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Author Topic: Crypto winter is coming again …  (Read 4548 times)
Denker
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October 15, 2017, 07:19:32 AM
 #41

I pondered about whole crypto reality and unfortunately, I need to agree with Jamie Dimon when he said that Bitcoin might be shut down by the governments.
Bitcoin might be something insignificant for now, but it is still growing and very soon when it will reach a certain level we will see government intervention in the bitcoin industry.
Governments like to control money, like to know where and who is sending it. It is not a secret. There is a really high chance that we see a lot more government action against bitcoin.
Most likely some draconian regulation will be put in place, maybe something even more drastic like action including changes to the core BTC protocol.

Have they ever been able to shut down Bittorrent?? Don't think so. Which is responsible for over 30% of the internet traffic by the way.
They can make stupid laws but that's it!
They can not shut down Bitcoin as long it stays that decentralized. I'm not worried in the slightest about that.
And even if they could, something else would pop up, probably much more venomous as Bitcoin, from regulators point of view.
Pandora's box is open! You can not stop that happening anymore.And you won't be able to control it. There will always be a coin coming form the dark and anonymity of the web to change and free the world!!

In terms of Bitcoin again, I'm sure we won't see government intervention, but participation and adoption!!
Japan and South Korea have made the first steps!
Either you adapt and accept this dramatic change how many things will work in the future, without the typical middle men and top down hierarchy, or you will get left behind and become irrelevant, as a person, as a nation, as a business, regarding the future world economy!
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Hyperme.sh (OP)
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October 15, 2017, 07:41:38 AM
Last edit: October 15, 2017, 08:14:16 AM by Hyperme.sh
 #42

I pondered about whole crypto reality and unfortunately, I need to agree with Jamie Dimon when he said that Bitcoin might be shut down by the governments.

Have they ever been able to shut down Bittorrent?? Don't think so.

Your response might be a diversionary tactic to try to make readers think that you’ve refuted the thread topic.

The thread is not alleging that the Crypto winter will be because of the government.

Pandora's box is open! You can not stop that happening anymore.And you won't be able to control it. There will always be a coin coming form the dark and anonymity of the web to change and free the world!!

[…]

Either you adapt and accept this dramatic change how many things will work in the future, without the typical middle men and top down hierarchy, or you will get left behind and become irrelevant, as a person, as a nation, as a business, regarding the future world economy!

That is not a rebuttal of the thread topic. I’m still waiting:

I await your “rebuttal”.

You were given specific technical information which explains that mining will never be sustainably decentralized. And there is further explanation at the other thread.

Nor have you addressed the specific SegWit theft theory.

Afaics, you’re a technological n00b. You have not yet demonstrated that you understand the technology in great depth. I do.

Typically when n00bs can’t understand some technological point, they’ll just assume it’s bullshit, because that is what sheep do. They follow the ass of other sheep in front of them. Baaaa. Baaaa. Moooo. Moooo.

P.S. I do agree that there is a chance that someone will invent a ledger technology which actually remains decentralized, but no one has yet published such a technology publicly. You latched onto a theme of decentralization and you somehow just magically assume that Bitcoin is it, without studying the technological details. Investing by throwing darts blindfolded is what a n00b investor (aka sheep) does.
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October 15, 2017, 08:15:33 AM
 #43

bitcoin doomsday theories have been around for as long as bitcoin has been around. people were calling a "collapse" of the whole thing ever since price went to 10 cents ($0.10) and have been repeating everything ever since.

the "winter is coming" is getting really old. and it doesn't matter how long a text you write about it, it doesn't make it any truer than any of the ten thousand other "winter is coming"s.

there is a perfectly clear trend going on and it will continue like this. there will be fast and big rises, there will also be fast and big dumps. it won't go to $100,000 over night the same way it won't fall back down to $2000 ever again.

Buying the dip...
Hyperme.sh (OP)
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October 15, 2017, 08:18:43 AM
Last edit: October 15, 2017, 08:43:35 AM by Hyperme.sh
 #44

bitcoin doomsday theories have been around for as long as bitcoin has been around. people were calling a "collapse" of the whole thing ever since price went to 10 cents ($0.10) and have been repeating everything ever since.

the "winter is coming" is getting really old. and it doesn't matter how long a text you write about it, it doesn't make it any truer than any of the ten thousand other "winter is coming"s.

