2013-06-13 Latest from FinCEN

[atomium]

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[franky1]

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

if you touch fiat then i would call your countries financial authorities. if you only accept bitcoin, don't worry

[atomium]

oh awesome, yea we dont convert for fiat we just collect bitcoin, take our fee, then pay out the bitcoin to the seller.

[franky1]

meanwhile the bitcoin community think that bitcoin will ruin the fiat currencies somehow.

so the main face of the UK pound coin made a statement

[Severian]

meanwhile the bitcoin community think that bitcoin will ruin the fiat currencies somehow.

The European Central Bank has already said it was a threat to the reputation of central banks.

"Greater demand for virtual currencies could have a negative impact on the reputation of central banks, according to a report published by the European Central Bank in October last year. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/bitcoin-s-gains-may-fuel-central-bank-concerns-chart-of-the-day.html

[Trongersoll]

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

In my opinion, if you are not offering to exchange for fiat, you should be fine. But, keep detailed records. If you are making any kind of money off this enterprise, fiat or otherwise, sooner or later the Taxman will request his due.

Personally, I am keeping a ledger of all Bitcoin related expenses and income. As long as i keep investing in new equipment to keep up with the ASIC arms race, my mining will be considered a Hobby. Eventually, I'll start taking a percentage as profit and then i'll just pay taxes on that. As long as you stay above board with what you are doing i doubt the US Gov. will really care.

[franky1]

meanwhile the bitcoin community think that bitcoin will ruin the fiat currencies somehow.

The European Central Bank has already said it was a threat to the reputation of central banks.

"Greater demand for virtual currencies could have a negative impact on the reputation of central banks, according to a report published by the European Central Bank in October last year. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/bitcoin-s-gains-may-fuel-central-bank-concerns-chart-of-the-day.html

nah its not bitcoin causing negative impact... its the bankers of 2007 that done that, all by themselves

[Severian]

nah its not bitcoin causing negative impact... its the bankers of 2007 that done that, all by themselves

Bitcoin is a threat because banks can't manipulate its creation or distribution. They can only attempt to manipulate the price and try to surreptitiously keep as many bitcoins out of circulation as possible.

If Bitcoin wasn't a threat to banks, Fincen wouldn't be interested in Bitcoin.

[atomium]

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

In my opinion, if you are not offering to exchange for fiat, you should be fine. But, keep detailed records. If you are making any kind of money off this enterprise, fiat or otherwise, sooner or later the Taxman will request his due.

Personally, I am keeping a ledger of all Bitcoin related expenses and income. As long as i keep investing in new equipment to keep up with the ASIC arms race, my mining will be considered a Hobby. Eventually, I'll start taking a percentage as profit and then i'll just pay taxes on that. As long as you stay above board with what you are doing i doubt the US Gov. will really care.

Thank you for that, it really helps, yea we are keeping very detailed records of all our transactions so that should help us with any issues that we may come by. We will also be making a profit so like you said once we move to to fiat we will have to pay taxes on it.

Now another question what if we never change to fiat and use the bitcoins to make purchases lets say for non-business related expenses?

[Trongersoll]

Now another question what if we never change to fiat and use the bitcoins to make purchases lets say for non-business related expenses?

Hey! Look over there! *quickly runs the other way*

heh. I'm not a lawyer or a tax accountant. What you are asking is uncharted territory. Gov.s aren't stupid. They are going to demand their piece of the action one way or another. Once enough people start using Bitcoins in their daily transactions the Gov. will notice and demand their taxes. It will probably take some time though. Perhaps the day will come when the Gov. will accept the taxes on the bitcoin portion of your income in bitcoins. Most likely though, they will factor in some average exchange rate like they do for capital gains made on multiple stock purchases all liquidated at once.

[atomium]

Now another question what if we never change to fiat and use the bitcoins to make purchases lets say for non-business related expenses?

Hey! Look over there! *quickly runs the other way*

heh. I'm not a lawyer or a tax accountant. What you are asking is uncharted territory. Gov.s aren't stupid. They are going to demand their piece of the action one way or another. Once enough people start using Bitcoins in their daily transactions the Gov. will notice and demand their taxes. It will probably take some time though. Perhaps the day will come when the Gov. will accept the taxes on the bitcoin portion of your income in bitcoins. Most likely though, they will factor in some average exchange rate like they do for capital gains made on multiple stock purchases all liquidated at once.

haha, yea I agree with what you're saying it does make sense and will most likely be awhile before they actually make it mandatory. I was just curious to see what people's thoughts were. Thank you again for the advice.

[atomium]

Now another question what if we never change to fiat and use the bitcoins to make purchases lets say for non-business related expenses?

Sounds like your heading into a can of worms if taxes ever come into it. The wallet transactions save a lot of paperwork but it could be worth using separate wallets for different types of expenses and keeping an eye out for bitcoin based accounting software being development.

We are keeping very detailed records of all orders and expenses for the business so that should help us with any issues that we face when regulation starts to take place. Now that's a great idea, a bitcoin based accounting software would be amazing.

[franky1]

nah its not bitcoin causing negative impact... its the bankers of 2007 that done that, all by themselves

Bitcoin is a threat because banks can't manipulate its creation or distribution. They can only attempt to manipulate the price and try to surreptitiously keep as many bitcoins out of circulation as possible.

