Goliath Miner

[RoadStress]

Ultimately if you don't like our price then go elsewhere or design your own. There is no obligation to buy.

Will do   

+1

We don't say "OMG OP" for any other reason than to help you. We are potential customers saying, if you dont lower price, we wont purchase. You can listen or not, but companies pay big bucks to here why people aren't buying.

I could put this in context that as far as I understand batch3 from Avalon are charging 75 BTC for 66GH/s in their batch3 which I believe is running late and no ETA. On todays conversion that is about £73/GH/s so is that so very different from our £80/GH/s? If it doesn't sell we will simply put it into our own mining operation.

We are also not going to try and compete with manufacturers that have little or no standing cost base and might not be around in 3 months when you have a problem.

I might also speculate that BFL has problems because they charged too little for their miners and their 2.5X recent-ish price rise is an indicator of that. Avalon too have also raised prices through batch 1 to 3 presumably for similar reasons. We have been in business now for 24 years and I am look forward to celebrating 25 still in reasonable financial health and that means charging realistic prices as far as we are concerned.

Good for you!

But I'm still scratching my head at your targeting the retail market with such a product.

Maybe there are some potential clients from his customer base that aren't so aware of the other bitcoin mining hardware.  Why don't you just let him be? Let him sell 1Ghash for 1 mil $. If he finds customers then his win, if not then his loss. Not yours.

[KS]

Ultimately if you don't like our price then go elsewhere or design your own. There is no obligation to buy.

Will do    

+1

We don't say "OMG OP" for any other reason than to help you. We are potential customers saying, if you dont lower price, we wont purchase. You can listen or not, but companies pay big bucks to here why people aren't buying.

I could put this in context that as far as I understand batch3 from Avalon are charging 75 BTC for 66GH/s in their batch3 which I believe is running late and no ETA. On todays conversion that is about £73/GH/s so is that so very different from our £80/GH/s? If it doesn't sell we will simply put it into our own mining operation.

We are also not going to try and compete with manufacturers that have little or no standing cost base and might not be around in 3 months when you have a problem.

I might also speculate that BFL has problems because they charged too little for their miners and their 2.5X recent-ish price rise is an indicator of that. Avalon too have also raised prices through batch 1 to 3 presumably for similar reasons. We have been in business now for 24 years and I am look forward to celebrating 25 still in reasonable financial health and that means charging realistic prices as far as we are concerned.

Good for you!

But I'm still scratching my head at your targeting the retail market with such a product.

Maybe there are some potential clients from his customer base that aren't so aware of the other bitcoin mining hardware.  Why don't you just let him be? Let him sell 1Ghash for 1 mil $. If he finds customers then his win, if not then his loss. Not yours.

That's because I find his product interesting but it doesn't fit into a professional setting. His design is close enough (IMO) that it could be adapted to serve both markets. Win-win. I get to fit that in my business plan and he finds more customers without losing his current base.

[dodegkr]

+1

[Syke]

I could put this in context that as far as I understand batch3 from Avalon are charging 75 BTC for 66GH/s in their batch3 which I believe is running late and no ETA. On todays conversion that is about £73/GH/s so is that so very different from our £80/GH/s?

Avalon batch3 will arrive long before your device. Therefore your device is worth much less than the Avalon pre-order.

75 BTC several months ago had a great chance at decent ROI. 75 BTC now for a device several months from now is questionable whether it will ever break even.

[dodegkr]

last time i checked august was a few weeks away

[yohan]

I could put this in context that as far as I understand batch3 from Avalon are charging 75 BTC for 66GH/s in their batch3 which I believe is running late and no ETA. On todays conversion that is about £73/GH/s so is that so very different from our £80/GH/s?

Avalon batch3 will arrive long before your device. Therefore your device is worth much less than the Avalon pre-order.

75 BTC several months ago had a great chance at decent ROI. 75 BTC now for a device several months from now is questionable whether it will ever break even.