And it happened twice. Dropping from $31 to $2 for a couple of years, and then from $1200 to $150 for another couple of years. Repeating perhaps every 3 years, but our sample size is too small to have any predictive confidence in the period. So then next one could be 2017 or 2018.

The crypto winter keeps repeating, yet you imply it never happens. You’re provably lying or misrepresenting the facts.

If you’re intent is to express that many people give false warnings like Chicken Little and only rarely do the Crypto winters come, then please state that more accurately.

[…] it won't fall back down to $2000 ever again.

Quoted for when it does.
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October 15, 2017, 08:27:25 AM
 #45

[…] it won't fall back down to $2000 ever again.

Quoted for when it does.

i don't own the time machine that you own. or is it a crystal ball?

in any case, here is my speculation. if the SegWit2x comes and goes without any major issues the price will not go that low. it will all depend on that. i expect a lot of FUD (like the thing you are doing here) but if 2x turns out to be like bitcoin cash crap, the price will only see a small drop (possible $3900 bottom) and then jumps back up to $4900 in 2-3 days and then to $7000 from there.

Buying the dip...
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October 15, 2017, 08:32:52 AM
Last edit: October 15, 2017, 09:29:22 AM by Hyperme.sh
 #46

in any case, here is my speculation. if the SegWit2x comes and goes without any major issues the price will not go that low.

2x will die. BCH (Bitcoin Cash) will be the big blockers’ choice (after they give up hope on 2x). Bitmain will make it so (by killing 2x).

Bitmain’s strategy is divide-and-conquer and employ deception to load up the double-spendable booty.

it will all depend on that. i expect a lot of FUD (like the thing you are doing here)

You have not rebutted my technological information. Therefor you have not proven I am spreading FUD. I am spreading factual information. I doubt you even comprehend the technological information I have provided.

but if 2x turns out to be like bitcoin cash crap, the price will only see a small drop (possible $3900 bottom) and then jumps back up to $4900 in 2-3 days and then to $7000 from there.

I also think BTC might go to $7000 - $8000 (maybe even higher) in next weeks or months (before any crypto winter).

2x will die and BCH will also go very high.

As for the possibly ensuing crypto winter, the SegWit (not 2x) attack comes later, if at all. The booty has to accumulate first. We await more SegWit transactions to pile up on the blockchain and more miners spending BTC they mined (which becomes a booty they can double-spend later). Hopefully the miners are sending a lot of their mined BTC to Poloniex and Bitfinex, so when they double-spend it with the long-range chain reorganization attack, then those corrupt exchanges and their customers (even the ones who withdrew BTC) will be bankrupted. Of course, a lot of intransigent n00bs who refuse to listen are going to be harmed, as it should be as a reward for the intransigence.

My popcorn is ready. Hard-headed sheep never listen, even we try to warn them.
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October 15, 2017, 03:47:54 PM
 #47

There are some here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=317658.3420 who already TRB is being traded on an exchange under a different name/ticker but of course they could also be fantasists much like one or two people on trilema.



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October 15, 2017, 04:43:07 PM
 #48

It won't be as bad as the Mt. Gox incident...  but all signs are pointing to some growing pains on the horizon.  But I believe that when the smoke clears it will not only rebound, but surpass it's previous high and then keep on growing from there.  That's not to say there won't be more bumps in the road on the way (that's inevitable), but through those up's & downs the up's will outweigh the downs and over time the value will continue rising in the big picture.

It's not a nuclear winter... just a normal one, and a thawing out will be right around the corner.  Springtime will come.
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October 16, 2017, 12:54:18 PM
 #49

Why do you call it Crypto winter? When did this idea came from? I'm assuming that you are referring to the price or could it be the dip, the upcoming forks. Well, this is not really new to me since I've seen some greater dips back then. This is just a normal reaction when there is a fork but the price of bitcoin that keep on rising extremely every year, that is not normal.

