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Author Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading  (Read 723559 times)
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TwinWinNerD
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July 15, 2014, 09:06:56 PM
 #3841

Hello, I'm new to using Bitfinex and saw that it trades DarkCoin, DRK.  Can i use Margin to trade DRK???  or is that just for BTC and LTC??

Thanks

Leverage for DRK is not yet available!

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July 16, 2014, 02:08:06 AM
 #3842

@admins

While I appreciate you posting on the forum when there is a major announcement added to https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements, I think you should also send out an email to all Bitfinex.com users when there are major announcements.

I believe you sent an email a while back, perhaps it was about the heartbleed bug.

I don't think every user Bitfinex subscribes to this thread to get updates about announcements, and they must monitor https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements themselves.  I believe every announcement on https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements is worthy of sending a mass email to all users.  Every user should know about these important changes, whether or not they follow on the forum, or have a monitor on https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements.

I am subscribed to this thread, but still miss important announcements, since not all announcements put on https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements are mirrored here.

Every user should be notified of any changes.  It is very important for every user to know any and all changes. Thank you.



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July 16, 2014, 07:05:20 AM
 #3843

Can someone help me understand the "Self Funding" swap changes in the recent announcement?
https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=21

1) Do other margin platforms require the entire position (leveraged or not) to use swaps? Meaning, is this change on par with what other platforms do, or is this a radical change in the way margin trading is done?

2) Does this change mean that if a trader has a $10k balance, and position size is $20k, they only need to borrow a total of a $10k swap?  I understand it that if this trader has a position less than $10k, they would be using no swaps.  What's a little unclear to me is, if this trader then increases their position to $20k, would the full $20k need to be borrowed in swaps, since they are now using leverage?

3) Do you think this change is going to be retroactive to currently opened positions, or is it only for new positions opened after the 21st?

Thanks for your input.

1) I understand it like that too. Have $10k balance, don't need to borrow actual funds to open a position with $10k. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly need to borrow $11k when your position grows to $11k.

Also, why should someone have $10k on the platform, and borrow others USD to go long? Everyone would buy with his own funds first, and then might decide to take those bought BTC as collateral for a real position?

Ente
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July 16, 2014, 08:57:22 AM
 #3844

BitVC - Huobi's new platform - has swaps at a minimum interest rate of 0.1% and a maximum of 1%.  Looks like this is only for CNY/BTC/LTC - in which case it is a very high rate for BTC and LTC, and a reasonable rate for CNY.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=662221.0

Does anyone have more details?

It'd be interesting to know if their swap rate tracks the Bitfinex USD rate.

Thanks for giving BitVC a try. I still have several invitation codes left, so if anyone is interested please send me a private message.
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July 16, 2014, 09:55:53 AM
 #3845

Can someone help me understand the "Self Funding" swap changes in the recent announcement?
https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=21

1) Do other margin platforms require the entire position (leveraged or not) to use swaps? Meaning, is this change on par with what other platforms do, or is this a radical change in the way margin trading is done?

2) Does this change mean that if a trader has a $10k balance, and position size is $20k, they only need to borrow a total of a $10k swap?  I understand it that if this trader has a position less than $10k, they would be using no swaps.  What's a little unclear to me is, if this trader then increases their position to $20k, would the full $20k need to be borrowed in swaps, since they are now using leverage?

3) Do you think this change is going to be retroactive to currently opened positions, or is it only for new positions opened after the 21st?

Thanks for your input.

1) I understand it like that too. Have $10k balance, don't need to borrow actual funds to open a position with $10k. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly need to borrow $11k when your position grows to $11k.

Also, why should someone have $10k on the platform, and borrow others USD to go long? Everyone would buy with his own funds first, and then might decide to take those bought BTC as collateral for a real position?

Ente
Right. Then why, up til now, was it required to borrow for every dollar in your (trading) position?

I'm still not sure whether other margin platforms (BTC exchanges or otherwise), require traders to swap for each dollar, or just for leverage.
Ente
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July 16, 2014, 10:57:40 AM
 #3846

Right. Then why, up til now, was it required to borrow for every dollar in your (trading) position?

