daberti
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October 26, 2017, 11:11:03 PM |
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Regarding the fork, there is no reason to move BTC from Jaxx to a paper wallet. You control your private keys on Jaxx, so you should have access to both your BTC and B2X after the fork. Claiming the B2X is a bit tricky because there is no replay protection. I would wait until some good tutorials emerge on how to separate the BTC from B2X. If you're not careful, you might lose BTC in the process.
NOT true at all. When the conditions at my post above will be met, in order to claim your BTG yo'll have to do something like this https://electrum.org/bcc2.txtAs far as B2X is concerned you didn't read my post where I documented that Jaxx is part of the NYA http://segwit.party/nya/Move them ASAP to i.e. Electrum to avoid troubles as B2X has no Replay Protection at all.
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Jonsnowstark
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October 26, 2017, 11:29:38 PM |
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I have come across a blog regarding how to protect our btc for the coming forks. You might wanna check this https://its[Suspicious link removed]/how-to-get-prepared-for-segwit2x-and-bip148-secure-your-bitcoins/ based on the given steps, i guess the paper wallet is the most secure way. You can choose which one would best suit you.
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limopc (OP)
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October 26, 2017, 11:31:52 PM |
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NOT true at all. When the conditions at my post above will be met, in order to claim your BTG yo'll have to do something like this https://electrum.org/bcc2.txtAs far as B2X is concerned you didn't read my post where I documented that Jaxx is part of the NYA http://segwit.party/nya/Move them ASAP to i.e. Electrum to avoid troubles as B2X has no Replay Protection at all. So, you say that I should move all BTC to paper wallet? Ok, after the B2X fork (say mid December), I might need to buy some more BTC or B2X (if BTC died) and B2X replaced it. What would be the destiny of my BTC paper wallet? Please look at my post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2264088.msg23447513#msg23447513 and comment here on this thread, what you think about my estimation/analysis. For convenience, here is what I wrote there: So, I understand the following is correct:
1- I will simply keep my BTC in Jaxx mobile wallet. 2- As of 23 October I will not buy, sell, send, recieive or even move or import between wallets or addresses. 3- 1st December I am having “on the ledgers” say 5 BTC and 5 BTG, and 5 B2X 4- I am having my private keys for BTC in Jaxx wallet.
5 BTC are already in my Jaxx wallet.
BTG block chain exists definetly with its own exchange rate
I assume by 1st December the dust would have settled and we have one of the following situations: 1- BTC or B2X is dead and equal zero, that is, one of them will not be existing, the survivor will be called Bitcoin and BTC (whether it is the 1 MB or the new 2 MB), and it will have the same market price of BTC. 2- BTC only exists (so business as usual, as if there was no segwit2x) 3- B2X only exists (so I have 5 airdropped B2X, with its market value, and 5 BTC are gone) 4- Both BTC and B2X coexists, and I have 5 BTC and 5 B2X (it is up to the market to give the price for each, but the market might support B2X for faster confirmation and lower transaction fee), if so, I assume 1 BTC+1 B2X will be equal to roughly the 6000 USD current market price (assuming no price change till then)
Then remains the question about the replay of the transaction, how would I send all my BTC funds on the 1st December to another BTC address in another wallet and be sure it will be received and executed as BTC during the transaction?
I should then after emptying my Jaxx wallet, install a B2X wallet and import the Jaxx wallet so I get the airdropped 5 B2X in it.
Am I correct in this analysis?
Sorry, it is technically complicated for me.
What do you think?
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squatter
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STOP SNITCHIN'
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October 26, 2017, 11:50:24 PM |
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Regarding the fork, there is no reason to move BTC from Jaxx to a paper wallet. You control your private keys on Jaxx, so you should have access to both your BTC and B2X after the fork. Claiming the B2X is a bit tricky because there is no replay protection. I would wait until some good tutorials emerge on how to separate the BTC from B2X. If you're not careful, you might lose BTC in the process.