I agree, it worries me a bit realizing that bitcoin pumps extremley high just in a couple of weeks. This year, from less than 3k to 5k and almost 6k by the end of the year. I wonder what makes it go up that high, it almost tripled. China banned exchanges and I think that when Japan and Korea adapts it I can not recover that fast but look at it now. I am very glad about the prices but still worried.
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October 16, 2017, 01:05:24 PM
 #50

Why do you call it Crypto winter? When did this idea came from? I'm assuming that you are referring to the price or could it be the dip, the upcoming forks. Well, this is not really new to me since I've seen some greater dips back then. This is just a normal reaction when there is a fork but the price of bitcoin that keep on rising extremely every year, that is not normal.

I agree, it worries me a bit realizing that bitcoin pumps extremley high just in a couple of weeks. This year, from less than 3k to 5k and almost 6k by the end of the year. I wonder what makes it go up that high, it almost tripled. China banned exchanges and I think that when Japan and Korea adapts it I can not recover that fast but look at it now. I am very glad about the prices but still worried.
It seems to me that the main reason that bitcoin is growing in value is a result of the conspiracy whales. But by their actions they are pushing the use of bitcoins ordinary people. This leads to the fact that the number of bitcoin users will continue to grow. Once the number of coins the whales will be comparable to the number of coins available to users of bitcoin will become more stable and predictable.
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October 16, 2017, 02:15:01 PM
 #51

If you are not ready for a 60% correction you are not ready for bitcoin it is that simple.
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October 16, 2017, 05:53:23 PM
 #52

I do not think we will wind up in a crypto winter if there won't be a new bubble first. With 'bubble' I do not mean this cozy ride up but a real fat bubble. On those terms, we are by no means close: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg23031523#msg23031523

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October 18, 2017, 02:57:16 AM
Last edit: October 18, 2017, 11:26:11 AM by Hyperme.sh
 #53

I do not think we will wind up in a crypto winter if there won't be a new bubble first. With 'bubble' I do not mean this cozy ride up but a real fat bubble. On those terms, we are by no means close: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg23031523#msg23031523

The reason that logarithmic charts can overstate the potential reality is because saplings grow to be oak trees, but oak trees do not grow to the moon.

Nevertheless it is possible for Bitcoin’s bubble to move higher than even $10,000 before the next crypto winter. Whether it is likely or not, is not a speculation I am commenting on.

Also please plot the PVI for only SegWit transactions and then you may see a bubble forming. My hypothesis is only about a death to SegWit, so it is SegWit (not Bitcoin in general) where we might see the bubble.

Destroying SegWit on Bitcoin would not shatter confidence in Bitcoin Cash nor in Litecoin. Instead I believe it would boost both of those. And also provide renewed confidence that Satoshi’s Bitcoin will remain immutable.

It will shatter confidence in sheep, UAHF, Core, and other nonsense that should never have had confidence in the first place. But sheep will be sheep.

It will pop the current bubble and reset for the steady rise of BTC at about ~50% per annum (or probably slowing down slightly because larger things grow slower than smaller things do).
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October 18, 2017, 04:49:40 AM
 #54

I do not think we will wind up in a crypto winter if there won't be a new bubble first. With 'bubble' I do not mean this cozy ride up but a real fat bubble. On those terms, we are by no means close: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg23031523#msg23031523
I think that the main thing is to wait for another fork and then see what the situation with Bitcoin pricing will be. After this, one can only expect the stabilization of the course not only on Bitcoin but also on altcoin. Of course, this whole situation is very annoying, but the main thing to keep was with respect to the sale of crypto currency.

#business #forextrader #bitcoinnews #invest
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October 18, 2017, 03:42:24 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2017, 02:20:58 AM by btcbug
 #55

Quote
Nevertheless it is possible for Bitcoin’s bubble to move higher than even $10,000 before the next crypto winter. Whether it is likely or not, is not a speculation I am commenting on.

I try to avoid speculating too much as well as pretty much anything is the norm in cryptos.

My only though is that with LedgerX (CFTC regulated) derivatives now here, I'm especially hesitant to say we'll see a crypto winter, at least not before we see much higher prices.