That is only if it arrives before August of course and in one piece. So far we have always pretty much kept our delivery promises and not slipped 3 months or as some suppliers nearly 1 year on delivering a promised product. We have set our prices and if people don't like them they don't buy. That actually doesn't matter as we can probably make more out adding anything spare from this build into our mining rig than straight selling kit so for us it is as simple as that.

[dex1]

Just to get the figures right...

The pricing model for any of these systems will be based a price of GBP £80 per GH/s. So 300 GH/s rig will be E24K. For the Avalon option there will be a cost reduction for chips supplied.

So, to sum it up, a CM4 unit:

- costs 24 thousand € / 350 BTCs
- uses 6kW of power
- can do 500 GH/s

Is it right?

If so, at a difficulty of 75 millions, such a unit would produce 3.5 BTCs/day for a ROI of three months more or less.

6kW of power, though, is a lot of power and puts it in the same league of the Avalon where ten units use that much and are capable of 700 GH/s.


spiccioli

I belive there is a typo in OP. As the price is £80 per GH/s so 300 GH/s makes it £24000 (GBP and not EUR).

Also please bear in mind yohan's answer for crazyearner's question:

Q3 About Prices Is this including shipping and also tax or is this excluding tax GBP price and shipping?

Shipping and tax are extra.

So you are looking at 28800 GBP=33903 EUR=45227 USD plus shipping costs on top of it.

I used to be CM1 user, which device I hold in high esteem because it was reliable and affordable but obviously Enterpoint's policy
has changed since:

It isn't for small miners (sorry little guys) although we may offer something smaller later in the year for that market with a revision of Cairnsmore2 that we have been using for algorythm development.

Conclusions: Although the hardware may prove to be an ingenious and first-rate piece of mining equipment the price is
undoubtedly going to deter thousands of miners.

[Schrankwand]

Costs can be argued about what is good or bad. I have not been following other Avalon based designs in any depth so anything I say is based on limited knowledge. I think the Burnin boards are using a USB interface and that is one we wanted to get away from. It's not great for a big design as we found out with CM1. When you get to 256 COM ports you are stuffed in Windows and maybe Linux too. The CM3 design will have a controller running Linux and miner software so doesn't need a host as such with those issues. We do have a USB interface but that is for special cases or maintainance.

USB on the surface, however they use 16 Board CAN-Bus connection to circumvent using 10.000 COM ports

The Avalon Units themselves did the same, by the way. You adressed them via Ethernet and then just let them run at the pool of your choice.

I could put this in context that as far as I understand batch3 from Avalon are charging 75 BTC for 66GH/s in their batch3 which I believe is running late and no ETA. On todays conversion that is about £73/GH/s so is that so very different from our £80/GH/s? If it doesn't sell we will simply put it into our own mining operation.

At current price, yes. Avalon's original pricing was planned to allow 30 day break even at the point of sale. As a business, I think 60-90 days estimated break even are more cost conservative.

We are also not going to try and compete with manufacturers that have little or no standing cost base and might not be around in 3 months when you have a problem.

If you are trying to do that, I guess you are creating your own chips. That is going to work out, I think.

I might also speculate that BFL has problems because they charged too little for their miners and their 2.5X recent-ish price rise is an indicator of that. Avalon too have also raised prices through batch 1 to 3 presumably for similar reasons. We have been in business now for 24 years and I am look forward to celebrating 25 still in reasonable financial health and that means charging realistic prices as far as we are concerned.

Nah, its probably worse than that. They probably messed up a lot of things early on and manufactured and sold like crazy, built boards and cases before testing their prototypes. Backfired a lot, as we all saw

[yohan]

Costs can be argued about what is good or bad. I have not been following other Avalon based designs in any depth so anything I say is based on limited knowledge. I think the Burnin boards are using a USB interface and that is one we wanted to get away from. It's not great for a big design as we found out with CM1. When you get to 256 COM ports you are stuffed in Windows and maybe Linux too. The CM3 design will have a controller running Linux and miner software so doesn't need a host as such with those issues. We do have a USB interface but that is for special cases or maintainance.