NOT true at all. When the conditions at my post above will be met, in order to claim your BTG yo'll have to do something like this https://electrum.org/bcc2.txtActually, the above post is true. I think you misread it. It doesn't say anything about BTG. Jaxx gives you access to your private keys. It's not a web wallet. After the Segwit2x fork, you can extract any private keys that held BTC and they will hold both BTC and B2X. The same is true of the BTG snapshot, once the network actually launches. And it's true that people should avoid transacting until they know how to split their coins. As far as B2X is concerned you didn't read my post where I documented that Jaxx is part of the NYA http://segwit.party/nya/Move them ASAP to i.e. Electrum to avoid troubles as B2X has no Replay Protection at all. It doesn't matter if Jaxx is part of the NYA. Jaxx users still have their private keys. It's not a web wallet like Xapo where users can lose BTC just by holding BTC in the web wallet. Electrum under default settings is just as unsafe as Jaxx to use after the fork. It doesn't enforce consensus rules and randomly connects to trusted servers. As there is no replay protection, Electrum should be usable for both B2X and BTC after the fork. So you can be replay attacked just the same. You should be telling people to move their coins to a Core wallet, not Electrum, if you're concerned about people losing BTC.
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daberti
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October 27, 2017, 12:09:23 AM |
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limopc, you're complicating things...I'll repeat myself... Claiming BTG has already been explained above. With all of the pre-requisites and conditions to be met. If BTG will have an official wallet replay-protection properly witnessed by community etc etc then you'll go this way https://electrum.org/bcc2.txtOtherwise you'll go this way for your own safety http://docs.electrum.org/en/latest/hardfork.htmlPlease read it. B2X will have 33.1% emergent consensus from the >83% that it meant to be, as I'm writing. https://coin.dance/blocksElectrum from 2.9 on allows you to detect Forks and handle them accordingly. This had been implemented with SEGWIT2X in mind. How to do is explained here http://docs.electrum.org/en/latest/hardfork.htmlPlease read it. In general leaving BTC on exchanges (i.e. Coinbase) part of NYA or on wallets (i.e. JAXX)part of NYA is pure lack of common sense. A list (that had been already posted above) of current members of NYA: steer away from them! Abra (United States) supports Bitangel.com / Chandler Guo (China) supports Bitex (Argentina) supports bitFlyer (Japan) supports Bitfury (United States) supports BitPay (United States) supports BitPesa (Kenya) supports Bitso (Mexico) supports Bixin.com (China) supports Blockchain (UK) supports Bloq (United States) supports BTCC (China) supports BTER.com (China) supports Circle (United States) supports Civic (United States) supports Coinbase (United States) supports Coins.ph (Phillipines) supports Decentral (Canada) supports Digital Currency Group (United States) supports Filament (United States) supports Gavin Andresen (United States) supports Genesis Global Trading (United States) supports Genesis Mining (Hong Kong) supports GoCoin (Isle of Man) supports Grayscale Investments (United States) supports Guy Corem (Israel) supports Jaxx (Canada) supports Korbit (South Korea) supports Luno (Singapore) supports MONI (Finland) supports Netki (United States) supports OB1 (United States) supports Purse (United States) supports Ripio (Argentina) supports Safello (Sweden) supports SFOX (United States) supports ShapeShift (Switzerland) supports Veem (United States) supports Xapo (United States) supports I seriously hope we're done with that Now let's wait for the BTG mainnet and BTG wallet.
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daberti
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October 27, 2017, 12:23:06 AM Last edit: October 27, 2017, 12:37:02 PM by daberti |
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It doesn't matter if Jaxx is part of the NYA. Jaxx users still have their private keys. It's not a web wallet like Xapo where users can lose BTC just by holding BTC in the web wallet.
Electrum under default settings is just as unsafe as Jaxx to use after the fork. It doesn't enforce consensus rules and randomly connects to trusted servers. As there is no replay protection, Electrum should be usable for both B2X and BTC after the fork. So you can be replay attacked just the same.
You should be telling people to move their coins to a Core wallet, not Electrum, if you're concerned about people losing BTC.