..when going long, i.e. buying bitcoins from borrowed USD, you mean?
Well, until now, whenever you open a position, you lend the necessary funds (USD or BTC).
Even if you still had exactly the currency you need in another wallet.

That didn't make sense. The users' actions, that is. Bitfinex did all fine, and now changes some things so users may buy bitcoins with borrowed USD, when they have USD of their own, and now won't have to pay interest for those "borrowed" USD.

Honestly, that whole topic leaves me wondering what the heck people are actually doing in their bitfinex accounts..

Ente
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July 16, 2014, 05:32:42 PM
 #3847

Anyone know of a site logging the interest rate raw data and BTC swapping on bitfinex ?

Thanks

Mig
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July 16, 2014, 05:33:46 PM
 #3848

Anyone know of a site logging the interest rate raw data and BTC swapping on bitfinex ?

Thanks

Mig
http://bfxdata.com

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July 16, 2014, 07:55:27 PM
 #3849

In an ongoing effort to provide our customers with the best possible trading experience ...

So I'm trying to figure out how to expect these upcoming changes to affect the going rate for USD swaps. As a 'lender' I'm not getting an overall-positive feeling from it all (sounds like it'll reduce demand, lead to lower rates, which for reasons of pure self-interest is detrimental to me). But I'm not sure how much of an effect to expect.

Would appreciate any corrections/additions to my logic...

  • Self funding: would reduce demand for swaps by the amount of swap currently taken to cover positions backed by collateral in the 'correct' currency... which, may not be too terribly many - going long on BTC, on margin, with a wallet full of USD seems like an unusual move since you could get the same exposure with no swap cost just by using your own funds. To my understanding, borrowed leverage is useful specifically because it allows you to continue buying/selling past the point where your own funds are exhausted.
    But it is kind of a hassle with all the wallet-juggling to convert your funds back and forward in sync with your positions so maybe there are more people than I expect who are taking out swaps instead of using the currency they already have.
  • Daily Settlement doesn't seem to affect swap providers much at all - the schedule for payments are unchanged, and while the 'term' option might create some fresh demand for swaps each day, the quantity probably isn't huge if the default will be 'daily'.
    If 'term' became very popular it might cause a daily synchronised spike in demand, but that may just match the daily synchronised spike in supply from auto-lenders receiving and offering out their daily swap payment.
  • Real-time autorenew is quite welcome - it's always been somewhat frustrating to see <$100 amounts sit idle with auto-renew set but not activating for 15 minutes, and having no other option to get it moving. Can't see it affecting rates in any systemic way
  • Swap-bot seems like the real killer here. Making it easy and automatic to jettison a high-rate swap just as soon as a lower offer comes along seems like a recipe for a race to the bottom, as well as making it difficult for manually set offers to compete with automated offers if it reduces the average duration of a swap.
    Maybe I've just gotten too used to being a well-fed parasite, but it seems like the possibility of making good returns partly relies on those traders who don't care to manually manage their swaps in search of the best rate, and leave swaps open for days at a time at a slightly elevated rate. If every swap only lasts as long as it takes for a lower offer to appear... I fear I'm just going to see all my cash sat idle more often than not


Bitfinex referral code: uOaxAuXdVX
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July 16, 2014, 08:13:38 PM
 #3850

Swap-bot seems like the real killer here. Making it easy and automatic to jettison a high-rate swap just as soon as a lower offer comes along seems like a recipe for a race to the bottom, as well as making it difficult for manually set offers to compete with automated offers if it reduces the average duration of a swap.
Maybe I've just gotten too used to being a well-fed parasite, but it seems like the possibility of making good returns partly relies on those traders who don't care to manually manage their swaps in search of the best rate, and leave swaps open for days at a time at a slightly elevated rate. If every swap only lasts as long as it takes for a lower offer to appear... I fear I'm just going to see all my cash sat idle more often than not[/li][/list]

Yes, that's the big question indeed.
Honestly, as a borrower, I don't feel too excited about this. This sounds more like "bots automatically snatch away all good swap offers I normally would take manually". ;-)
The truth probably lays in the middle, where the market becomes more mature and efficient, and both sides use bots. So maybe there will be a more stable middle, where all demands meet, without crazy swings in the rates (which noone likes?), and everybody is happy? That's the theory of all those anarchists and free-market-fans, right? :-P

Ente
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July 16, 2014, 08:15:40 PM
 #3851

Dear All

as promised some days ago I would like to introduce our community with Josh Rossi, who from now on will be our PR guy and the person to talk to for any suggestion or advice about our trading platform.

