[Closed] Black Arrow's Avalon

[k9quaint]

I don't. He made a fortune with his Avalon already.

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Many will feel this way in the near future. That much is certain

His Avalon is still cranking out $5K a month.  That is not too shabby.
It just won't do that for very long. Certainly not long enough to spend $25,000 on buying another one.

[SolarSilver]

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?

Great advice!

[shapemaker]

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?

Great advice!

Ka-CHING! We have a winner!

Quoting for posterity too. See, blackarrow, you just outed yourself there

[PuertoLibre]

I don't. He made a fortune with his Avalon already.

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Pissed? Is that it?

It wouldn't be because you are trying to make a fortune by selling avalon clones which may not even cost you 1,300USD to produce as a clone manufacturer?

42 clones right? @ 7600 USD = 319,200 dollars...for 42 clones.

At todays rate it would be about 3192 BTC.

-------------------------

All this sold to your potential "customers" as a profitable upgrades....except it isn't.

Do I have a reason to be as upset as you who...rather than lower your prices...end up apparently throwing your toys out of the pram and shut down your venture? Did you even try to negotiate?

Reading the OP, it looks like you weren't satisfied with 7600 as it was your absolute baseline price. Instead, you were fishing for an even higher price...what the market will bear (in apparent ignorance).

-------------------------

What I would love to hear from you is a straightforward statement that you were absolutely shocked...even surprised...to learn that the unit you were selling @ the price point above were going to be absolutely unprofitable. Surely you didn't know this...until just now....

So far one clone manufacturer (HashTech) has (extremely recently) changed their pre-order policy for their clones. 1 BTC as a down payment and lowered their 12.99 BTC price per module to 8.99 BTC. Just a little over a 30% reduction. That includes the PDU and a control unit.

That means HashTech (as one example) will (if the community likes it) receive customers if the price is viable to miners. While you (Black Arrow) apparently won't be offering clones to the community at a "useful price point".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228492.msg2483687#msg2483687

[CoinHoarder]

Well said Puerto.

Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.

But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.

[turtle83]

Well said Puerto.

Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.

But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.

That sounds very socialist. I don't see anything wrong in selling products at prices customers are willing to pay... Perfectly good business. Nobody is putting a gun to anyones head and forcing them to buy at ridiculous prices.

Whats really wrong is lying about shipping dates(BFL style) or product specifications.

Whats borderline wrong is lying about ROI. Anyone with half a brain can do their own calculations and decide if they want it or not.

[CoinHoarder]

Well said Puerto.

Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.

But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.

That sounds very socialist. I don't see anything wrong in selling products at prices customers are willing to pay... Perfectly good business. Nobody is putting a gun to anyones head and forcing them to buy at ridiculous prices.

Whats really wrong is lying about shipping dates(BFL style) or product specifications.

Whats borderline wrong is lying about ROI. Anyone with half a brain can do their own calculations and decide if they want it or not.

My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections. They are screwing their customers to make a boatload of money, under the pretense that the customer is going to make all this money from their magic money printing machines.

They know damn well what they're doing and that these devices will most likely never break even, but they just don't care. You think that is ethical?

It's akin to a scammer selling an investment to a senile old person that they know will not be profitable venture, but they try to sell it to the old person anyways because the old person is more likely to buy it than a rational human being. Meanwhile they make a lot of money, but their investors are screwed from the get-go. Again, you think this is ethical?

[shapemaker]

My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections. They are screwing their customers to make a boatload of money, under the pretense that the customer is going to make all this money from their magic money printing machines.

They know damn well what they're doing and that these devices will most likely never break even, but they just don't care. You think that is ethical?

It's akin to a scammer selling an investment to a senile old person that they know will not be profitable venture, but they try to sell it to the old person anyways because the old person is more likely to buy it than a rational human being. Meanwhile they make a lot of money, but their investors are screwed from the get-go. Again, you think this is ethical?

This is exactly what I've been saying about Asicminer. Well put though, same thing applies here.

[turtle83]

Well said Puerto.

Too many custom hardware manufacturers are squeezing all the profit out of mining. They need to leave some meat on the bone for customers, otherwise they won't be in business much longer. Only idiots are overpaying for hardware right now, the idiots will run out sooner or later.

But then again, you are preaching to Blackarrow whom has been selling FPGAs for months now that will most likely never break even as well, so I suppose he really just doesn't care that he is screwing his customers. As long as he makes money, then all is good I suppose... too many people thinking like that nowadays... share the wealth IMO. These manufacturers can still sell at attractive prices and still make a boatload of money, the problem is they want a boatload and a half.

That sounds very socialist. I don't see anything wrong in selling products at prices customers are willing to pay... Perfectly good business. Nobody is putting a gun to anyones head and forcing them to buy at ridiculous prices.

Whats really wrong is lying about shipping dates(BFL style) or product specifications.

Whats borderline wrong is lying about ROI. Anyone with half a brain can do their own calculations and decide if they want it or not.

My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections.

They are screwing their customers to make a boatload of money, under the pretense that the customer is going to make all this money from their magic money printing machines.

They know damn well what they're doing and that these devices will most likely never break even, but they just don't care. You think that is ethical?