If Bitcoin wasn't a threat to banks, Fincen wouldn't be interested in Bitcoin.

bitcoin is not a threat because:

1) the banks only care about FIAT.
2) when you buy bitcoin you hand over FIAT to another person... its the same as buying a tin of baked beans.. money moves from one account to another. but essentialy stays within the financial system, which they love.
3) bitcoin can help banks. instead of polish, mexican, asian workers putting FIAT into envelopes to send to their birth countries. they will in the future buy a bitcoin locally (keeping FIAT in country) and allow the bitcoin move across borders.
4) as long as the gateways in and out of FIAT are secure. they dont care about other currencies.
5) as long as minimum wage laws exist the 99% population that work hourly wages will get paid in FIAT so bitcoin will not "take over" the world.. but may when more popular, work along side it.
6) fincen (america) is only as interested in bitcoin as interested in the EURO.

bitcoin has POTENTIAL of being a threat,

but right now the Yen and Euro concerns them more then anything. and these fincen meetings are not about BITCOIN par Say. they are about FIAT exchanges that don't obide by FIAT rules, which are now popping up due to naive teentrepreneurs.

instead of forming opinions based on chinese whispers of other people on the forum.. PLEASE go to the source, read the material properly. learn what the rules are the limits to their powers and read their concerns and you will see that bitcoin is not a threat. just the naive law breaking people that want to convert their illegal activities into FIAT.

the sponsors of the meeting : child exploitation charity, where their due to LIBERTY EXCHANGE (a FIAT exchange) but not due to bitpay, bitinstant, bitcoinQT, bitcoin mining...

[Severian]

go to the source

The source is the European Central Bank.

Virtual currency schemes could lead to the emergence
of multiple units of account in the real economy. Virtual currency scheme owners could then be
tempted to issue excessive amounts in order to profit from the placement of these funds. A change
in views about the creditworthiness of these issuers (and the associated virtual exchange rate
variability) would threaten to undermine the role of money in providing a single unit of account as
a common financial denominator for the whole economy.

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/virtualcurrencyschemes201210en.pdf

"Would threaten" is Bankerese for "does threaten".

[franky1]

go to the source

The source is the European Central Bank.

Virtual currency schemes could lead to the emergence
of multiple units of account in the real economy. Virtual currency scheme owners could then be
tempted to issue excessive amounts in order to profit from the placement of these funds. A change
in views about the creditworthiness of these issuers (and the associated virtual exchange rate
variability) would threaten to undermine the role of money in providing a single unit of account as
a common financial denominator for the whole economy.

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/virtualcurrencyschemes201210en.pdf

"Would threaten" is Bankerese for "does threaten".

nice quote. which IN CONTEXT is about saying dumb naive FIAT exchanges saying this person should be credited wth 1 billion dollars/euros when in actual fact they only have $10, 10 euro to their name. causing the "value" of their single unit of account (FIAT) to go haywire affecting the whole FIAT economy.

causing for instance a liberty reserve dollar being worth more then a bank note dollar, which would be different Value then a bitstamp dollar, all because of the credibility of the FIAT exchanger manipulating the bank's accounting systems.

as you read the ECB report you see it does not care about second life (the game) which creates and trades lnden dollars. it only cares about the FIAT-linden exchangers. same as the other examples..

its all about the FIAT

[CompNsci]

Reading this I am still left wondering if an exchange is a money transmitter. Seems like it would be a money services business, but not necessarily a money transmitter.

[franky1]

Reading this I am still left wondering if an exchange is a money transmitter. Seems like it would be a money services business, but not necessarily a money transmitter.

simple answer logically
money= FIAT (finances insured and taxed by governments)
a money services business trades money for products and services . EG buying a bitcoin or a tin of baked beans.
a money transmitter puts and takes money from peoples bank accounts

[600watt]

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

your not a money transmitter. imagine you would only sell for dollars. that would look like a regular web shop. does a webshop need a banking license ? now you are adding other currencies. (maybe you should actually consider having your prices in some additional currencies). one of them is bitcoin. i don´t see how that would make you now a money transmitter. it is still plain e-commerce webshop. the escrow is a service, other webshops may have smiliar services. find a lawyer, get one or two expert opinions. i would not recommend asking them.  

great idea, nice website!

[atomium]

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

your not a money transmitter. imagine you would only sell for dollars. that would look like a regular web shop. does a webshop need a banking license ? now you are adding other currencies. (maybe you should actually consider having your prices in some additional currencies). one of them is bitcoin. i don´t see how that would make you now a money transmitter. it is still plain e-commerce webshop. the escrow is a service, other webshops may have smiliar services. find a lawyer, get one or two expert opinions. i would not recommend asking them.  

great idea, nice website!

I would guess we are more of a money service I presume after reading through the last posts. You are right about being a plain webshop if you take out the bitcoin aspect, we won't be considered a money transmitter. The question comes into play when this webshop starts accepting other currencies unlike other webshops that just deal with their local one, in our case bitcoin, so although we are not a money transmitter we would maybe be considered a money service. Like you said the best is to get an expert advice from a lawyer for clarification.

Thank you for the feedback about the site and my question

[franky1]

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

your not a money transmitter. imagine you would only sell for dollars. that would look like a regular web shop. does a webshop need a banking license ? now you are adding other currencies. (maybe you should actually consider having your prices in some additional currencies). one of them is bitcoin. i don´t see how that would make you now a money transmitter. it is still plain e-commerce webshop. the escrow is a service, other webshops may have smiliar services. find a lawyer, get one or two expert opinions. i would not recommend asking them.  

great idea, nice website!

I would guess we are more of a money service I presume after reading through the last posts. You are right about being a plain webshop if you take out the bitcoin aspect, we won't be considered a money transmitter. The question comes into play when this webshop starts accepting other currencies unlike other webshops that just deal with their local one, in our case bitcoin, so although we are not a money transmitter we would maybe be considered a money service. Like you said the best is to get an expert advice from a lawyer for clarification.

Thank you for the feedback about the site and my question

laywers are limited in their knowledge. speak to the financial regulators of your country.