2013-06-13 Latest from FinCEN

[justusranvier]

does this apply to miners? If so they are most definitely trying to kill bitcoin as the network security would be destroyed by such a regulation on miners.

Bitcoin will survive just fine even without any miners operating in the USA.

[cypherdoc]

Exactly... this is right out of the Nazi/Soviet Playbook.

The nice lady mentioned "exploitation of children" at least 4 separate times...
When Bitcoin has absolutely nothing to do with such evil.

US Govt: "Do whatever we say no matter how Draconian... or you favor "exploitation of children".

To be fair, it seems the event at which the speech was made was sponsored by the International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (see second sentence of the speech) so of course she was tying this in to that theme.

that's true.

[QuantPlus]

Exactly... this is right out of the Nazi/Soviet Playbook.

The nice lady mentioned "exploitation of children" at least 4 separate times...
When Bitcoin has absolutely nothing to do with such evil.

US Govt: "Do whatever we say no matter how Draconian... or you favor "exploitation of children".

To be fair, it seems the event at which the speech was made was sponsored by the International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (see second sentence of the speech) so of course she was tying this in to that theme.

You act like this was a coincidence... the entire speech was carefully staged.

As long as BTC is centered in Silicon Valley, USA...
With people like Gavin running the show...
Bitcoin is well on it's way to being neutered beyond recognition...
No wonder Satoshi quit and disappeared.

[gnarl]

overall very positive.

they just want to regulate the exchanges.

users/miners unaffected.

I read it a little differently. It sounds like they're claiming a wide territory:

Those who are intermediaries in the transfer of virtual currencies from one person to another person, or to another location, are money transmitters that must register with FinCEN as MSBs, unless an exception applies.

Sounds like the bitcoin community needs to crowd-fund and hire someone to Lobby for a Miner Exception!

Very quickly too, before they start making laws that ensure only businesses registered as MSBs can mine.

[hazek]

In my eyes very negative as it still throws around "virtual currency administrators" without clarifying who they mean. Do they mean miners? Just the pools? None? Bitcoin-Qt devs? Any devs working on any Bitcoin software? Any user selling bitcoins for fiat??

Until they clearly say they'll leave everyone except exchanges alone I see this very negative for the short term.

[interlagos]

From the beginning of the second page:

FinCEN ... reports to the Office of Terrorism ...

I know I'm hyperventilating, but I could never imagine they had the Office of Terrorism!!! Ouch! I mean should it read Anti-Terrorism?

Well, on the other hand, if you check out one of the recent threads
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=231091.0
things will start to add up.

[RoadToHell]

In my eyes very negative as it still throws around "virtual currency administrators" without clarifying who they mean. Do they mean miners? Just the pools? None? Bitcoin-Qt devs? Any devs working on any Bitcoin software? Any user selling bitcoins for fiat??

Until they clearly say they'll leave everyone except exchanges alone I see this very negative for the short term.

Bankers and economists would need a mini-course to understand the word "decentralized".

But try to make them grasp the idea of money with no administrators, well the blood's on your hands...

[EDIT]
Removed embedded graphic image, replaced with link you can view if you want...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3018/3050354749_8d2ce85f29_o.gif
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[herzmeister]

soooo is that the downplaying "ignore you" phase or the covert-cynical "laugh at you" phase or the passive aggressive "fight you" phase?

[runam0k]

Again, keep in mind the combined actions by the Department of Justice and FinCEN took down a $6 billion money laundering operation, the biggest in U.S. history.

Love the way they whoop whoop about this victory, when Standard Chartered ($250B) and HSBC ($680B) were basically too big to prosecute.

[franky1]

overall very positive.

they just want to regulate the exchanges.

users/miners unaffected.

+10

Did you guys even read it? This is a positive sign.

+10

i say this because they only care about the virtual FIAT exchanges. this does not mean mining pools have to start taking identification. this does not mean bitcoin-QT needs to have a registered usernames linked to birth certificates and such. its still all about the digital (on computer database balances of FIAT) such as mtgox/btc-e/bitstampt/vircurex/etc

remember the last fincen report

Convertible virtual currencies either have an
equivalent value in real currency or act as a substitute for real currency.

this means a digital database balance of 10.00 which represents a withdrawal equivalence of a $10 bank note. it has nothing to do with 0.09 bitcoins, 145 bunny rabbit credits, 10000 world of warcraft gold. etc.

[Rampion]

Wow, this is SO bullish you can't even imagine...

Bitcoin rising

[BitBank]

Wow, that was super interesting and positive. Clearly FinCen is not trying to kill bitcoin. Hell, they seem almost fond of the idea. 

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Office of Terrorism? Isn't that just CIA?

[suryc]

overall very positive.

they just want to regulate the exchanges.

users/miners unaffected.

I read it a little differently. It sounds like they're claiming a wide territory:

Those who are intermediaries in the transfer of virtual currencies from one person to another person, or to another location, are money transmitters that must register with FinCEN as MSBs, unless an exception applies.

