be selective.

How bout some ordered washing pans and shovels while some ordered orbital planetary deep core mining laser stations and they happened to be able to deliver washing pans and shovels first?..

[Photon939]

Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.

[Bitcoinorama]

This is a non-thread. The Jalepneo is the only thing they've designed that works currently...

[wrenchmonkey]

blah blah blah

I TOTALLY get it now.  You have late April Jalapeno orders.  So obviously you would rather see all the jalapenos get fulfilled before the other devices.  Yeah, your opinion is not biased at ALL. 

No, it would be in my best interest to have ALL orders held until they can all be delivered at the same time, like some people apparently want. I don't expect that I'll see my Jalpeno until WELL after the other hardware is completed and rolled out. But it seems pretty obvious that when 90% of the pre-orders are Jalpenos, and Jalpenos were the simplest hardware to design and complete, that you'd be seeing lots of Jalpenos rolling out before all the big guns. This isn't rocket science.

Jalpeno buyers aren't "being rewarded at the expense of LS/S/MR orders" as the OP asserts.

[KSV]

Yeah, I was actually just thinking the same thing.  I actually upgraded my two jalapeno orders to a little single, and people past my order date are now getting their jalapenos.  I don't really care how, I just want my 30gh of asic, I'll gladly take 6 jalapenos to get to that.

exactly my thought, i dont care how - just get me it!

[hexed]

Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.

Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...

God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.

This is a pretty ignorant comment..  The jump really has nothing to do with the current ~30 jalapenos in the wild.  You also think a 21-30 million difficulty will make that many people question the refund?  

I am currently mining on a couple of video cards in my house that equal about 1.3GH/s.  I can still make 125$ a month and that is including the 25$ or so that I use in energy.  

I'm more of a practical thinker when it comes to ROI.  If the difficulty triples buy the time I get my devices (about 40GH/s of equipment) I will still be getting ~830$ a month @ 95 million difficulty.  That is pretty much paying for all of my initial investment. (probably 5 week ROI).  In the investment world, an ROI of 5 weeks is ridiculous.  Even if it takes 3-4 months to hit my ROI, I would be pleased with that.  My video cards organically funded my initial investment though so technically anything I make is already gravy.

..don't get me wrong.. I would LOVE to receive my stuff asap so I can get in on this "under 50 million" difficulty.  I personally think Butterfly labs WILL ship my stuff. It's not the how, who, and what.. it's the WHEN that determines if I make a couple of grand.. or make 10-20 grand.  No matter how much Butterfly labs messes up and shows its mismanagement, I still think they have every intention of fulfilling their orders and staying in the business for the long haul.  That's about all I can say right now though.

[DPoS]

..don't get me wrong.. I would LOVE to receive my stuff asap so I can get in on this "under 50 million" difficulty.  I personally think Butterfly labs WILL ship my stuff. It's not the how, who, and what.. it's the WHEN that determines if I make a couple of grand.. or make 10-20 grand.  No matter how much Butterfly labs messes up and shows its mismanagement, I still think they have every intention of fulfilling their orders and staying in the business for the long haul.  That's about all I can say right now though.

they love you man...  but for YOUR sake please spread out your bets though

there is a real reason that ASICminer gets the price they ask..  wake up to that fact

[hexed]

..don't get me wrong.. I would LOVE to receive my stuff asap so I can get in on this "under 50 million" difficulty.  I personally think Butterfly labs WILL ship my stuff. It's not the how, who, and what.. it's the WHEN that determines if I make a couple of grand.. or make 10-20 grand.  No matter how much Butterfly labs messes up and shows its mismanagement, I still think they have every intention of fulfilling their orders and staying in the business for the long haul.  That's about all I can say right now though.

they love you man...  but for YOUR sake please spread out your bets though

there is a real reason that ASICminer gets the price they ask..  wake up to that fact

trust me.. if I had the money to buy into anything else at this point I would.  ASICs are super pricey and I've already woken up to that fact.  I can't afford asic miner equipment but they certainly demand the price.  Unfortunately I've put all my eggs in one basket.  IF I receive my product I'm 100% sure I'll make some money off of it (seeing that I have nothing truly invested.. making 10$ would be considered profit to me).   I assume that IF I receive my devices, the difficulty has to hit the 600 million range to be not worth it to me.  That is making ~100-125$ @ 40GH/s and 120$ bitcoins.  Let's not forget that by the time the difficulty is up to 600 million, we may see a significant rise in bitcoin prices.  If I get my device at the 50 million difficulty mark, I will still be making ~850$ a month.  If I save 4 bitcoins a month and after 6 months the difficulty is at 500 million, but bitcoins are 300$ a bitcoin, I will have saved 7200$ in bitcoins and will be making ~$366 a month.  That is only ~1.15 bitcoins a month @ 40GH/s @ 500 million difficulty @ $300 bitcoins.  For me, nothing to scoff at and of course it is purely speculation.  Take it for what it is worth, but we have a lot of variables that determine the profitability of different mining devices.  Hopefully the stars align for most of us (adopters of BFL, asicminer, Avalon, bitcoin horders, etc..)


The only thing that could happen is BFL just picks up and disappears with all of our money.  Time will tell but I'm still leaning on them staying in the business.  If not.. oh well.  Maybe I'll score it big on something else.  If I was a huge investor, or sunk ANY money into this I was not already writing off as lost, I would have a totally different outlook.  Might as well have spent my bitcoins at the bicoin casino if that was the case.   

[hexed]

blah blah blah

I TOTALLY get it now.  You have late April Jalapeno orders.  So obviously you would rather see all the jalapenos get fulfilled before the other devices.  Yeah, your opinion is not biased at ALL. 

No, it would be in my best interest to have ALL orders held until they can all be delivered at the same time, like some people apparently want. I don't expect that I'll see my Jalpeno until WELL after the other hardware is completed and rolled out. But it seems pretty obvious that when 90% of the pre-orders are Jalpenos, and Jalpenos were the simplest hardware to design and complete, that you'd be seeing lots of Jalpenos rolling out before all the big guns. This isn't rocket science.

Jalpeno buyers aren't "being rewarded at the expense of LS/S/MR orders" as the OP asserts.

damn dude.. you really are "out there".  You can't just "say something" and it be fact.  No, if you have a jalapeno order, it would be in YOUR best interest for them to finish their line of jalapeno order shipments. 

Facts:
This means you would get your jalapeno (even being an April order), before ANY single, little single, or minirig orders are fulfilled.  This means that you would be mining on devices before 100's of terahash are in the wild due to BFL shipping out their other products.

But it seems pretty obvious that when 90% of the pre-orders are Jalpenos, and Jalpenos were the simplest hardware to design and complete, that you'd be seeing lots of Jalpenos rolling out before all the big guns. This isn't rocket science.

No, that actually isn't obvious.  Just the opposite on several statements. 

From the beginning they planned on releasing ALL products at the same time.  In fact, if they even ONCE said that they would be shipping out Jalapeno's first, someone like me would have kept my order of 5 jalapenos instead of upgrading my order to 1 little single (when the little single announcement was made).  In fact I didn't want 6 Jalapenos because back then we thought it would require USB power which meant running 6 jalapenos on one USB hub would be a pain.  Now that I know that the Jalapenos not only have their own power brick, but are shipping NOW.. I'd say I would have made different decisions back then. 

Furthermore, provide some sort of proof that 90% of their pre orders are Jalapenos.  Especially after allowing Jalapeno orders to be upgraded to the $699 little singles, 90% is not a correct number.  Also, just because Jalapenos are easier to make, they aren't THAT much easier.  Also, why are you listing only those two "facts" as your arguing points.  You are ignoring the fact that the Jalapenos are the ONLY ONES EVEN READY TO MAKE.  In the past month they have not HAD the boards for the LS, Singles, and minirigs.  You can't assemble and ship something that don't have parts ready.  This isn't rocket science.

[Bitsaurus]

I don't understand what you're asking for, I guess. The LS/S/MR aren't available to ship. They're still working on those. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be shipping any product out, just because they can't ship everything?

I get that it sucks that the other models aren't ready, but there are WAAAAY more Jalapeno orders than there are of anything else, so it just makes sense to start filling the queue that they're able to fill, while they work toward completing the other products in their line. It's a shitty situation, but what justification is there for punishing the bulk of their customers who ordered Jalapenos?

This sounds an awful lot like a conversation I heard between one of my friends and his daughter recently:

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

Objection. Lacks foundation, calls for speculation.

Boy you're really living up to your reputation aren't you?

You clearly cannot read with comprehension or you have chosen to respond without reading.  Where did I even state that I thought punitive measures against Jalapeno buyers was a good idea?  Please quote it and bold it.