It does NOT matter if Coinbase here https://blog.coinbase.com/timeline-and-support-bitcoin-segwit2x-and-bitcoin-gold-eda72525efd states "Approximately 24–48 hours post fork. Once we have ensured that the blockchains are stable, Coinbase will re-enable Bitcoin and Bitcoin2x sends and receives. Please be careful when sending funds as certain wallets and bitcoin services may refer to the two blockchains differently." Quite clear the NYA stance. Here http://docs.electrum.org/en/latest/hardfork.html it is stated ...."If you own Bitcoins before the fork, a transaction that spends these coins after the fork will, in general, be valid on both chains. This means that you might be spending both coins simultaneously. This is called ‘replay’. To prevent this, you need to move your coins using transactions that differ on both chains. Fork detection Electrum (version 2.9 and higher) is able to detect consensus failures between servers (blochchain forks), and lets users select their branch of the fork. •Electrum will download and validate block headers sent by servers that may follow different branches of a fork in the Bitcoin blockchain. Instead of a linear sequence, block headers are organized in a tree structure. Branching points are located efficiently using binary search. The purpose of MCV is to detect and handle blockchain forks that are invisible to the classical SPV model. •The desired branch of a blockchain fork can be selected using the network dialog...." Can you get the huge difference? Here you anyone can choose the branch and split the coins, otherwise they'll do double spending by barely importing privvy Keys into the to be B2X wallet (or any other wallet that doesn't allow choosing the proper blockchain). If we don't allow for this sinking deeply in our minds we'll face serious troubles and probably we'll deserve these. EDIT: 1)Core Wallet does NOT enable splitting in a handy way for non techies 2)Jaxx has a proven history of epic failures https://vxlabs.com/2017/06/10/extracting-the-jaxx-12-word-wallet-backup-phrase/#update-extract-pinOther info: https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2017-10-09-segwit2x-safetyInside....."we recommend a wallet such as GreenAddress, Electrum or TREZOR" no wonders Jaxx is NOT there
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limopc (OP)
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October 27, 2017, 12:58:40 AM |
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@daberti,
Sorry, I didn’t mean any complications.
I am just not thatt techie... all what I read are probably, perhaps, maybe, hopefully, undecided... all these doesn’t fit with me.
I just moved all BTC to paper wallet.
Seems to me Bread wallet has some plans for letting users decide which chain they want to transact on.
I’ll wait and see.
Thanks
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Spendulus
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October 27, 2017, 01:07:47 AM |
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Just wondering, as I am reading a lot about Fork risks especially with bitcoin gold.
I have the private keys (the 12 words) safely stored.
What if I simply uninstall the wallet that has my BTC (it is Jaxx by the way) before the fork, then reinstall later and recover from the 12 keywords. Would that be ok or will be risk?
Would my BTC remain BTC or can accidentally be changed to BTG?
What safest wallet?
Your help highly appreciated.
First of all. The "12 words" is not the private key(s). Very different. Read BIP38. Rather than "believe" that the 12 words will restore correctly after a reinstall, why not go to the core of the issue. See if you can dump your private keys, then store them on paper. More. I just went to the JAXX website and started reading their code. Basically my gut feeling is NO JAXX. I didn't go all the way through it, but that's my opinion.
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limopc (OP)
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October 27, 2017, 01:15:03 AM |
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Just wondering, as I am reading a lot about Fork risks especially with bitcoin gold.
I have the private keys (the 12 words) safely stored.
What if I simply uninstall the wallet that has my BTC (it is Jaxx by the way) before the fork, then reinstall later and recover from the 12 keywords. Would that be ok or will be risk?
Would my BTC remain BTC or can accidentally be changed to BTG?
What safest wallet?
Your help highly appreciated.
First of all. The "12 words" is not the private key(s). Very different. Read BIP38. Rather than "believe" that the 12 words will restore correctly after a reinstall, why not go to the core of the issue. See if you can dump your private keys, then store them on paper. Thanks for clarification I already had all BTC in a paper Whaley stored safely, where I have the qr code for both the private key and public key. I’ll see later which wallet I will import to after things get settled or get cleare. I read on bread wallet “What this means is that unless you tether your app to a node of your choosing (a powerful feature that is available within the app today), your Bread will end up interacting with whichever chain has the most miners..” Hopefully there will be a safe way not to lose coins and not to lose value.
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GreenBits
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October 27, 2017, 01:17:38 AM |
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Just wondering, as I am reading a lot about Fork risks especially with bitcoin gold.