Right, an intermediary, or a third party is a money transmitter.  A miner moving Bitcoin to an exchange has no middleman.  A miner purchasing goods directly from a store uses no third party.  It's the intermediary that has to register, not the miner.

Correct, this just means that miners would have to go through an exchange if they want to convert their btc to fiat. However, this seems to mean that even individuals that convert btc to fiat must register as MSB.

[edmundedgar]

Wow, that was super interesting and positive. Clearly FinCen is not trying to kill bitcoin. Hell, they seem almost fond of the idea. 

My theory is that most of the actual humans who work in financial regulation - these are smart people working in a huge, inefficient machine of byzantine rules designed for another era - totally love Bitcoin.

There's a bit in one of the P J O'Rourke books - I think it's Parliament of Whores - when he talks about going to meet the motor vehicle regulators and finding they all loved to tinker with cars, and feeling like he'd gone to the DEA and found them making bongs. I bet loads of people in FinCen and other financial regulators hold Bitcoins, and a lot more think it's awesome.

[TheKoziTwo]

Those who are intermediaries in the transfer of virtual currencies from one person to another person, or to another location, are money transmitters that must register with FinCEN as MSBs, unless an exception applies.

Pretty depressing really.

Liberty Reserve operated as an online money transmitter deliberately designed to avoid regulatory scrutiny and tailored its services to illicit actors looking to launder their ill gotten gains.

According to the allegations contained in a related criminal action brought by the U.S. Department of Justice, those illicit actors included criminal organizations engaged in credit card fraud, identity theft, investment fraud, computer hacking, narcotics trafficking, and most relevant for today’s purposes, child pornography.
The action taken by FinCEN was designed to protect the financial system from the risk posed by Liberty Reserve an online, virtual currency, money transfer system that was conceived and operated specifically to allow and encourage illicit use because of the anonymity it offers.

They could replace "Liberty Reserve" with "Bitcoin" and it would still be just as accurate, more so actually.

I recently heard a banker say that there is a reason that financial institutions have to obtain licenses. It is a great bestowal of trust that enables banks to be part of the U.S. financial system, to be part of the global financial system.

Yeah... "A great bestowal of trust". It has nothing to do with preventing competition. no no.

The saddest thing about this entire document is that they never mentioned that foreign companies / individuals are exempt as long as they do not deal with US.

Guess nobody is really exempt from the almighty world police of USSA.

I would like to close with a challenge to our great innovators: extend your focus to devising creative solutions for preventing the abuse of virtual currencies by criminals, such as those who would exploit children

The "think of the children" card, honestly, it's getting kind of old.

We all stand to benefit from such innovation, and the related transparency and integrity to our financial system

Oh, the sweet sweet irony.

[interlagos]

Office of Terrorism? Isn't that just CIA?

LOL

Here is my theory (it was revealed to me in a dream). They want to amass more bitcoins via market manipulation err regulation so that they can fund more terrorism (through the Office of Terrorism of course) so that they can in turn push for more regulation. In the mean time they want complete records of MtGox database so that they can track down large bitcoin holders around the world and extort their bitcoins by fabricating fake sex charges against them (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hl4NlA97GeQ at 5:07). In order to achieve their ends they pretend to look as friendly as possible and all wear smiley shirts (google George Carlin smiley shirts, http://youtube.com/watch?v=eWhdDypWJPs at 5:50).

[Micky25]

However, I would like to close with a challenge to our great innovators: extend your focus to devising creative solutions for preventing the abuse of virtual currencies by criminals, such as those who would exploit children. We all stand to benefit from such innovation, and the related transparency and integrity to our financial system.

this is warspeak. The translation is:

Make us a proposal about the conditions of your surrender.

[franky1]

translation is get rid of tin foil hats and chinese whispers. read the regulations about FIAT and realise they can only control the FIAT. so get regulated if you are touching FIAT.

bitcoin unaffected, pools unaffected bitcoin-QT unaffected.

just those innovative teentrepreneurs (teenage amateur entrepreneurs)wanting to exchange fiat for other currencies GET REGULATED.

thier defineition of virtual currency is the difital database balance which resemble FIAT. such as 10.00 which can be cashed out as $10 bank note.. not facebook credits. world of warcraft gold, linden's, bitcoin, litecoin.

so chill out guys gavin andressen has no plans to make logging into bitcoin-qt a manditory registration process involving birth certificates. neither do any of the pools or merchants accepting bitcoin.

just the bitcoin-fiat exchanges.

[Micky25]

translation is get rid of tin foil hats and chinese whispers. read the regulations about FIAT and realise they can only control the FIAT. so get regulated if you are touching FIAT.

bitcoin unaffected, pools unaffected bitcoin-QT unaffected.
....cut

I totally agree with you on this, but the value can't be kept crypto/virtual forever. Merchants have to pay their bills, Miners their energy and so on.