What BFL is doing is giving an unfair advantage to Jalapeno owners.  Since they have not decided to go with 1/3rd plan, and they have not decided to hold back Jalapeno orders they should implement a different plan that would be fair to the other purchasers.

Jalapeno orders may be numerically larger but by purchase values I would clearly say LS/S/MR people funded BFL for the most part.  Are you going to argue that somebody buying quantity 10k of a 3 cent item at a Walmart store should weigh more heavily that the 8000 other item purchases that might be made on a typical day (hypothetical).

What they may consider if they are not willing to actively put LS/S/MR production as a top priority is converting the other orders to Bitforce 5s

[wrenchmonkey]

I don't understand what you're asking for, I guess. The LS/S/MR aren't available to ship. They're still working on those. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be shipping any product out, just because they can't ship everything?

I get that it sucks that the other models aren't ready, but there are WAAAAY more Jalapeno orders than there are of anything else, so it just makes sense to start filling the queue that they're able to fill, while they work toward completing the other products in their line. It's a shitty situation, but what justification is there for punishing the bulk of their customers who ordered Jalapenos?

This sounds an awful lot like a conversation I heard between one of my friends and his daughter recently:

[In tears] "Dad, *sob* my *sob* balloon *sob* popped."
"I'm sorry that happened, sweetie"
"Yeah, well *sob* Emma's balloon isn't *sob* popped, and it's *sob* not fair!"
"What do you think would be fair?"
"We *sniffle* need to pop HER balloon too!" 

Objection. Lacks foundation, calls for speculation.

Boy you're really living up to your reputation aren't you?

You clearly cannot read with comprehension or you have chosen to respond without reading.  Where did I even state that I thought punitive measures against Jalapeno buyers was a good idea?  Please quote it and bold it.

What BFL is doing is giving an unfair advantage to Jalapeno owners.  Since they have not decided to go with 1/3rd plan, and they have not decided to hold back Jalapeno orders they should implement a different plan that would be fair to the other purchasers.

Jalapeno orders may be numerically larger but by purchase values I would clearly say LS/S/MR people funded BFL for the most part.  Are you going to argue that somebody buying quantity 10k of a 3 cent item at a Walmart store should weigh more heavily that the 8000 other item purchases that might be made on a typical day (hypothetical).

You said that Jalpeno buyers were "being rewarded at the expense of others" by the mere fact that their orders are being shipped. I was saying I don't get WHAT you're suggesting by that claim. I can only assume that you mean that either they shouldn't be shipping Jalpeno orders, or they should magically change the circumstances, and WILL the other hardware into completion. Which is it? The latter isn't an option, so I presumed the former. Mistake on my part?

Assembly is a completely different beast than development and testing. I'm sure they don't have their design team on the assembly line, so it's silly to assume that the shipment of jalpeno orders is in any way taking away from the development of the other hardware. The problem is that they're still developing the other stuff. Not that they're sitting on them in order to prioritize Jalpenos.

If wal-mart has one hundred 27" inch TVs, but they're out of stock on the 40", 55" and 70" TVs, does that mean they should halt sales of the 27" TVs, so that the 27" customers aren't being "Rewarded at the expense of the 40", 55" and 70", customers"?

What they may consider if they are not willing to actively put LS/S/MR production as a top priority is converting the other orders to Bitforce 5s

I can see your point here.

I don't know that it would actually result in you getting your hashing power any faster, considering that it would just extend the queue significantly. It's a lot more work to assemble 500 Jalpenos than 50 Singles. So depending on how close they are to completing the development of the other hardware, customers might be shooting themselves in the foot if they demand that BFL ship piles and piles of Jalpenos, in place of higher-density hardware. Neither of us knows how close they are go finishing dev on other products though, so it's impossible to figure out what would be ideal.

Like I said, I'm pretty confident most of you guys will get your high-density hardware WELL before I ever get my cute little Jalpeno desk toy, so I really don't have much of a dog in this fight. I've put most of my money on different horses. The Jalpeno is really just a novelty to me. I don't expect it to make me rich.

[Bicknellski]

wrenchmonkey

This user is currently ignored.

Problem solved.

So again the point here really is those waiting on the LS/S/MR are not being put out by the Jala being shipped. They don't have the LS/S or MR built.

[DPoS]

..don't get me wrong.. I would LOVE to receive my stuff asap so I can get in on this "under 50 million" difficulty.  I personally think Butterfly labs WILL ship my stuff. It's not the how, who, and what.. it's the WHEN that determines if I make a couple of grand.. or make 10-20 grand.  No matter how much Butterfly labs messes up and shows its mismanagement, I still think they have every intention of fulfilling their orders and staying in the business for the long haul.  That's about all I can say right now though.

they love you man...  but for YOUR sake please spread out your bets though

there is a real reason that ASICminer gets the price they ask..  wake up to that fact

trust me.. if I had the money to buy into anything else at this point I would.  ASICs are super pricey and I've already woken up to that fact.  I can't afford asic miner equipment but they certainly demand the price.  Unfortunately I've put all my eggs in one basket.  IF I receive my product I'm 100% sure I'll make some money off of it (seeing that I have nothing truly invested.. making 10$ would be considered profit to me).   I assume that IF I receive my devices, the difficulty has to hit the 600 million range to be not worth it to me.  That is making ~100-125$ @ 40GH/s and 120$ bitcoins.  Let's not forget that by the time the difficulty is up to 600 million, we may see a significant rise in bitcoin prices.  If I get my device at the 50 million difficulty mark, I will still be making ~850$ a month.  If I save 4 bitcoins a month and after 6 months the difficulty is at 500 million, but bitcoins are 300$ a bitcoin, I will have saved 7200$ in bitcoins and will be making ~$366 a month.  That is only ~1.15 bitcoins a month @ 40GH/s @ 500 million difficulty @ $300 bitcoins.  For me, nothing to scoff at and of course it is purely speculation.  Take it for what it is worth, but we have a lot of variables that determine the profitability of different mining devices.  Hopefully the stars align for most of us (adopters of BFL, asicminer, Avalon, bitcoin horders, etc..)


The only thing that could happen is BFL just picks up and disappears with all of our money.  Time will tell but I'm still leaning on them staying in the business.  If not.. oh well.  Maybe I'll score it big on something else.  If I was a huge investor, or sunk ANY money into this I was not already writing off as lost, I would have a totally different outlook.  Might as well have spent my bitcoins at the bicoin casino if that was the case.   

you got it right that the only way to get ahead is to take an early risk on one of these ASIC horses since once it can be bought off the shelf the ROI is pretty long (USBees, etc)  & DIY projects have their own set of stars to be aligned


Maybe you can get BFL to ship you a bunch of Jallys

The price of bitcoins is a whole other beast..  if there isn't much of an economy it will start to tank as every ASIC miner sells quickly to get back their ROI..  then after that swoon, the price will grow again next year..  BUT if there is more and more ways for merchants to spend bitcoins on things they need without converting, then you get that side to grow..and offer more things in bitcoin.. then miners won't rush to convert and will just use bitcoins

perhaps to make it rich now, get into other areas of the bitcoin ecosystem?   Mining is getting to be a crowded trade... but I have my hat in the kncminer for a saturn or two since I am a 1-500 pre-reg.   That will really increase my current 2Gh mining for sure

[Paladin69]

They are still shipping 1st month jalapeno orders.  If they start shipping 2nd and 3rd month jalapeno's before 1st month MR's & Singles, then it is time to start getting ticked.

[therustytrombone]

You guys really don't see what's going on here?  Greed is seriously blinding. 

[hexed]

You guys really don't see what's going on here?  Greed is seriously blinding. 

Please tell us what is going on here oh mighty rustytrombone

..but who are you to label someone or something greed or greedy?  It is a basic request for a company to honor their original plans.  For someone like me that has a little single and a couple of Jalapenos on order, I could have kept a big order of all Jalapenos if I would have known they were shipping sooner and had their own power bricks now.  IF they get to me a month earlier I could have a couple of thousand more than I would have had.  It's pretty simple, and certainly not greed.  If you think it is greed that means this amount of money is excess for you and beyond what you need to live comfortably.  For me, this money is about paying for my first child (due in September).. about being able to pay off debt from Dr bills after being diagnosed with MS last year (Specialist visits, hospital stays, MRI after MRI, infusions, etc., from bills for a dead dog... for bills when the sewage backed up into my home from a busted pipe under my lawn.. from the engine replacement that cost me about 5K.  Having excess?  Not quite.  Try "getting back to having a savings account where I was last year at this time". 