Josh (aka mjr on bitcointalk) is the guy that started Satoshi Square in New York several months ago and has been a long time bitcoin evangelist, conference speaker and he actively contributed to bootstrap a lot of startups in our field.

From now on he will pretty much take over my place in answering questions from you all, I'm sure he will do a much better job than me in this.  Wink

Last but not least I would like to apologize for anything I might have written on this thread that hurt the feelings of any of you.
I will from now on concentrate more on other tasks, even if I'll keep reading you all.

Thanks a lot for the trust and your positive feedback to Bitfinex.

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Hello everyone,

Thanks so much, Giancarlo. I am really excited to be a part of this team. I plan on trying to make information much easier for you all to access, and hopefully, if I can, much clearer.

I think that Bitfinex is the best bitcoin exchange around, technologically speaking, and we are only continuing to improve. One area where we may be able to improve more, is in our communication with you, our loyal customers. I am available, here, on reddit (official_bitfinex), on twitter (@joshrossi), and many other ways. I look forward to hearing your suggestions and doing my best to implement them. Under the hood, bitfinex has some of the best technology, and some of the smartest financial minds in the bitcoin space, I hope to add to that, and hopefully make sure that our communication is as good as our technology.

Regards,
Josh
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July 16, 2014, 11:45:01 PM
 #3852

Bitfinex,

I think your design for the swap bot could be improved in a few ways. As it is currently, it is very one sided to borrowers. If you are going to implement 'refinance' automation, I think you also need to offer a bot for lenders that implements the following, very simple logic:

 - Autolend bot, which instead of a fixed rate, autolends at max(fixed rate, current best swap offer +/- delta), and let users set delta and fixed rate.

 - Another slightly more complicated approach might be to let lenders decide how 'deep' into the order book they want their offer to go, ie the lender wants their offer to appear in the 'first' 50,000 USD of offers, or they want their offer to appear in the first 200,000 of offers.

Note that this bot would not run periodically and change offers, as in the case of most people using negative deltas (undercutting prices) this would lead to a race to the bottom. It would only set the price of the offer when unused deposit funds are being auto-lent. This stops the current phenomenon of one's swapping closing out and the autolend bot re-lending it at (say) .1% despite the current best offer being at (say) .2%!

I am also curious as to how your refinance bot will decide who gets priority for the best offers - short of randomizing the order of priority each execution I don;t see how you can make it fair.

Also, I want to express my displeasure that you are implementing these changes with less than 30 days notice. This means that I will not have time to allow all of my swaps to close and remove my money from the platform, or at least from the margin/lending part of it, prior to the changes coming into force. This is unacceptable to me, as any change comes with risks - we need the option of responding to those risks.

 I understand that your priority is to reduce risk and to do so promptly but I think a policy of at least 30 days notice for platform (and/or T&C) changes is a must. In many countries such a thing is a legal requirement (actually often 90 days) and even where it is not it is a fairly standard T&C clause.

Unlevereged financial instruments acting as a store of value that fluctuate 50% within 10 minutes is perfectly acceptable. I think it should be offered in IRA form to soon to be retirees.
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July 17, 2014, 02:49:06 AM
Last edit: July 17, 2014, 05:40:08 AM by PirateHatForTea
 #3853

TL;DR - The change to not needing swap until you exceed your trading wallet USD balance will actually reduce risk for lenders, but only if the calculation for liquidation prices remains unchanged (and if lenders are paid before traders in case of liquidation). It will however do this at the cost of reducing the demand for swaps by anywhere between 40% to 100%.