I have the private keys (the 12 words) safely stored.
What if I simply uninstall the wallet that has my BTC (it is Jaxx by the way) before the fork, then reinstall later and recover from the 12 keywords. Would that be ok or will be risk?
Would my BTC remain BTC or can accidentally be changed to BTG?
What safest wallet?
Your help highly appreciated.
Let me explain what a fork actually is. At a predetermined time, a snap shot of the original blockchain is taken, and the new chain is start by the b group of miners. he old chain is completely unaffected by this process; its essentially a new coin being created using the records and balances of the existing bitcoin blockchain. As long as you have the private keys to the wallets in question, you should be able to access both chains. Nothing is compromised, nothing is changed. You simply gain the ability to access two different blockchains with a single private key.
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Spendulus
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October 27, 2017, 01:27:14 AM |
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....
I already had all BTC in a paper Whaley stored safely, where I have the qr code for both the private key and public key.
I’ll see later which wallet I will import to after things get settled or get cleare. .......
So you have true legacy bitcoin addresses? Good. One more point. Wait until after the start of 2018. For every time you think about "taking some action" then wait another month. Some people for very specific purposes have created clouds of confusion at this time.
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exstasie
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October 27, 2017, 01:33:03 AM |
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Can you get the huge difference? Here you choose the branch and split the coins, otherwise you'll do double spending by barely importing privvy Keys into the B2X wallet. If you do not get this you'll face serious troubles and probably you'll deserve.
While I agree with your general position, I think that you've been missing the point. People were just saying that what matters is holding your private keys; the "NYA stance" as you put it isn't relevant there. There is an important distinction to make: where you hold your private keys =/= what service you use to push transactions. Anyway, there are a lot of reasons never to use Jaxx regardless of the NYA. It's buggy and the desktop wallet is highly insecure, secured only by a 4-digit pin. Electrum (version 2.9 and higher) is able to detect consensus failures between servers (blochchain forks), and lets users select their branch of the fork. •Electrum will download and validate block headers sent by servers that may follow different branches of a fork in the Bitcoin blockchain. Instead of a linear sequence, block headers are organized in a tree structure. Branching points are located efficiently using binary search. The purpose of MCV is to detect and handle blockchain forks that are invisible to the classical SPV model. •The desired branch of a blockchain fork can be selected using the network dialog...." I like what Electrum has done here, but I still wouldn't be comfortable using it. It's never been tested in the wild, so to speak. I'm still hoping there will be a form of opt-in replay protection. But if not, I'm comfortable doing an RBF + nLocktime transaction to split the coins.
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limopc (OP)
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October 27, 2017, 01:54:14 AM |
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Thanks greenbits
I am still having a problem to figure out if any blockchain will die, both survive, which will be the “real” BTC.
There are lots and lots of writings, both sides claiming the other blockchain will die, the other crypto will be of no value, it is all politics unfortunately...
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limopc (OP)
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October 27, 2017, 02:03:13 AM |
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@spendulus,
Yes, it’s all about confusion, politics as usual,
But for me I see it’s all about “making money”, both sides think as such, not actually improving bitcoin.
Sorry to be honest and clear, this is what I think, I may be wrong, both parties care in the first place about money, their own money. If it was about bitcoin there would have been exchanged discussions and serious technical talk, not exchanged insults between the 2 sides.
Sorry. No offense to anybody.
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daberti
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October 27, 2017, 12:39:04 PM Last edit: October 27, 2017, 12:51:45 PM by daberti |
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@daberti,
Sorry, I didn’t mean any complications.
I am just not thatt techie... all what I read are probably, perhaps, maybe, hopefully, undecided... all these doesn’t fit with me.
I just moved all BTC to paper wallet.
Seems to me Bread wallet has some plans for letting users decide which chain they want to transact on.
I’ll wait and see.
Thanks
Just edited my post above: these are the wallets recommended by Bitcoin Core: "we recommend a wallet such as GreenAddress, Electrum or TREZOR" Link to source in my edited post. BTW my stance is stable and documented. EDIT: Green Address wallet removed by myself as it is based on Centralized Validation.