But to be honest, these people who are not getting their first week Singles are seeing hundreds of Jalapenos ready to be shipped out in a picture today.  That just doesn't sit well with most people who made a "investment" that was delayed MULTIPLE times.  Everyone is on edge.  And this is not like a regular product.  I've said this time after time, but the more hashing power on the network and the more time passes, the less people make.  So for people who ordered say 3 singles (180 GH/s).. might be ok with receiving 90 jalapenos.  Anything to get that hashing power, and if they got it one month early, it could mean the difference of 20K just this month alone.  That's no chump change, and for a person that made a ~$4000 high risk investment, would be nice if they received their shipments in the same order as everyone who ordered.

As Paladin69 said though.. they have only shipped out first month orders.  I think the complaining is going to get worse, and more justified if several months of preorders are going out for Jalapenos and LS, SC orders are still not shipping.  I've said it before and will say it again, only time will tell.  I hope it is kind for all of us.

[DPoS]

you might want to grab a refund and go buy a kncminer Saturn

175 Gh for $3800

[peterepeat]

Personally, I have an interest in getting deliveries for Jalapenos, SC Singles and Batch 3 Avalon.
I feel like I have gone through the "5 stages of pre order"
1. Denial (Im sure they are on track)
2. Anger. (A 2 month delay - NO WAY!  )
3. Bargaining ( I'll add a few more product orders. Maybe add 2GH, Maybe add Express Shipping)
4. Depression. No updates from Avalon. Hello?
5. Acceptance. BTC are gone. If I get a knock on the door from the postman, who knows?

I dont really want to start the cycle again with KNC, but all the best to them.

[PuertoLibre]

Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.

At 1.9 Billion, what is your profitability index?

[PuertoLibre]

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3055-bfl-breaking-paypals-user-agreement.html

Checkout the response by Josh.

It appears that BFL may have deleted a thread that read "Tick Tock...." relating to the large difficulty rise in the last few hours. This was with only a hundred (or two) Jallys coming online.

[PuertoLibre]

Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.

At 1.9 Billion, what is your profitability index?

By the way, I checked your claim, at 5Gh/s you are only making...15cents per day @ 1.9 Billion difficulty.

Obviously...I call BS.

That is not even including the PC that runs the hardware. You may need to redo your calculations.

http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/

[Cluster2k]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers. 

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

[Xian01]

you might want to grab a refund and go buy a kncminer Saturn

175 Gh for $3800

 What is community consensus on those ? Are they legit ? Have not followed the entire thread for lack of time Very attractive @ $3.8k for 175GH/s if they can deliver.

[wrenchmonkey]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers. 

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense! 

[GigaWave]

Difficulty jumped from 12 million to 15 million just today. The largest jump yet. And this is only with a tiny fraction of Jalepeno's going online... The next difficulty jump is estimated at 21 to 30 million.

Now pre-order customer are going to run their numbers and a lot of decisions are going to be made very soon...

God help BFL. The refund window is about to get mobbed.

This is a pretty ignorant comment..  The jump really has nothing to do with the current ~30 jalapenos in the wild.

Im sorry, I stopped reading at that IGNORANT comment as you obviously do not know what you are talking about. FYI, for the people that need it spelled out. I'm referring to black bold text.

[GigaWave]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers.  

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense!  

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

[wrenchmonkey]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers.  

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense!  

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

[jspielberg]

I think the point is that they should be asking LS/S/MR if they would take 5GHs miners as an alternative.  I don't think a single person who ordered an LS/S/MR would have expected that all they wouldn't all be produced at the same time.

My guess is that they would get pretty good uptake and probably even upsells of 7GHs (if offered).

I am strangely optimistic that Metabank will be able to produce their miner as they only have to worry about a single configuration that goes like stink.

[GigaWave]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers. 

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense! 

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

I'll run with your analogy eve though it's flawed.

I'm not saying stop shipping. I'm saying when the back ordered items become available. Someone that ordered the same item that bubba ordered 2 months ago should not be shipped their order till bubba and everyone else between bubba and dingdons orders is shipped.

Love the comparison between a novelty item, and something that 99% of people purchased as a investment. Have anymore apples you want to compare to oranges?(BTW, mostly rhetorical as it's close to the end of the week and it's unlikely I'll have time to piss away on nonsense) ...Shit that's even a horrible comparison.

[Bicknellski]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers.  

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense!  

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

IF they actually had crap to sell on the shelf? That would be more than fair... that be N O R M A L.

[wrenchmonkey]

I predicted this situation last year, where BFL customers who are still waiting and looking at others receiving their orders are going to turn on the early receivers and declare it's not fair.  This was always predictable.  BFL was not and cannot be in a position to ship everyone's orders at once.  So the 5Gh units are ready first.  Well, so be it.  Ship what's ready instead of annoying an even larger pool of customers. 

Imagine if BFL declared they're delaying shipment of all 5Gh units a few months so that all product lines can be ready at the same time.  There would be a riot.

Look at that! Somebody with some common sense! 

What delusional world do some one you people live in. You pay for your crap first, you should get you crap first. It shouldn't be handled any other way. You can't make it any fairer.

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

I'll run with your analogy eve though it's flawed.

I'm not saying stop shipping. I'm saying when the back ordered items become available. Someone that ordered the same item that bubba ordered 2 months ago should not be shipped their order till bubba and everyone else between bubba and dingdons orders is shipped.

Love the comparison between a novelty item, and something that 99% of people purchased as a investment. Have anymore apples you want to compare to oranges?(BTW, mostly rhetorical as it's close to the end of the week and it's unlikely I'll have time to piss away on nonsense) ...Shit that's even a horrible comparison.

Pick whatever item you want then. Call the Jalpeno the "singing fish" if Amazon only has singing fish in stock, does that mean they can't ship singing fish until they get some other, higher value, product that is backordered back in stock?

The point is, they don't have your hardware in stock. I agree that if they were in stock, they should ship them. But they're not in stock, so it's a moot issue.

The minute the higher-density options become available, they should definitely take precedence over later orders for other products, but in the mean time, reality is here, and it says that the higher density options aren't available yet, so they're only shipping what's available.

This isn't "taking advantage" of anybody. It's dealing with the reality that development is only complete on the least complex product that they have in their lineup. They'd be stupid to ignore orders that they have the capability of fulfilling TODAY.

[bigdude]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

[relm9]

I'm not a fan of BFL but from the way I see it, there was no promise of ROI when you ordered these parts (unless I'm mistaken and BFL did promise this). BFL is only obligated to send you the product you purchased. As long as they aren't adding NEW products into the mix and shipping them before the existing ones I fail to see the issue.

Plus, when it comes to tech there is usually a slow rollout of the entire product line, rarely are all parts available at once (see graphics cards).

Anyone upset about this really should have hedged their bets and ordered different models from BFL's product line just in case.

BFL is doing the only thing that makes sense here. Yeah, it's not an ideal situation but 1) they can't just sit on the Jalapeno units, and 2) I highly doubt they have enough Jalapeno on hand to allow bigger orders to convert. How would that even be done fairly?

[wrenchmonkey]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

I don't think anybody is saying that the current situation is ideal. It totally sucks that you are having to wait on your equipment. I feel for you. I really do. But your equipment just isn't physically available yet. They can't ship something they don't have, and it would be unfair to sit on hardware that they do have ready to ship.

I hope that they get the development of the other products wrapped up and shipping shortly, but you're not an "investor" and you're not being "screwed" by the fact that BFL is shipping everything that they're currently capable of shipping.

If they were sitting on available hardware, you can bet your ass that there would be people pitching a fit about that as well. BFL really can't win at this point, because there's always gonna be some group that is going to hate the way they do things. I, of course, realize that they've made their own bed here, with multiple missed release dates, but it is what it is. They can only move forward from the point they're currently at. Unfortunately, no changing what's already happened.

Their best bet is to ship as much as they're capable of shipping, and to develop their other products as quickly as they can and get them to their CUSTOMERS (they're not investors) as quickly as possible.

[PuertoLibre]

I'm not a fan of BFL but from the way I see it, there was no promise of ROI when you ordered these parts (unless I'm mistaken and BFL did promise this). BFL is only obligated to send you the product you purchased. As long as they aren't adding NEW products into the mix and shipping them before the existing ones I fail to see the issue.

There was, It was one of Josh's main selling points for their devices. He often commented on how the devices were profitable at different ranges of difficulty and *were* power efficient.

Even up until recently he still talks about it. Both in Dollars and in BTC. So no matter how you shake it, there was several discussions on profitability.

To pretend there was not is to be misinformed.