BFX, can you also please clarify what effect the changes will have on liquidation prices? I'm going to run through an example to clarify my understanding of all the changes, please correct.

Let's say we have a trader, with the 1000USD and 1BTC in their trading account. BTC is trading for 600 say, so their margin balance is $1600.
They have 2.5:1 leverage switched on, so their liquidation price is when their effective margin reaches 13% of their margin.

Their tradeable balance is (note that swap interest is a negative value):

Pre-July 21 calc:
Code:
leverage * margin balance (in USD) + unrealized profit + unrealized swap - balance spent on any open trading position(s)
2.5 * 1600 + 0 + 0 - 0 = 4000

Post-July 21 calc:
Code:
leverage * margin balance (in USD) + unrealized profit + unrealized swap - balance spent on any open trading position(s) - value of BTC component of margin balance*
2.5 * 1600 + 0 + 0 - 0 - 600 = 3400
(The BTC value of the margin balance is subtracted from tradable balance because this is treated essentially like taking a BTC 'position' with some of your tradeable balance)

What I call 'effective margin' is margin balance plus unrealized profit plus unrealized swap. At the moment a position is opened it is always = margin balance as there is not yet any profit or swap. When the margin ratio = effective margin/margin balance hits the trigger, (in this case 13%) the trader is liquidated. This is how we calculate liquidation price.

If we assume a simple position of n bitcoins bought at price Pbuy and CUSD USD plus CBTC BTC in the trading account, then Margin ratio equals:
( n*P - n*Pbuy + Iswap + CUSD + P*CBTC) / (CUSD + P*CBTC)

Liquidation price is when this equals 0.13, so
Pliq = (n*Pbuy - 0.87*CUSD - Iswap) / (n + 0.87*CBTC)

Lets say the trader opens a position by buying 5BTC at $600. Their tradeable balance and liquidation prices at the moment the position is opened look like the following:

Pre-July 21 calculation:
Code:
Tradeable balance = 2.5 * 1600 = 4000
Active swaps = 5 * 600 = 3000
Liquidation price = ( 5*600 - 0.87*1000 - 0 )/( 5 + 0.87*1 ) = $362.86

Post-July 21 calculation:
Code:
Tradeable balance = 2.5 * 1600 - 600 = 3400
Active swaps = 5 * 600 - 1000 = 2000
Liquidation price = ( 5*600 - 0.87*1000 - 0 )/( 5 + 0.87*1 ) = $362.86

(BFX - Is this new liquidation price calc correct ie it remains the same? Does anything change?)

OK, that's all good, but if the liquidation prices are the same, where does the reduced risk come from? The answer is that this change probably doesn't reduce the risk of a cascading liquidation by much, (assuming that I'm right and the liq. price calc doesn't change) but if it works the way I am assuming then lenders will be more protected because even in the case of a forced liquidation, it will be the trader's money that is put at risk first. Let's see what I mean.

Under the pre July-21 system, a liquidation causing a loss to lenders will occur when the effective margin drops below zero. This is when the loss is equal to the total margin balance, so when

Plosing = (n*Pbuy - (CUSD - Iswap) / (n + CBTC)

This will occur at (5*600 - 1000 - 0)/(5+1) = $333.33.
We can see that liquidating the position by selling the 5 bitcoins, plus the 1 bitcoin collateral, will yield 6 * 333.33 = 2000. This plus the 1000 in the trader's wallet will be just enough to pay back the lender their $3000 swap.

OK, what about after July 21? Say price goes to $333.33 and we liquidate. We get the same $2000, and the trader also has the $1000 in his wallet. The lender gets paid back the $2000, and the trader at least still has his $1000 USD collateral too. There's an 'extra' $1000 USD of margin in play here!