Quote
The crypto winter keeps repeating, yet you imply it never happens. You’re provably lying or misrepresenting the facts.

History is on the side of repeating bubbles/crashes, so to think that won't happen again is very naive.

I can see a time when we're truly in a bubble, like the tech stock bubble x10! Maybe in a 2 - 5 years or something, when BIG money is in the game on a world wide scale and we'll be in the Trillions for combined MCap. The time when most ICOs have had a few years, and still haven't produced anything tangible and they actually run out of greater fools. Then we'll see something like a true crypto winter that could last for years. The Amazons of the crypto space will still be here (BTC, LTC, ?,?) and the Facebooks will be developed at that time. The rest will be wiped out and people will come to their senses, realizing that ICOs were just ridiculous. In that event BTC would likely take a huge hit in terms of price, so always best to be diversified and keep an eye on new developments.

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October 18, 2017, 06:02:05 PM
 #56

The fundamental analysis is very positive, if we get past the segwit2x attack diatribe that is.

After this event is passed, and given no other news of a nature similar to a big government ban of sorts arise, we would be aiming at very high new ATHs.

The segwit attack described by hyperme.sh is a very interesting theory, but I think it will never happen and consider it a non-treat. I see it as another unrealistic attack vector.

Overall conclusion is that we are going higher.
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October 18, 2017, 11:51:22 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2017, 03:56:34 AM by Hyperme.sh
 #57

The fundamental analysis is very positive,

The fundamental of Bitcoin and nearly all cryptocurrencies is they are a theft paradigm. Every Legendary I know has lost massive amounts of BTC due to scams and theft. This will continue to be the case.

The fundamentals are not the fantasy of defeating the powers that be and spreading freedom to the slaves, that many may imagine they are and which the mass media helps goyim to fantasize about.

Try to wrap your mind about the fact that the people who run the world are thieves. Jesus threw them out of the temple. They're always scheming ways to strip you of your productivity and savings. This is the reality of the world, not some silly fantasy about how we peons ($millionaires and such) rise up and cut off the head of the beast.

if we get past the segwit2x attack diatribe that is.

After this event is passed, and given no other news of a nature similar to a big government ban of sorts arise, we would be aiming at very high new ATHs.

Your use of the term 'diatribe' in this context implies that you you feel someone is repeating something that you feel is not worthy of your (and others') attention.

The term means an unjustified and unfair verbal attack on someone or something.

But that is not a rebuttal.

The segwit attack described by hyperme.sh is a very interesting theory, but I think it will never happen and consider it a non-treat. I see it as another unrealistic attack vector.

Overall conclusion is that we are going higher.

There were those who were warning about Mt. Gox, yet many Legendary members here still lost money because they thought it was unlikely to fail.

Cryptocurrency (in addition to other epochal-shift potential) is a theft paradigm. Every Legendary I know has lost massive amounts of BTC due to scams and theft. This will continue to be the case.

Since many or perhaps most of you have become wiser about safeguarding your private keys and not leaving your BTC on exchanges, the Zionist bankster thieves need a more sophisticated method of taking your BTC from you gullible goyim.

Fact is if a huge booty is created and if there are still millions of BTC that hate SegWit, that is basically a near guarantee that miners will take that booty and give those whales what they want.

I quesstimate slightly below 80% odds of it occurring, but I much less convicted about when it will occur. I think it is quite plausible that the current bubble is nascent and we need to move much higher and have much more booty accumulate before the crypto winter:

Trace Mayer Predicts Bitcoin Will Hit $27,395 USD By February 2018

OTOH, we're already way above the ~50% per annum average appreciation of Bitcoin and we are 5X higher than the prior peak in 2013/14. So we're already entering nosebleed terroritory, but perhaps we need to hit $10,000+ or some level ($50,000?) where my nose is bleeding profusely before we finally get the SegWit attack, the SEC crackdown on major ICOs such as EOS, and perhaps also the failure of TetherUSD, Bitfinex, and perhaps Poloniex also.