[Askit2]

I'm not a fan of BFL but from the way I see it, there was no promise of ROI when you ordered these parts (unless I'm mistaken and BFL did promise this). BFL is only obligated to send you the product you purchased. As long as they aren't adding NEW products into the mix and shipping them before the existing ones I fail to see the issue.

There was, It was one of Josh's main selling points for their devices. He often commented on how the devices were profitable at different ranges of difficulty and *were* power efficient.

Even up until recently he still talks about it. Both in Dollars and in BTC. So no matter how you shake it, there was several discussions on profitability.

To pretend there was not is to be misinformed.

If you think back carefully to the pricing and the implication that the initial customers would be profitable and BFL would do its best to make sure of it consider this. BFL priced the initial units at 50% of the price of new units. People paid initially 50% of the price of current units. This doesn't truly guarantee that the initial units will be profitable but it does point towards it being expensive to make them unprofitable. By buying early (ignoring the mistakes and missed deadlines and only comparing to BFL units because BFL can't control anyone else) BFL setup a situation where early adopters would be rewarded with cheaper hardware and the earliest shipping they have been able to provide.

I'm not saying that the higher density people aren't losing some potential profits. They are. But they also have a greater hash density per $ paid upfront as well and although the product isn't available for mass shipment yet when it is there should be a large advantage for the higher density people. Of course it could be a while to ship out the now hotter, higher powered units to the people that paid for them. I am a little amazed that people are shocked that the more complex units are taking longer to get working acceptably.

[PuertoLibre]

@ askit

There are so many false threads in your post that I don't even know where to begin. Have you been reading for the last few months?

[Tehfiend]

Just an observation, my jalapeño will be profitable until difficulty > 2 billion, profit window will be open for a while yet.

It's not that simple. Profitability depends on the difficulty and exchange rate during the lifespan of a miner so it's very hard to accurately predict. For example if the exchange rate holds at $120/BTC and difficulty increases an average of 15% every 2 weeks, then you would need to receive your jalapeño before difficulty is over 100 million or so to break even.

[hexed]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

I don't think anybody is saying that the current situation is ideal. It totally sucks that you are having to wait on your equipment. I feel for you. I really do. But your equipment just isn't physically available yet. They can't ship something they don't have, and it would be unfair to sit on hardware that they do have ready to ship.

I hope that they get the development of the other products wrapped up and shipping shortly, but you're not an "investor" and you're not being "screwed" by the fact that BFL is shipping everything that they're currently capable of shipping.

If they were sitting on available hardware, you can bet your ass that there would be people pitching a fit about that as well. BFL really can't win at this point, because there's always gonna be some group that is going to hate the way they do things. I, of course, realize that they've made their own bed here, with multiple missed release dates, but it is what it is. They can only move forward from the point they're currently at. Unfortunately, no changing what's already happened.

Their best bet is to ship as much as they're capable of shipping, and to develop their other products as quickly as they can and get them to their CUSTOMERS (they're not investors) as quickly as possible.

in·vest·ment 

/inˈves(t)mənt/

Noun

1.The action or process of investing money for profit or material result.
2.A thing that is worth buying because it may be profitable or useful in the future.
 

You still have problems comprehending the one fact that these devices are NOTHING like a typical consumer product.  You just don't read or comprehend things well.  These devices ARE an investment because you buy them and they make you money.  Let's put that in perspective so you can understand it.  I'll use the singing fish you love so much.  If I were to go buy a LIMITED EDITION.. only 200 made.. singing fish (let's call him by his name.. Billy Bass).. and you held on to it in its packaging hoping and hopefully after some research.. knowing.. that this thing would increase in price due to its rarity.  If you were buying it to then sell at a later date, it would be an investment... for you.  For a company to care who got #1 billy bass or #200 billy bass is of no concern to them though.  In this situation however, if 200 of them are identical, the difference in price, shipping time, and profitability would not be very different from 1 to 200.  In BFL's case, the amount of time that passes clearly determines how much this investment will pay back.  We are talking about a couple thousand for someone like me, and worse, several 10's of thousands for those who invested a couple of grand.  And for those that actually put in at the beginning, 1K, 2K, 3K, 10K.. those people basically "financially backed" this company when they needed money the most.  You would think with the high risk they had to endure, and the longest wait time (something a April 2013 customer would not understand), that the people who put in first would get the most back on their investment.  If they don't ship their big chip items soon, these jalapenos in the wild are going to seriously affect how much their other clients make.  Once again let me reiterate that these clients are the ones from the beginning.  These are the ones that put some serious money into a company's dream at the time.  If they were April orders, then of course they wouldn't care as much when shipments of one type are going out.  April orders are going to have to wait for a WHILE to get their product.  A person who ordered in June/July could have been receiving their product next week if they had all the working parts in.

And yeah, BFL cannot win right now.. you just said it.  So might as well do the "right" thing over the one that makes them money faster.  Lets be honest... as 100's of people open their Jalapenos and put their reviews up on forums, or videos on youtube, people are going to be putting massive amount back into ordering Butterfly labs.. even if they don't deliver Singles or Mini rigs by then. 

..I guess there is always the possibility that they are not doing well financially.  So many people have said but that is all speculation.  But IF they are not doing well.. I would much rather them get 1000's of jalapenos out if the alternative was them shutting down the doors.

If I had the opportunity I would take 8 Jalapenos for my 40GH/s ordered if it meant I could get my order this month vs next month, or even further out. Some people with 250+GH/s orders.. they would have to manage 50+ Jalapeno devices.  Even though people want their GH asap, I doubt the big orders would put up with having to manage that many devices.

[k9quaint]

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

Customers require a product. BFL did not have them (and is still trying to develop all but one).
The people who put money into BFL were investors just like a kickstarter project. Their money was used to design and prototype the products.
The investors didn't get equity, they only got promises.

[Transisto]

A long time ago BFL decided we would not get what we ordered but instead we'd get an HASHRATE equivalent.

I don't care if they have to ship 300 Jalapenos to match the hashrate of a minirig.
That's the only way for it to be fair.

This or mine with the 300 Jalapeno on behalf of it's owner while the now "1/3" minirigs units are deliverable.

[wrenchmonkey]

disclosure: I am waiting for 3x60gh/s Singles - ordered within first 2 weeks of pre-orders

Initially I wasn't concerned with BFL shipping the jally's - I mean even 200x5gh/s is only a minimal increase in the the network.

But since then, BFL have started shipping a crap load and covering almost all of the first 2 weeks of orders of jala's ... that is a LOT.

In the meantime, the big investors, and I'm talking mini-rigs here, not even singles, the ones who paid the big $ are the ones getting well and truly screwed.

BFL are just so happy to be delivering SOMETHING, and have something to tell customers, they are forgetting the big investors ... and that is plan bad customer service.

Not that BFL cares about customers anyway. BFL know they screwed up, and they know their reputation is in the mud. Why would they care?

THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?

I don't think anybody is saying that the current situation is ideal. It totally sucks that you are having to wait on your equipment. I feel for you. I really do. But your equipment just isn't physically available yet. They can't ship something they don't have, and it would be unfair to sit on hardware that they do have ready to ship.

I hope that they get the development of the other products wrapped up and shipping shortly, but you're not an "investor" and you're not being "screwed" by the fact that BFL is shipping everything that they're currently capable of shipping.

If they were sitting on available hardware, you can bet your ass that there would be people pitching a fit about that as well. BFL really can't win at this point, because there's always gonna be some group that is going to hate the way they do things. I, of course, realize that they've made their own bed here, with multiple missed release dates, but it is what it is. They can only move forward from the point they're currently at. Unfortunately, no changing what's already happened.

Their best bet is to ship as much as they're capable of shipping, and to develop their other products as quickly as they can and get them to their CUSTOMERS (they're not investors) as quickly as possible.

in·vest·ment 

/inˈves(t)mənt/

Noun

1.The action or process of investing money for profit or material result.
2.A thing that is worth buying because it may be profitable or useful in the future.
 

Everything you buy is an "Investment" that doesn't make you an investor in a company. It makes you an investor in a PRODUCT. Big difference. You're still a customer, unless you have an investment in the company. Learn the difference. It will make this easier for you. If I buy a fleet of Chevy trucks, and use them to make money, I'm not a "Chevy investor", I'm a Chevy customer. Nobody would argue that a fleet of trucks is not an "investment," but nobody would take seriously the assertion that I'm an "investor" in The General Motors Corporation. If I want to be a GM/Chevy investor, I buy STOCK, not their products.

What if I buy a fleet of bulldozers from Caterpillar? Still not an "investor"

You still have problems comprehending the one fact that these devices are NOTHING like a typical consumer product.  You just don't read or comprehend things well.