In the case that the liquidation price is below this amount, I would assume that the lender takes priority (again BFX need to clarify here!). So this means that the actual price that will cause a loss to lenders post July 21 is when effective margin = negative USD collateral, so:
Plosing = (n*Pbuy - (2*CUSD - Iswap) / (n + CBTC)

So yes this change will result in reduced risk for lenders, but it will also mean that demand for swaps to cover the portion of the position that otherwise would be bought with the trading wallet USD balance will vanish. Given that for each individual, their current leverage is bounded between 1 (they are borrowing less than their margin balance) and 2.5, this drop in demand is bounded between 100% and 40%. Obviously most people using the margin trading feature have leverage above 1, so it's unlikely that the drop will be near to 100, but it's also unlikely to be near to 40% either. I would guess between 50 - 60%.

It's also worth noting that this part of the change doesn't affect the likelihood of a cascading flash crash very much. However the change in the treatment of BTC/LTC collateral will have an effect there, by reducing the effective leverage possible for these traders.

I think this change by BFX is as much a PR move as it is a move truly intended to avert systemic risk. The headline 'swaps active' number is going to drop by a huge amount; this is all BFX management really want, cos they hope that then people will stop whinging about it in the forums and making them look bad. Given Giancarlo's response to the completely reasonable thread about there being a BFX credit bubble (he called it FUD and was childishly abusive) I think the real motivations here are clear.

Lender beware.

Unlevereged financial instruments acting as a store of value that fluctuate 50% within 10 minutes is perfectly acceptable. I think it should be offered in IRA form to soon to be retirees.
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July 17, 2014, 03:46:07 AM
 #3854

Who is the ceo or bitfinex official representative?

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July 17, 2014, 08:27:19 AM
 #3855

Who is the ceo or bitfinex official representative?

The reps in this thread are urwhatuknow & unclescrooge.  Not sure who exactly is the ceo.

edit: and it seems mjr is also a rep
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July 17, 2014, 11:10:26 AM
 #3856

Anyone know of a site logging the interest rate raw data and BTC swapping on bitfinex ?

Thanks

Mig
http://bfxdata.com

Thanks I had this one but couldn't find the raw data to download in a zip and try to implement in my bot. I guess that's pretty much the only place where they have it at least in a chart. Have been lookingfor a couple hours.
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July 17, 2014, 12:50:30 PM
 #3857

urwhatuknow = Giancarlo Devasini, CFO of Bitfinex
unclescrooge = Raphael Nicolle, CTO of Bitfinex

BFX do not appear to have a CEO.

Unlevereged financial instruments acting as a store of value that fluctuate 50% within 10 minutes is perfectly acceptable. I think it should be offered in IRA form to soon to be retirees.
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July 17, 2014, 01:54:37 PM
 #3858

urwhatuknow = Giancarlo Devasini, CFO of Bitfinex
unclescrooge = Raphael Nicolle, CTO of Bitfinex

BFX do not appear to have a CEO.

Jean Louis van der Velde CEO




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July 17, 2014, 02:57:13 PM
 #3859

I've looked around and cant find the answer to this, but are US citizens allowed to trade on BFX?  And is the only way to fund our account with an international bank account?  I'm only posting here because they dont answer their emails.
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July 17, 2014, 03:08:27 PM
 #3860

I've looked around and cant find the answer to this, but are US citizens allowed to trade on BFX?  And is the only way to fund our account with an international bank account?  I'm only posting here because they dont answer their emails.
Yes US citizens can trade.
No you don't need a certain type of bank account. USA accounts are fine. As long as you can wire transfer, you are fine. Or fund your account with BTC.

Other info:
https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/tos

"Other Regions and Jurisdictions

    Registered members of whom transactions only involve virtual currencies are not required to have their identities verified (subject to change in the future).
    Registered members from all regions and jurisdictions are required to verify their identities, prior to being authorized to perform any transaction involving fiat currency. This includes the submission of certified copies of both ID and proof of address. Valid ID includes a passport (or in some cases an ID card, subject to our approval). Valid proof of address includes utility and tax bills not older than 3 months. Other forms of ID and Address verification will not be accepted. Your account will have limited functionality (viewing only) until account verification has been completed.
    Suspicious transactions will result in a Suspicious Activity Report being submitted to the relevant regulatory and compliance bodies applicable in the registered members' verified country of origin.
"
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