It's akin to a scammer selling an investment to a senile old person that they know will not be profitable venture, but they try to sell it to the old person anyways because the old person is more likely to buy it than a rational human being. Meanwhile they make a lot of money, but their investors are screwed from the get-go. Again, you think this is ethical?

Mis-representing ROI is unethical.

Assume "magic miner" does 65 GH/s.

"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. You can pay your mortgage and buy a yatch. Buy buy!" - Scammer tag
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. You can make 127.6 BTC in 2 months. Buy buy!" - Evil
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. You can make 127.6 BTC in 2 months at current difficulty. Buy buy!" - Borderline evil. Buyer now has a hint to study about difficulty. If someone is buying something for investment purpose, its their responsibility to study these things.
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. It does 65 GH/s for sha256 based coins. Buy buy!" - Perfectly good business.
"Buy our magic miner @100 BTC. It does 65 GH/s for sha256 based coins. It will make ROI in x months based on <insert long math formula, etc> difficulty calculation by <insert name of someone well respected in community>" - Perfectly good business.

Are we on same page?

[CoinHoarder]

Turtle83:

Our definition of ethical is different I suppose, I'll just leave it at that..

[shapemaker]

Whats borderline wrong is lying about ROI. Anyone with half a brain can do their own calculations and decide if they want it or not.

My problem is they are making money off of stupid people (or inexperienced people) that don't do profit calculations and network speed projections.

Mis-representing ROI is unethical.
[...]
Are we on same page?

Looks like you're both saying the same thing in different words...

[PuertoLibre]

No,

Good [and ethical] business is where you sell a product that you can profit from [AND] profits society in some way.

Be it a 40 ton earthmover or a bucket that moves water like it is supposed to.

-------------------------

Making a profit by selling a product that won't do what the customer originally intends to do with it is at worst a scam. At best, a bad business practice and a bad buy.

[Rampion]

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?

Great advice!

This.

[dan99]

 

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?

Great advice!

This.

 

[blackarrow]

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?

Great advice!

I am pointing out that the days when bitcoins were pouring from mining into peoples pockets are over. Everyone should just adjust to this.

[blackarrow]

I don't. He made a fortune with his Avalon already.

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Pissed? Is that it?

It wouldn't be because you are trying to make a fortune by selling avalon clones which may not even cost you 1,300USD to produce as a clone manufacturer?

42 clones right? @ 7600 USD = 319,200 dollars...for 42 clones.

At todays rate it would be about 3192 BTC.

-------------------------

All this sold to your potential "customers" as a profitable upgrades....except it isn't.

Do I have a reason to be as upset as you who...rather than lower your prices...end up apparently throwing your toys out of the pram and shut down your venture? Did you even try to negotiate?

Reading the OP, it looks like you weren't satisfied with 7600 as it was your absolute baseline price. Instead, you were fishing for an even higher price...what the market will bear (in apparent ignorance).

-------------------------

What I would love to hear from you is a straightforward statement that you were absolutely shocked...even surprised...to learn that the unit you were selling @ the price point above were going to be absolutely unprofitable. Surely you didn't know this...until just now....

So far one clone manufacturer (HashTech) has (extremely recently) changed their pre-order policy for their clones. 1 BTC as a down payment and lowered their 12.99 BTC price per module to 8.99 BTC. Just a little over a 30% reduction. That includes the PDU and a control unit.

That means HashTech (as one example) will (if the community likes it) receive customers if the price is viable to miners. While you (Black Arrow) apparently won't be offering clones to the community at a "useful price point".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228492.msg2483687#msg2483687

You are obviously not in hardware business and you are obviously unaware of the prices involved in running one. Also you are unaware of the cost of manufacturing an Avalon.
FYI we did not threw our toys nor shut down our venture we just came to the conclusion that it is more profitable to mine with the Avalon clones ourselves than making a profit by selling them to customers.

Simple as this.

[Rampion]

This is what you have with ASIC.

You either mine yourself, or you sell the hardware at more than you will get by mining. Doing otherwise has no sense from a business perspective.

The only way for customers to be offered competitively priced units that allow ROI is to be "investors" when the manufacturer hasnt got the funds and needs to gather money through preorders. If the vendor has the money to develop the units by himself, he would either mine or sell them for more than those machine will mine. It's pure logic.

Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does not exist, and will never exist.

[PuertoLibre]

He's pissed because he's not making a fortune anymore.

Did you just post the primary reason why people should not shell out over BTC 100 for a 70 GHs ASIC to be delivered in September?

Great advice!

I am pointing out that the days when bitcoins were pouring from mining into peoples pockets are over. Everyone should just adjust to this.

Thats probably the dumbest thing I have seen today.

If your clone won't produce a profit at your particular price point, then you are the one who has to adjust your prices. Period.

[Xialla]

Guys, ASIC mining is a very special beast by itself. The company that offers to their customers immediately available money printing machines that guarantee ROI does no exist, and will never exist.

one of the best statements, that I ever read on this forum. (ironically)

[markm]

It is pretty much normal that a business not turn a profit for the first couple of years isn't it?

So even if your mining gear won't pay for itself for a couple of years that is still maybe a reasonable deal from a normal business viewpoint?

If your equipment has paid for itself a couple of years down the road but still works, isn't that actually pretty darn good?

-MarkM-