USB on the surface, however they use 16 Board CAN-Bus connection to circumvent using 10.000 COM ports

The Avalon Units themselves did the same, by the way. You adressed them via Ethernet and then just let them run at the pool of your choice.

I could put this in context that as far as I understand batch3 from Avalon are charging 75 BTC for 66GH/s in their batch3 which I believe is running late and no ETA. On todays conversion that is about £73/GH/s so is that so very different from our £80/GH/s? If it doesn't sell we will simply put it into our own mining operation.

At current price, yes. Avalon's original pricing was planned to allow 30 day break even at the point of sale. As a business, I think 60-90 days estimated break even are more cost conservative.

We are also not going to try and compete with manufacturers that have little or no standing cost base and might not be around in 3 months when you have a problem.

If you are trying to do that, I guess you are creating your own chips. That is going to work out, I think.

I might also speculate that BFL has problems because they charged too little for their miners and their 2.5X recent-ish price rise is an indicator of that. Avalon too have also raised prices through batch 1 to 3 presumably for similar reasons. We have been in business now for 24 years and I am look forward to celebrating 25 still in reasonable financial health and that means charging realistic prices as far as we are concerned.

Nah, its probably worse than that. They probably messed up a lot of things early on and manufactured and sold like crazy, built boards and cases before testing their prototypes. Backfired a lot, as we all saw

BFL do kind of have a desperate look these days. Look's like dutch auction time to me.

[tigerbit]

BFL do kind of have a desperate look these days. Look's like dutch auction time to me.

Ha ha.  Not tempted to cash in on that desperation?   No chip orders in the pipeline for yohan? 

When can we expect to learn that CM5 is based on BFL ASICs? 

In the now trademarked "just two more weeks"?   

[Milan77]

While you are arguing about who's will be bigger I am considering this as a possible investment.
Specially FPGA one.

[yohan]

BFL do kind of have a desperate look these days. Look's like dutch auction time to me.

Ha ha.  Not tempted to cash in on that desperation?   No chip orders in the pipeline for yohan? 

When can we expect to learn that CM5 is based on BFL ASICs? 

In the now trademarked "just two more weeks"?   

They are not desperate enough yet. We have different things in mind for CM5 and CM6 and more on that when we are ready. They might make the CM7 slot but there is serious competition for that position.

[Clearfly]

Sorry but i think you've just priced yourself out of the market.

I pre-ordered in march from BFL @ ~ $25/GH
Even now their 500GH Minirig is @ ~ $50/GH

KNCMiner's Jupiter 350GH works out @ ~ $20/GH

You're essentially offering PCB design service and using Avalon Chips for ~ $125/GH

I was holding out to invest in CM3/4 but your current pricing model is way out.

[KS]

Sorry but i think you've just priced yourself out of the market.

I pre-ordered in march from BFL @ ~ $25/GH
Even now their 500GH Minirig is @ ~ $50/GH

KNCMiner's Jupiter 350GH works out @ ~ $20/GH

You're essentially offering PCB design service and using Avalon Chips for ~ $125/GH

I was holding out to invest in CM3/4 but your current pricing model is way out.

...but which one has an August 2013 delivery date?

[yohan]

Sorry but i think you've just priced yourself out of the market.

I pre-ordered in march from BFL @ ~ $25/GH
Even now their 500GH Minirig is @ ~ $50/GH

KNCMiner's Jupiter 350GH works out @ ~ $20/GH

You're essentially offering PCB design service and using Avalon Chips for ~ $125/GH

I was holding out to invest in CM3/4 but your current pricing model is way out.

...but which one has an August 2013 delivery date?

Exactly CM4 will be there August.

[crazyearner]

Hello again Yohan. I would like if poss if you can answer some questions in pm as I am almost ready to get an order together however I have a few private questions. At this time that the best way. As I have emailed yet to receive response? And also about to pm you with some private questions.