Bulldozers aren't a "typical consumer product" either. I'm still not a Caterpillar investor.

These devices ARE an investment because you buy them and they make you money.  Let's put that in perspective so you can understand it.  I'll use the singing fish you love so much.  If I were to go buy a LIMITED EDITION.. only 200 made.. singing fish (let's call him by his name.. Billy Bass).. and you held on to it in its packaging hoping and hopefully after some research.. knowing.. that this thing would increase in price due to its rarity.  If you were buying it to then sell at a later date, it would be an investment... for you.  For a company to care who got #1 billy bass or #200 billy bass is of no concern to them though. 

Exactly, they are an investment (just like EVERYTHING you buy). That doesn't make you a BFL investor. In your Billy Bass example you made an investment in the Billy Bass fish. You are not one of Amazon's investors. You're one of Amazon's CUSTOMERS. Get it? If you complained to somebody that you weren't being treated fairly as an "Amazon investor" because they delayed sending you your limited edition singing fish, you'd be laughed out of town.

In this situation however, if 200 of them are identical, the difference in price, shipping time, and profitability would not be very different from 1 to 200.  In BFL's case, the amount of time that passes clearly determines how much this investment will pay back.  We are talking about a couple thousand for someone like me, and worse, several 10's of thousands for those who invested a couple of grand.

That's totally immaterial to the discussion. How much money you could have made if the situation were different is just silly speculation. If they'd already shipped everything, difficulty would have risen sooner as well. Moot point, and again has nothing to do with whether you're one of BFL's "investors". You're a consumer who hoped to get a product earlier in order to make more money with it. Nothing more.

And for those that actually put in at the beginning, 1K, 2K, 3K, 10K.. those people basically "financially backed" this company when they needed money the most.  You would think with the high risk they had to endure, and the longest wait time (something a April 2013 customer would not understand), that the people who put in first would get the most back on their investment.

And they will. Those who receive their orders earlier (earlier orders) will make a higher return than those who order later. There was no gurantee that your profit increase would be exponential, you just presumed it. Everybody who ordered higher density hardware earlier will get their higher density hardware earlier than later higher-density orders.

If they don't ship their big chip items soon, these jalapenos in the wild are going to seriously affect how much their other clients make.  Once again let me reiterate that these clients are the ones from the beginning.  These are the ones that put some serious money into a company's dream at the time.  If they were April orders, then of course they wouldn't care as much when shipments of one type are going out.  April orders are going to have to wait for a WHILE to get their product.  A person who ordered in June/July could have been receiving their product next week if they had all the working parts in.

No, these are people who put money into their own dreams. You (along with the others) saw dollar signs for yourself, not for BFL. You placed a pre-order for your high-density BFL hardware, because you wanted to be first in line to receive high-density BFL hardware. And you still have your same spot in line to receive that product. It sucks that it was delayed, but you're still getting EXACTLY what you paid for. A spot in line for a product, as well as having paid only half what others who order(ed) later than you are paying. I understand that it's frustrating that it's taken so much longer to develop than anticipated, but again, this has nothing to do with the Jalpeno orders or Jalpeno customers. and it doesn't make you a "BFL investor".

I have no way of verifying it, but I do believe that BFL has stated from the beginning that pre-order money has not been touched. If that's true, your case is even weaker. Pre-orders for a product a company is making does not make you a "financial backer" of a company. Financial backers assume fiduciary risk with the company, they don't receive a product in return for their money, and they aren't entitled to refunds.

And yeah, BFL cannot win right now.. you just said it.  So might as well do the "right" thing over the one that makes them money faster.  Lets be honest... as 100's of people open their Jalapenos and put their reviews up on forums, or videos on youtube, people are going to be putting massive amount back into ordering Butterfly labs.. even if they don't deliver Singles or Mini rigs by then.

What's "right" is to fulfill all of their obligations as quickly as possible. They have the ability to currently fill a large portion of their obligations by shipping the orders that they have the hardware on hand to fill. Anything less than that would be foolish, bad for the company, bad for their ACTUAL investors, and bad for their customers (which is the category you fall into). If it had happened to be the hardware that YOU have on order that they'd completed first, and they were sitting on it waiting to complete development on all of their other products before shipping YOURS, you'd be pitching a fit. This whole "me, me, me, me" mentality is so transparent. You only want them to do what directly benefits YOU the most, and anything else will net outcry.

..I guess there is always the possibility that they are not doing well financially.  So many people have said but that is all speculation.  But IF they are not doing well.. I would much rather them get 1000's of jalapenos out if the alternative was them shutting down the doors.

It's a possibility, but not altogether likely. I think that it's in their best interest to get as many of their products out the door as possible, regardless of a current financial situation. If, indeed, they are needing more money, it would seem that filling a large number of orders would entitle them to preorder money for those orders that has apparently been stashed away untouched. Perhaps opening up more capital to invest in the development of YOUR ordered products. More money for BFL quite likely will result in faster completion of the development of their other products that they're still working on.

If I had the opportunity I would take 8 Jalapenos for my 40GH/s ordered if it meant I could get my order this month vs next month, or even further out. Some people with 250+GH/s orders.. they would have to manage 50+ Jalapeno devices.  Even though people want their GH asap, I doubt the big orders would put up with having to manage that many devices.

As I said before, I can understand your point here, but I don't know that it would actually translate into the bulk of high-density people getting their orders any faster, and it's highly likely that it would actually delay it further. This all depends on how close they are to completing development on their other products, but if shipping several thousand more jalpenos pushes everybody in the queue back several more months, vs completing and shipping high-density hardware, en masse, sooner, you might be shooting yourself in the foot by demanding that low volume/high density orders be converted into high volume/low density orders.

[Askit2]

@ askit

There are so many false threads in your post that I don't even know where to begin. Have you been reading for the last few months?

The statements by BFL saying they would have a policy to back the miners that ordered from them was in regards to statements like this one.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg967061#msg967061
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg967182#msg967182
Sadly the mods chopping the thread into pieces left me less then able to locate the exact wording on the profitability statement.

Just some food for thought.
BFL single Preorder 500$
BFL Single Non Preorder 800$
BFL Single Missed Numbers price 600$

I didn't pay attention to the mini rig. It seems like there was a price advantage.

SC units
Preorder early $149 Jalapeno
Working price $274 Jalapeno well 5GHs miner

Now this doesn't prove that BFL intends to help make sure early adopters are profitable. It does show on the two I paid attention to a track record of making sure that early adopters are given lower prices. Yes delays cost money, Yes exchange rates are better now, Yes people are still waiting for nearly year old orders.

Yes I have stated things you think are wrong. Likely you will point out no one paid 800$ for the FPGA single. Missed hashrate cut back the price to keep $/hash in line with their (BFL) post order ratio.

Could all of this be coincidence. Sure. I believe more people would order units at the old prices then at the new prices. I also belive that by making the price higher once the chips worked BFL did in a way lock people into their orders. I choose to see the positive aspect of the whole thing. I choose to see the price increase making later orders less profitable then early orders.

[Morblias]

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

People do not stand to lose money in that situation. This is completely different. Also, BFL said they would ship all product lines at the same time so there would not be unfair advantage. See this post: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3092-latest-news-jalapenos-shipping-en-mass-now-ls-s-mr-boards-done-shipping-soon-5.html#post38652

Well, originally they had planned to ship all of the various products at the same time, and build up a large supply to ship out all at once, and not just let a few trickle out here and there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1109145#msg1109145

Right now, we plan on shipping a mix of all three types of units and yes, 1/3 from each amount we plan on shipping. Each class of mining hardware will be treated on it's own 1/3's balance sheet, not all lumped together. Does that make sense?

As far as what's "early" and what's "late" is going to depend on how many units we ship in the first batch. Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1108821#msg1108821

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty. We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage. I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone. We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam. Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1179157#msg1179157

BFL has said that units of all types will come out at about the same time.

This is correct.

But I understand things don't always work out as planned.  Still, I'm hoping things will work out to be as fair as possible given the circumstances.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1205251#msg1205251

We have absolutely no plans to raise the price after the pre-order phase. I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where we would do that.

TL;DR: read the bold part.

[wrenchmonkey]

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

People do not stand to lose money in that situation. This is completely different. Also, BFL said they would ship all product lines at the same time so there would not be unfair advantage. See this post: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3092-latest-news-jalapenos-shipping-en-mass-now-ls-s-mr-boards-done-shipping-soon-5.html#post38652

Well, originally they had planned to ship all of the various products at the same time, and build up a large supply to ship out all at once, and not just let a few trickle out here and there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1109145#msg1109145

Right now, we plan on shipping a mix of all three types of units and yes, 1/3 from each amount we plan on shipping. Each class of mining hardware will be treated on it's own 1/3's balance sheet, not all lumped together. Does that make sense?