Something like a contagion is on my radar but I do not know when. Perhaps some time in 2018. And note that if I am correct about Bitmain clients spending their BTC into exchanges and then later double-spending it with a long-range chain reorganization, we could indeed see exchanges fail.

Something very widespread and sinister is brewing, but it may take us higher and deeper first before it reveals itself.

Given the timing is so uncertain, it's possible that BCH could decline significantly before it catapults. In my theory, the protagonists would want BCH to be sold off and cheap as possible before beginning their SegWit attack. However, if SegWit2x fails (not the attack) as I expect in November, BCH and LTC (with its larger blocks and SegWit) may be the beneficiary for big blockers. So perhaps we get another spike upwards for BCH and LTC (i.e. SegWit not destroyed yet, so 8MB blocks on BCH and 2MB blocks and SegWit on LTC), then perhaps some long drawn out decline before the massive SegWit attack, BCH skyrocketing, and then the crypto winter. There are many possible scenarios.

Seems we are likely to get the battle over larger blocks before the battle over the viability of SegWit. The SegWit attack probably won't occur in 2017.



My only though is that with LedgerX (CFTC regulated) derivatives now here, I'm especially hesitant to say we'll see a crypto winter, at least not before we see much higher prices.

That seems to be a significant development. I was not aware of that. So indeed more leverage means a greater possible swing to the upside, and availability of shorting should mean less collapse to the downside. And this feeds into my point that since no one can print Bitcoin out-of-thin-air yet, a contagion later could be possibly cause widespread defaults. However, Bitfinex found a way to print BTC out-of-thin-air, they created their own token instead of delivering BTC.

We’re blowing more air into the balloons. Every time a new fork is created, the wealth effect makes us all think we’re richer than we were before. But liquidity can be a mirage when we’re effectively buying from ourselves.

If the authorities cut off the spigot somehow by declaring certain tokens to be illegal securities, then perhaps that is one of the factors that could crater the greater bubble we might see over the ensuing months.

Note this is probably just feeding speculation about speculation and yet another example of lack of real world use cases being delivered. There’s no actual revenue model, just like in the Dot.com bubble. And feeding into the SEC’s recent warning about the sector being in a bubble:


Cryptocurrencies are no different from any other investment product. It is a misrepresentation that they offer an alternative to the dollar. No matter how much money one made on Bitcoin, they still have to sell it to realize that profit and how are they measuring that profit? In dollars of course.

That is for the most part correct at this time. Although I can use Bitcoin to pay for things, but normally it is converted to fiat when I pay someone such as pay my rent.

I will be launching an altcoin that attempts to provide utility for the tokens without converting them back to fiat.



Maybe in a 2 - 5 years or something, when BIG money is in the game on a world wide scale and we'll be in the Trillions for combined MCap. The time when most ICOs have had a few years, and still haven't produced anything tangible and they actually run out of greater fools. Then we'll see something like a true crypto winter that could last for years.

It’s not clear to me if we go directly to the $trillions mcap or have another crypto winter interim. The arguments for the former are somewhat compelling. A phase-shift transition normally moves to much greater extremes. Also worry about ICO crackdowns, SegWit attacks, etc, would be indications of not yet being near the top. Near the top, everyone will entirely forget those precautions (and that is when they occur in order to steal from the most people, i.e. the vast majority have to be on the wrong side of the trade). So my precautions are usually premature, as I am highly contrarian.

Well I might say that ETH has had a few years and produced nothing tangible, but ETH was the enabler for ERC-20 ICOs. And the recent EOS token sale to me was an indicator of a fever where afaics suitable legal precautions were deemed unnecessary, but it could be that we are only in the middle innings (baseball analogy) yet.
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October 19, 2017, 08:19:40 AM
 #58

@Hyperme.sh, how can regular BTC users protect themselves from SegWit coins? I use Electrum, and most of my bitcoins are older than the start of SegWit, but how can I check the status of bitcoins transferred into my Electrum wallet since SegWit started?

Is there a way to 'de-SegWit' bitcoins, maybe by sending to myself in an old wallet? I take your advice seriously, and want to avoid having my stash SegWitled away by miners.

