2013-06-13 Latest from FinCEN

[malevolent]

translation is get rid of tin foil hats and chinese whispers. read the regulations about FIAT and realise they can only control the FIAT. so get regulated if you are touching FIAT.

just those innovative teentrepreneurs (teenage amateur entrepreneurs)wanting to exchange fiat for other currencies GET REGULATED.

Sure, just provide the money necessary for the paper-shuffling beaurocracy, time wasted (because time = money) and to cover the alternative cost of having less clients.

[cho]

I found it disturbing to read a lot of bitcoin-related headlines being cited in this document, while the body doesn't even mention bitcoin.
The message, to my hears, is :
1. "We know this virtual currency thing is mostly about bitcoins"
2. "We will not confirm or deny we are currently working on regulating bitcoin"
Which is quite disturbing to me. Maybe they want to keep all options on the table while they try to find ways to regulate bitcoins behind their "closed doors". Maybe they're not sure if they can or cannot, technically speaking, at this time.

[600watt]

overall very positive.

they just want to regulate the exchanges.

users/miners unaffected.

I read it a little differently. It sounds like they're claiming a wide territory:

Those who are intermediaries in the transfer of virtual currencies from one person to another person, or to another location, are money transmitters that must register with FinCEN as MSBs, unless an exception applies.

Right, an intermediary, or a third party is a money transmitter.  A miner moving Bitcoin to an exchange has no middleman.  A miner purchasing goods directly from a store uses no third party.  It's the intermediary that has to register, not the miner.

that is how i understand it. miners get rewarded for the computing power they contribute. the reward is in bitcoin. no third party.

[infested999]

translation is get rid of tin foil hats and chinese whispers. read the regulations about FIAT and realise they can only control the FIAT. so get regulated if you are touching FIAT.

bitcoin unaffected, pools unaffected bitcoin-QT unaffected.
....cut

I totally agree with you on this, but the value can't be kept crypto/virtual forever. Merchants have to pay their bills, Miners their energy and so on.

They can pay their bills in Bitcoin. This is why it was so important when Bitcoin suppliers started popping up instead of just sellers, because it's important to have a closed loop without fiat. Supplier -> Reseller -> Customer -> Wages

[RodeoX]

I suppose if you have built your world around the idea that the government is an evil institution who's secret plans are to get you, then you will read this as evidence of their scheming.
Here in the real world a document like this is a welcomed addition to the legal precedent. It is the most positive document I have yet seen from a regulatory body. You can all send FinCen a tip from the profit you are about to realize due to this.

If your problem is that any regulation is unwelcome, then stick to shitcoins. Under no legal scenario are you going to be able to make fiat money off bitcoin and not pay taxes. The moment you turn your BTC into $USD you are using THEIR money and must play by THEIR rules.  You can't have it both ways.

[Micky25]

I'm fine with this - but what will it be then? Paypal light?

[600watt]

I suppose if you have built your world around the idea that the government is an evil institution who's secret plans are to get you, then you will read this as evidence of their scheming.
Here in the real world a document like this is a welcomed addition to the legal precedent. It is the most positive document I have yet seen from a regulatory body. You can all send FinCen a tip from the profit you are about to realize due to this.

If your problem is that any regulation is unwelcome, then stick to shitcoins. Under no legal scenario are you going to be able to make fiat money off bitcoin and not pay taxes. The moment you turn your BTC into $USD you are using THEIR money and must play by THEIR rules.  You can't have it both ways.

+1

with a few sentences they could have done much harm to the bitcoin price, which is in some critical phase anyway. and they know that. if they would want to destroy it anyway, there would be no need for this soft talk. they decided not to destroy/fight/harm it. that is a good sign. there is some protection/pro bitcoin lobbying going on already. maybe the governments actually welcome this new competitor to old-fashioned banking. bankers have lots of political power. sometimes it is not really clear who is the one with more power: bankers or politicians. politicians know that we know and that is emberrassing. if a competitor for the banking moloch is rising, it can be used by politicians as a tool to regain some influence. if there is a power you are struggling with, anything that weakens your opponent is welcome. the higher ranking a politician is the more strategic his views are. going after bitcoin only because some traditonal bankers say so would be a terrible strategy for anyone who feels the power of the bankers daily.

this does not mean that all the bankers hate bitcoin. most of them think in terms of profit. if they can profit with bitcoin they will do so. bookshops sell kindle devices. banks will sell/handle bitcoin. they will be happy to dig their own gaves as long as they get payed for...

[Explodicle]

Think of the children!

Now please keep paying the inflation tax so we can start more wars. And keep paying bankers to evict families out of their bubble-priced homes. And support our drug laws that make medicine expensive and encourage underage drug mules.

[Vanderi]

I'll just say I'm happy I live on the european continent and have no chosen intermediaries of mine having to report to the FINCEN.

I counted the times that child exploitation was mentioned in a speech AGAINST, not for virtual currencies and just left it at that.

There may be people who cannot see what she truly is communicating but I know what my opinion of this american posse move is and it is not "positive in overall" at all. A war and hunt clearly was initiated evenso if it will be impossible as bitcoin is a global hydra.

Finally, with the spying scandal of NSA and bonus with america using rape of enemy territory teenage girls as an experimental weapon which was filmed for study, the integrity of the country is in my book a full round zero.

Simple as that, my BTC0.00000002.

[Severian]

I suppose if you have built your world around the idea that the government is an evil institution who's secret plans are to get you, then you will read this as evidence of their scheming.

The evidence of their scheming is the fact that the US govt. has just admitted to the largest spying operation, on its own citizens, in history.

f your problem is that any regulation is unwelcome, then stick to shitcoins.