As far as what's "early" and what's "late" is going to depend on how many units we ship in the first batch. Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1108821#msg1108821

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty. We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage. I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone. We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam. Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1179157#msg1179157

BFL has said that units of all types will come out at about the same time.

This is correct.

But I understand things don't always work out as planned.  Still, I'm hoping things will work out to be as fair as possible given the circumstances.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1205251#msg1205251

We have absolutely no plans to raise the price after the pre-order phase. I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where we would do that.

TL;DR: read the bold part.

There was a lot that happened that they didn't want to happen. Things were delayed WAY more than they intended. Back during the BFL pre-order days, they were they only game in town, so shipping out ASIC units to a few people would have really skewed the market. Well, nothing went as anticipated, and now there are MANY ASICs out in the wild, already driving difficulty.

Things definitely went badly for BFL's plans, but we're to the point where we're talking about what's best for them to do NOW. No doubt things were handled poorly on their part. Their only chance at this point, to make things right, is to get as much hardware to as many customers as they can. They didn't anticipate requiring twice as many chips on their machines (hence not anticipating a cost increase). They didn't anticipate being delayed to the point where other ASIC developers beat them to market, they didn't anticipate the higher-density solutions giving them so much more trouble in development, they didn't anticipate missing the mark on power consumption, etc, etc. We all agree they did a poor job in planing things. And were way more optimistic about things than they realistically ought to have been.

But the question is what is the best course of action from this point? I think they're taking the best course of action that they can, with how totally off the mark current reality is from their original vision.

[allten]

*Sigh* so once again, if some redneck in Arkansas orders a singing fish off Amazon, and they're currently backordered, does Amazon halt shipping on all orders, until Bubba's singin' fish comes back in stock? You know, so that it's "fair"?

People do not stand to lose money in that situation. This is completely different. Also, BFL said they would ship all product lines at the same time so there would not be unfair advantage. See this post: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3092-latest-news-jalapenos-shipping-en-mass-now-ls-s-mr-boards-done-shipping-soon-5.html#post38652

Well, originally they had planned to ship all of the various products at the same time, and build up a large supply to ship out all at once, and not just let a few trickle out here and there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1109145#msg1109145

Right now, we plan on shipping a mix of all three types of units and yes, 1/3 from each amount we plan on shipping. Each class of mining hardware will be treated on it's own 1/3's balance sheet, not all lumped together. Does that make sense?

As far as what's "early" and what's "late" is going to depend on how many units we ship in the first batch. Like I said, we do not want to ship out just a handful of orders in the first batch and trickle them out. We want to ship a large quantity in the first batch.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1108821#msg1108821

No, what I don't want to happen is that we ship out a handful of units here, a handful of units there, and those units that get sent out first give the first deliverables a huge advantage and pump the difficulty. We want to have all the participants lined up and released at the same time, so no one has a marked advantage. I don't mean we are going to send out minirigs or probably even singles to anyone. We would send out the a Jalapeno to a few individuals that are trusted by the community to evaluate and report back that yes, they in fact do what's claimed and it's not a big scam. Frankly, I am really boggled by the fact that people are seriously complaining that we are trying to be open with the performance of the product and send it to people that have no vested interest in BFL conducting a scam.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1179157#msg1179157

BFL has said that units of all types will come out at about the same time.

This is correct.

But I understand things don't always work out as planned.  Still, I'm hoping things will work out to be as fair as possible given the circumstances.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102040.msg1205251#msg1205251

We have absolutely no plans to raise the price after the pre-order phase. I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where we would do that.

TL;DR: read the bold part.

There was a lot that happened that they didn't want to happen. Things were delayed WAY more than they intended. Back during the BFL pre-order days, they were they only game in town, so shipping out ASIC units to a few people would have really skewed the market. Well, nothing went as anticipated, and now there are MANY ASICs out in the wild, already driving difficulty.

Things definitely went badly for BFL's plans, but we're to the point where we're talking about what's best for them to do NOW. No doubt things were handled poorly on their part. Their only chance at this point, to make things right, is to get as much hardware to as many customers as they can. They didn't anticipate requiring twice as many chips on their machines (hence not anticipating a cost increase). They didn't anticipate being delayed to the point where other ASIC developers beat them to market, they didn't anticipate the higher-density solutions giving them so much more trouble in development, they didn't anticipate missing the mark on power consumption, etc, etc. We all agree they did a poor job in planing things. And were way more optimistic about things than they realistically ought to have been.

But the question is what is the best course of action from this point? I think they're taking the best course of action that they can, with how totally off the mark current reality is from their original vision.

Best course of action? Regarding the OP, it is simple really. Give customers the option to change their orders to jalepenos while maintaining their place in line.

I had ordered several jalapenos but then I was reassured by BFL staff that the bigger stuff was shipping at the same time and they gave an option to Upgrade.
That was several months ago.
Well, now give us an option to downgrade. Seems like a no brainier.

They are probably too stressed out to try to do any thing for their customers other than just shove product out the
door with little regard to the issue in the OP.
The fact they "appear" to still be holding things together and trying to get product to customers is really amazing. I'll give 'em that.

[hexed]

Oh man.. you really do have a comprehension problem don't you.  Once again you don't read the posts you respond to, and your responses are circumnavigating the actual topic.  Let me deconstruct your BS.

Everything you buy is an "Investment" that doesn't make you an investor in a company. It makes you an investor in a PRODUCT. Big difference. You're still a customer, unless you have an investment in the company. Learn the difference. It will make this easier for you. If I buy a fleet of Chevy trucks, and use them to make money, I'm not a "Chevy investor", I'm a Chevy customer. Nobody would argue that a fleet of trucks is not an "investment," but nobody would take seriously the assertion that I'm an "investor" in The General Motors Corporation. If I want to be a GM/Chevy investor, I buy STOCK, not their products.

What if I buy a fleet of bulldozers from Caterpillar? Still not an "investor"

No.. everything you buy is not an investment.  Maybe you need to scroll up to the DEFINITION YOU QUOTED.  If I buy a Apple Ipad, Sony Receiver, banana, I am not investing anything.  I am consuming. 

Then you go on to talking about Chevy/GM which is a publically traded company and in true wrenchmonkey fashion, you are comparing apples to oranges. 

Bulldozers aren't a "typical consumer product" either. I'm still not a Caterpillar investor.

Once again, even though it goes through one ear and out the other.. You buying a product is not an investment.  You bought a product to use.  If you use the product to make money for a construction company, that purchase of bulldozers is an investment into YOUR company, not caterpillar.

Exactly, they are an investment (just like EVERYTHING you buy). That doesn't make you a BFL investor. In your Billy Bass example you made an investment in the Billy Bass fish. You are not one of Amazon's investors. You're one of Amazon's CUSTOMERS. Get it? If you complained to somebody that you weren't being treated fairly as an "Amazon investor" because they delayed sending you your limited edition singing fish, you'd be laughed out of town.

No, everything you buy is not an investment.. once again.  Just saying it over and over again so maybe you get it one day.  I also said nothing about Amazon, don't know where that came from.  You also failed to read once again, the billy bass comment was regarding an investment of a rare item, that can be saved and resold.  As I had mentioned in my comments, it wasn't comparing to BFL, as I had SPECIFICALLY said it was comparing apples to oranges as well.  Guess you didn't READ that part.

That's totally immaterial to the discussion. How much money you could have made if the situation were different is just silly speculation. If they'd already shipped everything, difficulty would have risen sooner as well. Moot point, and again has nothing to do with whether you're one of BFL's "investors". You're a consumer who hoped to get a product earlier in order to make more money with it. Nothing more.

Nope.. it is actually THE subject.  The amount of time it takes for them to ship the other types of devices and how every 2 weeks that goes by the difficulty rises and will do so even more if thousands of Jalapenos are in the market.  I never said my figures WERE fact.. I even said "this is speculation" several times in this thread.  But you don't read, and cherry pick comments to try and look bright. 

But the POINT of the speculation is that the sooner they ship the more those people will make.  You have been dodging that point ALL THREAD... until you finally gave up in your quote below

And they will. Those who receive their orders earlier (earlier orders) will make a higher return than those who order later. There was no gurantee that your profit increase would be exponential, you just presumed it. Everybody who ordered higher density hardware earlier will get their higher density hardware earlier than later higher-density orders.