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daberti
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October 27, 2017, 12:44:10 PM |
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I like what Electrum has done here, but I still wouldn't be comfortable using it. It's never been tested in the wild, so to speak. I'm still hoping there will be a form of opt-in replay protection. But if not, I'm comfortable doing an RBF + nLocktime transaction to split the coins.
I'll be myself the spearhead with BTG, as it will not have decent and decently proven RP (Replay Protection) implemented by mining-start time. After all I'll be sending coins to myself Read also: "we recommend a wallet such as GreenAddress, Electrum or TREZOR" https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2017-10-09-segwit2x-safety ( Red Alert grade, BTW) EDIT: Green Address wallet removed by myself as it is based on Centralized Validation.
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daberti
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October 27, 2017, 01:02:05 PM Last edit: October 27, 2017, 02:21:05 PM by daberti |
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While I agree with your general position, I think that you've been missing the point. People were just saying that what matters is holding your private keys; the "NYA stance" as you put it isn't relevant there. There is an important distinction to make: where you hold your private keys =/= what service you use to push transactions.
What matters is NOT ONLY saving and securely storing your privvy Keys, because WHEN you'll import them to your wallet (either BTG wallet or B2X wallet) you'll expose your BTC sum as well, as BTG currently does NOT have RP implemented and B2X will never have. That is the pivotal point!!! You need to split your BTG/B2X/BTC belongings each one on its very own chain. You're right about one big thing though: using latest Bitcoin Core wallet. This NOT in order to store funds as i did already explain, but to cut out B2X network from BTC one. IMPORTANT BTG Replay-protection related update: https://bitcoingold.org/bitcoin-gold-dev-update-1/" SIGHASH_FORK_ID Replay Protection ETA: Oct 31
PR 1: https://github.com/BTCGPU/BTCGPU/pull/55 PR 2: https://github.com/BTCGPU/BTCGPU/pull/83
We are working on the same 2-way replay protection as Bitcoin Cash. Currently we have two implementations. PR1 is from our dev team and PR2 is from an anonymous person seeking the bounty. The two implementations are roughly the same but both need improvements on testing.
The original intention to make a bounty for it was to find more devs to speed up the development and get more feedback. However a competing implementation is also welcome because we can be more confident by comparing them. So no matter which PR is finally merged, we are happy to see that the anonymous author can get the bounty.
Testing is always more important than coding for this kind of feature. We can’t rush to merge the code until it has been fully tested. So we may need a few days to test until we can be fully confident in it.
"
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xPPx
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October 28, 2017, 10:48:00 AM |
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I have a couple questions. Why not instate replay protection BEFORE the snapshot? Why not push back the snap shot to AFTER replay protection was instated?
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daberti
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October 28, 2017, 10:56:07 AM Last edit: October 29, 2017, 02:28:07 PM by daberti |
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I have a couple questions. Why not instate replay protection BEFORE the snapshot? Why not push back the snap shot to AFTER replay protection was instated?
That's to be asked to them Anyway to me does NOT change anything, i.e. if their chain will be up and running safe and sound, I'll do a coin split as I said, instead of importing privvy Keys thus being on the safe side.
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daberti
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October 29, 2017, 02:04:07 PM Last edit: October 29, 2017, 04:22:48 PM by daberti |
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Update BTG devs are still running pointless like a whole lot of headless chickens According Coinmarketcap their futures are at 0.02235930 BTC and $129.25, just some 12 USD more than the half of ZEC. https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin-gold/Here they are futures for B2X instead: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/segwit2x/Go figure. Now, B2X and Bitfinex. Do you remember my post above mentioning Coinbase stance? Now there is Bitfinex one https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/223The difference is remarkable as in between this post is .... " ...The lack of strong two-way replay protection in Segwit2x means that we must take steps to protect customer funds. At the moment of the fork, all deposits and withdrawals for both BTC and B2X will be halted until we are able to: 1. ‘taint’ our customers’ bitcoins to ensure withdrawals cannot be replayed on both chains; and, 2. ensure that we can properly credit deposits in the event a transaction is replayed on both chains. We expect this process to require at least 24 hours, and potentially significantly longer. If the the event happens, announcements will be made throughout the process to keep everyone up to date." Well done Bitfinex!!
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