This is all I know, and I don’t know much about Bitcoin wallets. Hopefully someone else can offer better insights.

The point of discussing is to crowd source information.

I strongly believe in a Hyper.mesh segwit cryptowinter. Even if the risk and probability was weaker than 20%, it is the kind of scenario that can destroy your wealth (or make you richer) and every sensible investor should have this doom scenario in mind and protect his wealth. I can't see legitimate answers preventing a 51% cartel. The incentive is obvious.

To go further in this doom scenario, I am very surprised and even scared that we can't still find basic information and means to distinguish BTC with segwit history or not.

We may suppose Miners and exchanges partnering are privately using a tool to show if a random BTC has a segwit history. When possible, they may keep the virgin "satoshi's BTC" with no segwit history and release mainly BTC with segwit to the market.
It could lead already to a high number of BTC in the market leaving already no chance for us to receive satoshi's BTCs by chance. The incentive to rollback to satosh'is BTC is even huger if 95% are already in miner's hands.

The incentive for them is also to have the best price for Satoshi's BTC, and If I were in Miners camp, I wouldn't wait too late to rollback in order not to hurt too much the Satoshi's BTC price. It needs to stay connected to the current bubble and not to upset the whole community. They can still market the necessary rollback as a structural segwit flaw they have just discovered and not a during planned and orchestrated evil attack ... They can sell like it is the community interest to roll back now, even without doing the whole attack ! And as sheeps we will follow...
Moreover, with a "segwit distinguer tool" they wouldn't really marginally earn that much by waiting.


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October 19, 2017, 09:40:59 AM
 #59

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It’s not clear to me if we go directly to the $trillions mcap or have another crypto winter interim.

Agreed.

Of course we won't go to a $trillion marketcap without any short or mid term bear phases.
Markets always move in cycles. Up and down. New highs and corrections afterwards before going for other new highs. This happens on any timeframe.
And as a $trillion mcap is still some years away, we will inevitably see some bear cycles.
As long as you aiming for a goal in a few years, you will see this a very healthy, a chance for you to buy more and for others to join this space if they aren't in already. So everything is fine!
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October 19, 2017, 12:57:16 PM
 #60

I strongly believe in a Hyper.mesh segwit cryptowinter. Even if the risk and probability was weaker than 20%, it is the kind of scenario that can destroy your wealth (or make you richer) and every sensible investor should have this doom scenario in mind and protect his wealth. I can't see legitimate answers preventing a 51% cartel. The incentive is obvious.

To go further in this doom scenario, I am very surprised and even scared that we can't still find basic information and means to distinguish BTC with segwit history or not.

We may suppose Miners and exchanges partnering are privately using a tool to show if a random BTC has a segwit history. When possible, they may keep the virgin "satoshi's BTC" with no segwit history and release mainly BTC with segwit to the market.
It could lead already to a high number of BTC in the market leaving already no chance for us to receive satoshi's BTCs by chance. The incentive to rollback to satosh'is BTC is even huger if 95% are already in miner's hands.

The incentive for them is also to have the best price for Satoshi's BTC, and If I were in Miners camp, I wouldn't wait too late to rollback in order not to hurt too much the Satoshi's BTC price. It needs to stay connected to the current bubble and not to upset the whole community. They can still market the necessary rollback as a structural segwit flaw they have just discovered and not a during planned and orchestrated evil attack ... They can sell like it is the community interest to roll back now, even without doing the whole attack ! And as sheeps we will follow...
Moreover, with a "segwit distinguer tool" they wouldn't really marginally earn that much by waiting.

i also believe there is a chance of the hyperme.sh segwit cryptowinter scenario. cant give odds though as i do not have the technical expertise.  i have (very) old pre segwit coins in paper wallets. however i swept other old paper wallets to get bcc/bch and then traded for btc. i also sent some old btc directly to a new trezor segwit account. so some accounts in the new trezor have a mix of btc from an exchange, others are just a straight transfer from a legacy (ie pre segwit) accounts to a segwit account. sure be nice to have a tool that analyzed those accounts and sort them out. be nice to have "guaranteed clean" btc in some trezor accounts and segwit btc in others.
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