First off.. I'm glad you finally come around to contradicting yourself.. your argument is unraveling.  You also use the word "exponential".  I never said it was exponential.  Do you know what that word means?  I never mentioned that word at all, but you like to twist words so your argument seems valid.  Nice try 

No, these are people who put money into their own dreams. You (along with the others) saw dollar signs for yourself, not for BFL. You placed a pre-order for your high-density BFL hardware, because you wanted to be first in line to receive high-density BFL hardware. And you still have your same spot in line to receive that product. It sucks that it was delayed, but you're still getting EXACTLY what you paid for. A spot in line for a product, as well as having paid only half what others who order(ed) later than you are paying. I understand that it's frustrating that it's taken so much longer to develop than anticipated, but again, this has nothing to do with the Jalpeno orders or Jalpeno customers. and it doesn't make you a "BFL investor".

Actually, it does for a company who has no product.  You have absolutely no argument for the fact that early investors gambled on them even being legit and having a product.  It makes us an investor exactly like kickstarter does.  It's not a typical investor relationship, but is an investment.  Into a company and into our own hopes.

I have no way of verifying it, but I do believe that BFL has stated from the beginning that pre-order money has not been touched. If that's true, your case is even weaker. Pre-orders for a product a company is making does not make you a "financial backer" of a company. Financial backers assume fiduciary risk with the company, they don't receive a product in return for their money, and they aren't entitled to refunds.

Yes, it does.  At the time I ordered, they didn't even have a 3d model or drawing on a napkin of the product.  When you pay in bitcoins, for a product that hasn't been engineered, you run a definite risk of never seeing your money back.  The problem with your comments is everything is black and white for you, but not everything in life is black or white.  This situation is very much in the grey area of investments.

What's "right" is to fulfill all of their obligations as quickly as possible. They have the ability to currently fill a large portion of their obligations by shipping the orders that they have the hardware on hand to fill. Anything less than that would be foolish, bad for the company, bad for their ACTUAL investors, and bad for their customers (which is the category you fall into). If it had happened to be the hardware that YOU have on order that they'd completed first, and they were sitting on it waiting to complete development on all of their other products before shipping YOURS, you'd be pitching a fit. This whole "me, me, me, me" mentality is so transparent. You only want them to do what directly benefits YOU the most, and anything else will net outcry.

In the US, we have a policy called "first in first out" rule.  What you think is "right" and what I think is "right" is purely subjective.  I have jalapenos on order.  If they keep shipping, I will certainly get my jalapenos before SEVERAL people get their SC, and minirigs.  If they keep shipping jalapenos, I will get at least 10GH/s VERY soon.  So no, if they started making the other products, one SC will take up 16 of those chips that could have made 8 separate Jalapenos and I would end up getting my hashing power later.  Nice try attempting to call me out on that but you should actually think before you speak.  If you would have read my several posts in this thread you would have been able to use your brain before you spoke and realize this model would actually be better for me.

It's a possibility, but not altogether likely. I think that it's in their best interest to get as many of their products out the door as possible, regardless of a current financial situation. If, indeed, they are needing more money, it would seem that filling a large number of orders would entitle them to preorder money for those orders that has apparently been stashed away untouched. Perhaps opening up more capital to invest in the development of YOUR ordered products. More money for BFL quite likely will result in faster completion of the development of their other products that they're still working on.

money is not a problem for BFL shipping out faster.  It is about getting the parts faster which means they have to finalize all of the other products AND get a whole lot more chips, boards, and cases in.

[Bicknellski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVx26LlNXA <--- Yifu Guo of Avalon skeptical of Butterfly Labs

[wrenchmonkey]

Oh man.. you really do have a comprehension problem don't you.  Once again you don't read the posts you respond to, and your responses are circumnavigating the actual topic.  Let me deconstruct your BS.

*Yawn* More ad hominem...

Everything you buy is an "Investment" that doesn't make you an investor in a company. It makes you an investor in a PRODUCT. Big difference. You're still a customer, unless you have an investment in the company. Learn the difference. It will make this easier for you. If I buy a fleet of Chevy trucks, and use them to make money, I'm not a "Chevy investor", I'm a Chevy customer. Nobody would argue that a fleet of trucks is not an "investment," but nobody would take seriously the assertion that I'm an "investor" in The General Motors Corporation. If I want to be a GM/Chevy investor, I buy STOCK, not their products.

What if I buy a fleet of bulldozers from Caterpillar? Still not an "investor"

No.. everything you buy is not an investment.  Maybe you need to scroll up to the DEFINITION YOU QUOTED.  If I buy a Apple Ipad, Sony Receiver, banana, I am not investing anything.  I am consuming.  

A banana is an "investment" in your survival, an iPad and sony receiver are "investments" in your own entertainment. When you spend money on those products, your intent is that you gain something from them. You gain a long-term entertainment option. Having a nice home theater can save you money on movie tickets, blah, blah, blah. By THAT standard, everything you purchase can be considered an "investment". Going to the grocery store is even an "investment" of time. If you want to play fast and loose with terms, so be it. But you can't eat your cake and have it still. Investment in goods is still an investment, whether it's BFL mining equipment, or a new car, you're STILL not an "investor" in that company. You're a customer/consumer.

Then you go on to talking about Chevy/GM which is a publically traded company and in true wrenchmonkey fashion, you are comparing apples to oranges.

The point is perfectly valid. The fact that it's publicly traded means that you CAN be an investor. You want an apples-to-apples comparison of your "investment" in a company that's not even traded publicly? You were never offered a share in the company, you're neither a public investor or a private investor in BFL. That's the whole fucking point.

Bulldozers aren't a "typical consumer product" either. I'm still not a Caterpillar investor.

Once again, even though it goes through one ear and out the other.. You buying a product is not an investment.  You bought a product to use.

No shit, you bought the product "to use". Find me a person who buys a bulldozer as a recreational vehicle. They're purchased for making money. Interestingly enough, they're often used IN THE MINING INDUSTRY. You wanted an apples-to-apples comparison? HERE IT FUCKING IS! Mining equipment!

If you use the product to make money for a construction company, that purchase of bulldozers is an investment into YOUR company, not caterpillar.

*DING DING DING DING DING!* I feel like you're SO CLOSE to FINALLY getting it. Bulldozers (and bitcoin mining equipment) are investments in YOUR COMPANY (or unregistered black/grey-market mining business) not Caterpillar or BFL. You're investing in yourself when you buy such equipment, not in the company you're buying from. Mining equipment is mining equipment. Ergo, by your own fucking admission, YOU ARE NOT A BFL INVESTOR any more than a gold miner is a Caterpillar investor, when he buys Caterpillar products for HIS mining ventures. You're both just customers of the respective companies. No more, no less.

Exactly, they are an investment (just like EVERYTHING you buy). That doesn't make you a BFL investor. In your Billy Bass example you made an investment in the Billy Bass fish. You are not one of Amazon's investors. You're one of Amazon's CUSTOMERS. Get it? If you complained to somebody that you weren't being treated fairly as an "Amazon investor" because they delayed sending you your limited edition singing fish, you'd be laughed out of town.

No, everything you buy is not an investment.. once again.  Just saying it over and over again so maybe you get it one day.  I also said nothing about Amazon, don't know where that came from.  You also failed to read once again, the billy bass comment was regarding an investment of a rare item, that can be saved and resold.  As I had mentioned in my comments, it wasn't comparing to BFL, as I had SPECIFICALLY said it was comparing apples to oranges as well.  Guess you didn't READ that part.

To quote Shakespear, "Come, you are a tedious fool". You were playing off a previous example of ordering a singing fish off Amazon. Choose your own vendor from whom you ordered your Billy Bass singing fish, doesn't matter from me. But no matter what vendor you would have ordered your singing fish from, you would NEVER be considered an "investor" in the company you ordered from. You'd be investing in your own personal collection. Hence, YOU ARE NOT AN INVESTOR IN company X, just because you ordered an "investment" product from company X. This is really not rocket science. Fire up that second brain cell, guy.  

That's totally immaterial to the discussion. How much money you could have made if the situation were different is just silly speculation. If they'd already shipped everything, difficulty would have risen sooner as well. Moot point, and again has nothing to do with whether you're one of BFL's "investors". You're a consumer who hoped to get a product earlier in order to make more money with it. Nothing more.

Nope.. it is actually THE subject.  The amount of time it takes for them to ship the other types of devices and how every 2 weeks that goes by the difficulty rises and will do so even more if thousands of Jalapenos are in the market.  I never said my figures WERE fact.. I even said "this is speculation" several times in this thread.  But you don't read, and cherry pick comments to try and look bright.

Says the guy who cherry picks comments... How much money YOU anticipated making has nothing to do with ANYTHING other than your own personal aspirations. It's immaterial to the discussion, and STILL doesn't make you a "BFL Investor". It makes you a BFL CUSTOMER, who invested money into mining equipment of the BFL brand. Just like the gold miner who buys bulldozers.