If you don't like BTC, why do you hang around this forum?

[Vanderi]

Yeah wth is that guys problem, "shitcoins" ffs

[Severian]

Yeah wth is that guys problem, "shitcoins" ffs

It is an odd sentiment for a lifetime member of the Bitcoin Foundation to express.

[RodeoX]

I suppose if you have built your world around the idea that the government is an evil institution who's secret plans are to get you, then you will read this as evidence of their scheming.

The evidence of their scheming is the fact that the US govt. has just admitted to the largest spying operation, on its own citizens, in history.

f your problem is that any regulation is unwelcome, then stick to shitcoins.

If you don't like BTC, why do you hang around this forum?

Let me explain. First the shitcoin thing. Shitcoin is one of the many alt coins out there. I do not think it has a future at all, so I was suggesting that bitcoiners who want to live tax free should focus on such an alt coin and leave bitcoin alone. Bitcoin does have a future.
I am NOT a fan of regulation and feel that regulation often "kills the golden goose". However it is not unreasonable that the government demand their share of tax revenue, just like all other commerce. Without guidance on how that will be accomplished few serious businesses will risk accepting BTC for payment. That is why I welcome some non-destructive regulation.
I don't like how my taxes are used. As you point out the government is not without scandal and has done many immoral and illegal things. But that is another issue. 

[Severian]

However it is not unreasonable that the government demand their share of tax revenue, just like all other commerce.

I have to disagree. This government has proven itself nothing but unreasonable. The unreason that emanates from DC results in more evil than good in this world.

They may be able to force some people and exchanges to pay up with the usual threats, but why would a reasonable person willingly want to cooperate with evil?

[RodeoX]

However it is not unreasonable that the government demand their share of tax revenue, just like all other commerce.

I have to disagree. This government has proven itself nothing but unreasonable. The unreason that emanates from DC results in more evil than good in this world.

They may be able to force some people and exchanges to pay up with the usual threats, but why would a reasonable person willingly want to cooperate with evil?

We are not so far apart. I don't think the US gov is "evil" though. If I did I would not only not pay taxes, I would fight them on the battlefield. But this is not Syria. I think of governments like people. They are a complicated mix. sometimes acting foolishly or even against the people. But at least here we have hope to change things. Even in my lifetime I have seen bad ideas turned upside down. When I was born it was illegal for a black man to marry a white woman. And look at how far we have come with legalizing drugs, or solidifying our right to carry firearms.  It is far from perfect, and probably trending in the wrong direction, but it is worse for most people on Earth. In fact I live in one of the safest place and times in all human history. No one has been as free as we are now.  

[Severian]

No one has been as free as we are now. 

There were far more freedoms before the increasingly centralized police states that typify the modern State:

"Next in importance to personal freedom is immunity from suspicions, and jealous observation. Men may be without restraints upon their liberty: they may pass to and fro at pleasure: but if their steps are tracked by spies and informers, their words noted down for crimination, their associates watched as conspirators, who shall say that they are free? Nothing is more revolting to Englishmen than the espionage which forms part of the administrative system of continental despotisms. It haunts men like an evil genius, chills their gaiety, restrains their wit, casts a shadow over their friendships, and blights their domestic hearth.

The freedom of a country may be measured by its immunity from this baleful agency. Rulers who distrust their own people, must govern in a spirit of absolutism; and suspected subjects will be ever sensible of their bondage."

The Constitutional History Of England Vol II (1863), pg. 288

by T. E. May

The difference is that now we have the same tools that the State has had over us: crypto.

I teach all the kids in my sphere about crypto if they're interested. That's how things will change within the next generation.

[RodeoX]

I don't have any kids. But if I did I would also teach them to resist any kind of tyranny. Crypto, weapons, survival... Hey, we should arrange a playdate! lol

I read this guys book last year and I thought he made a good case for our relative freedom. Here is his TED talk.
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Hopefully our luck won't run out and see a slide into some kind of Orwellian future. With people like you and me and our kids, anyone oppressing us is at least going to get hurt trying.

[franky1]

translation is get rid of tin foil hats and chinese whispers. read the regulations about FIAT and realise they can only control the FIAT. so get regulated if you are touching FIAT.

just those innovative teentrepreneurs (teenage amateur entrepreneurs)wanting to exchange fiat for other currencies GET REGULATED.

Sure, just provide the money necessary for the paper-shuffling beaurocracy, time wasted (because time = money) and to cover the alternative cost of having less clients.

well this is where people have to get their head out of the sand and stop thinking mining is the only way to make money.
average joe with fiat in his hand does not make money by minting coins or mining gold, printing bank notes. he works for companies that give him fiat.

so if you work. get your boss to accept bitcoin for the services they offer and you will happily accept that received bitcoin as your wage. if everyone done this, it would change everything

[Severian]

Hopefully our luck won't run out and see a slide into some kind of Orwellian future.

We're already there. I'd say it's more Huxleyian than Orwellian, but that's just hairsplitting about what kind of totalitarianism is looming over us.

[600watt]

Hopefully our luck won't run out and see a slide into some kind of Orwellian future.

We're already there. I'd say it's more Huxleyian than Orwellian, but that's just hairsplitting about what kind of totalitarianism is looming over us.

yes, +1

but no, orwell couldn´t even imagine that...

...for example people would pay for their own surveilance devices, carry them around 24/7 and re-charge them themselves, when they run out of energy.

...for example people would have their body fluids scanned by the police and if a metabolic trace of a forbidden fruit is found, they get punished.

...

...