But Nthe POINT of the speculation is that the sooner they ship the more those people will make.  You have been dodging that point ALL THREAD... until you finally gave up in your quote below

No shit! Everybody wants BFL to ship sooner, so they can make more money for themselves. THAT STILL DOESN'T MAKE YOU A BFL INVESTOR. If there were a lawsuit against "BFL and all their investors", would you consider yourself named in that suit? Would you show up to court to be sued? Nope, because you KNOW you're not a BFL investor. You're just a guy who ordered some cheap mining equipment, hoping it would make you rich.

And they will. Those who receive their orders earlier (earlier orders) will make a higher return than those who order later. There was no gurantee that your profit increase would be exponential, you just presumed it. Everybody who ordered higher density hardware earlier will get their higher density hardware earlier than later higher-density orders.

First off.. I'm glad you finally come around to contradicting yourself.. your argument is unraveling.  You also use the word "exponential".  I never said it was exponential.  Do you know what that word means?  I never mentioned that word at all, but you like to twist words so your argument seems valid.  Nice try  

Speaking of twisting words. What part of my argument is unraveling? You're still not a "BFL Investor". You're right that you didn't say exponential, but that's what many people expect. They expected that in getting their hardware "first", that would translate into MONTHS before most people, and would have given them exponentially more profits, in their own heads.

All you purchased was a spot in line for the shipping order of your product. Even if you ordered 6 months ahead of everybody else, that doesn't guarantee you a 6-month head start on mining. It just gives you a better spot in the queue. If 1 year's worth of orders got shipped in 2 weeks (highly unlikely, so before you nitpick, this is just an example), and you're at the front of the line you only get a 2 weeks of head start on your order. That's all you bought. That's all you paid for. There was no promise of a head start equal to the time your order was in place.

No, these are people who put money into their own dreams. You (along with the others) saw dollar signs for yourself, not for BFL. You placed a pre-order for your high-density BFL hardware, because you wanted to be first in line to receive high-density BFL hardware. And you still have your same spot in line to receive that product. It sucks that it was delayed, but you're still getting EXACTLY what you paid for. A spot in line for a product, as well as having paid only half what others who order(ed) later than you are paying. I understand that it's frustrating that it's taken so much longer to develop than anticipated, but again, this has nothing to do with the Jalpeno orders or Jalpeno customers. and it doesn't make you a "BFL investor".

Actually, it does for a company who has no product.  You have absolutely no argument for the fact that early investors gambled on them even being legit and having a product.  It makes us an investor exactly like kickstarter does.  It's not a typical investor relationship, but is an investment.  Into a company and into our own hopes.

No, it still doesn't. You're still not a BFL investor. Just because YOU were speculating as to whether they had a real product or not, doesn't change BFL's role, or your relationship with them. You're still just a customer who placed a pre-order. Nothing more. It was an investment into yourself, just like gold mining equipment. Remember this quote FROM YOU?

If you use the product to make money for a construction company, that purchase of bulldozers is an investment into YOUR company, not caterpillar.

Yup. Mining equipment is mining equipment. Your bulldozers... er... mining rigs are an investment IN YOUR COMPANY (probably unregistered, but that's irrelevant).

Hoisted on your own petard!

I have no way of verifying it, but I do believe that BFL has stated from the beginning that pre-order money has not been touched. If that's true, your case is even weaker. Pre-orders for a product a company is making does not make you a "financial backer" of a company. Financial backers assume fiduciary risk with the company, they don't receive a product in return for their money, and they aren't entitled to refunds.

Yes, it does.  At the time I ordered, they didn't even have a 3d model or drawing on a napkin of the product.  When you pay in bitcoins, for a product that hasn't been engineered, you run a definite risk of never seeing your money back.  The problem with your comments is everything is black and white for you, but not everything in life is black or white.  This situation is very much in the grey area of investments.

Sending money for any product carries some amount of risk. It STILL doesn't make you a "BFL Investor". There was some risk on your part, in determining whether you'd ever see your product, but (and again, it's still irrelevant) it's not as if BFL was unknown. They were established as an FPGA mining equipment player. And there was never an agreement between you and BFL that your "investment" was speculative. If they'd failed to deliver a product, you'd have been (and felt yourself) entitled to a refund. If you were an investor, you would not have been, because your investment would have been a speculative one. You placed an order for a product, based on faith that they could produce it, with the expectation that if they failed, you'd be entitled to your money back. Pretty much the complete opposite of an investment in the company.

You had no "exposure" (look it up) outside the risk that it might be a scam and they might run off with your money. But you have that same risk ANY TIME you place an internet order.

What's "right" is to fulfill all of their obligations as quickly as possible. They have the ability to currently fill a large portion of their obligations by shipping the orders that they have the hardware on hand to fill. Anything less than that would be foolish, bad for the company, bad for their ACTUAL investors, and bad for their customers (which is the category you fall into). If it had happened to be the hardware that YOU have on order that they'd completed first, and they were sitting on it waiting to complete development on all of their other products before shipping YOURS, you'd be pitching a fit. This whole "me, me, me, me" mentality is so transparent. You only want them to do what directly benefits YOU the most, and anything else will net outcry.

In the US, we have a policy called "first in first out" rule.  What you think is "right" and what I think is "right" is purely subjective.  I have jalapenos on order.  If they keep shipping, I will certainly get my jalapenos before SEVERAL people get their SC, and minirigs.  If they keep shipping jalapenos, I will get at least 10GH/s VERY soon.

There's no evidence that they're violating the concept of FIFO, dude. But again, FIFO doesn't apply to the entirety of their product line. Back to the Amazon example. Amazon is not obligated to hold back later orders for products they have on hand, in order to honor the concept of FIFO, when they have another product out of stock, with an earlier order associated. Customers Little Singles will ship in the order that orders were received for those, when they become available. Singles will ship in the order that they were ordered in, once they're available. When Little Singles and Singles become available, they will be added to the queue in relation to other products and their orders (IE, if BFL has shipped Jalpeno orders up through August, then they'll need to ensure that any further shipments of Jalpeno orders doesn't add to a delay for earlier orders for other products.

So no, if they started making the other products, one SC will take up 16 of those chips that could have made 8 separate Jalapenos and I would end up getting my hashing power later.  Nice try attempting to call me out on that but you should actually think before you speak.  If you would have read my several posts in this thread you would have been able to use your brain before you spoke and realize this model would actually be better for me.

Your argument assumes that chips are the only limiting factor in production. If they start running out of chips then it doesn't matter what products they're going in, things are gonna be delayed for a while. But unless you have evidence that they intend to run out of chips by creating a huge surplus of unshipped Jalpenos, prior to completing development of any other rigs, your point is moot. Now that the chips are in large-scale production, there's no reason to assume that chips are the bottleneck at this point. 16 chips is 16 chips, regardless of what platform they're installed in. So how your small mind gets the idea that it's easier to produce and ship 50 Jalpenos than it is to ship the same hashing power in one or two units, is baffling. There's FAR more labor, time, and material expense in making a lot of low-density units than making one or two high-density units. This falls under the concept of economies of scale (Look it up. Same reason it's cheaper, per ounce, to buy a 50 Gallon drum of something, than a 1 Quart bottle of something).

It's a possibility, but not altogether likely. I think that it's in their best interest to get as many of their products out the door as possible, regardless of a current financial situation. If, indeed, they are needing more money, it would seem that filling a large number of orders would entitle them to preorder money for those orders that has apparently been stashed away untouched. Perhaps opening up more capital to invest in the development of YOUR ordered products. More money for BFL quite likely will result in faster completion of the development of their other products that they're still working on.

money is not a problem for BFL shipping out faster.  It is about getting the parts faster which means they have to finalize all of the other products AND get a whole lot more chips, boards, and cases in.

Uh, and you don't think these things cost money? You think the forge is just DONATING wafers of chips? You think the boards and cases are growing in cocoons?

[Inaba]

Uh, and you don't think these things cost money? You think the forge is just DONATING wafers of chips? You think the boards and cases are growing in cocoons?

Gads!  The secret!  She is out! 

I must now go tend my cocoons of soon to be hatching Singles and Minirigs.

[wrenchmonkey]

Uh, and you don't think these things cost money? You think the forge is just DONATING wafers of chips? You think the boards and cases are growing in cocoons?

Gads!  The secret!  She is out! 

I must now go tend my cocoons of soon to be hatching Singles and Minirigs.

It was the "butterfly labs" thing that gave it away, man. You had to realize we'd figure it out eventually.