[Clearfly]

Sorry but i think you've just priced yourself out of the market.

I pre-ordered in march from BFL @ ~ $25/GH
Even now their 500GH Minirig is @ ~ $50/GH

KNCMiner's Jupiter 350GH works out @ ~ $20/GH

You're essentially offering PCB design service and using Avalon Chips for ~ $125/GH

I was holding out to invest in CM3/4 but your current pricing model is way out.

...but which one has an August 2013 delivery date?

Exactly CM4 will be there August.

So, the ROI on CM4 is still at least 5-6 months before you start to see a profit.
My BFL order will be with me August/September and making profit in less than 1 month.
If KNC deliver in September/October they will be profitable within 6-8 weeks (still some 2-3 months before the CM4 turns a profit)

Whilst i believe enterpoint have the competency to pull it off anything above $70-75/GH makes zero economic sense just for the privelage of having the gear sooner. (very same reason i won't invest in Erupter blades)

[yohan]

Hello again Yohan. I would like if poss if you can answer some questions in pm as I am almost ready to get an order together however I have a few private questions. At this time that the best way. As I have emailed yet to receive response? And also about to pm you with some private questions.

Email is usually the fastest as I don't sit all the time looking at the forum.

[KS]

Sorry but i think you've just priced yourself out of the market.

I pre-ordered in march from BFL @ ~ $25/GH
Even now their 500GH Minirig is @ ~ $50/GH

KNCMiner's Jupiter 350GH works out @ ~ $20/GH

You're essentially offering PCB design service and using Avalon Chips for ~ $125/GH

I was holding out to invest in CM3/4 but your current pricing model is way out.

...but which one has an August 2013 delivery date?

Exactly CM4 will be there August.

So, the ROI on CM4 is still at least 5-6 months before you start to see a profit.
My BFL order will be with me August/September and making profit in less than 1 month.
If KNC deliver in September/October they will be profitable within 6-8 weeks (still some 2-3 months before the CM4 turns a profit)

Whilst i believe enterpoint have the competency to pull it off anything above $70-75/GH makes zero economic sense just for the privelage of having the gear sooner. (very same reason i won't invest in Erupter blades)

I think you will be disappointed by both BFL and KNCMINER. I can't say whether BFL will deliver YOUR miner then, but I can very much guarantee that the KNCMINER miners will not ROI in the timeframe you stated. Difficulty looks likely to go up another 10 or 15x (15x would coincide with the KNCMINER introduction).

[crazyearner]

Sorry but i think you've just priced yourself out of the market.

I pre-ordered in march from BFL @ ~ $25/GH
Even now their 500GH Minirig is @ ~ $50/GH

KNCMiner's Jupiter 350GH works out @ ~ $20/GH

You're essentially offering PCB design service and using Avalon Chips for ~ $125/GH

I was holding out to invest in CM3/4 but your current pricing model is way out.

...but which one has an August 2013 delivery date?

Exactly CM4 will be there August.

So, the ROI on CM4 is still at least 5-6 months before you start to see a profit.
My BFL order will be with me August/September and making profit in less than 1 month.
If KNC deliver in September/October they will be profitable within 6-8 weeks (still some 2-3 months before the CM4 turns a profit)

Whilst i believe enterpoint have the competency to pull it off anything above $70-75/GH makes zero economic sense just for the privelage of having the gear sooner. (very same reason i won't invest in Erupter blades)

I think you will be disappointed by both BFL and KNCMINER. I can't say whether BFL will deliver YOUR miner then, but I can very much guarantee that the KNCMINER miners will not ROI in the timeframe you stated. Difficulty looks likely to go up another 10 or 15x (15x would coincide with the KNCMINER introduction).

I couldn't care for BFL or KNC miner. BFL let many people down including me I placed orders 3 times each of cancelled and got my money back. And now when trying to speak to their customer services using different email or old emails they are non responsive and also KNC Miner they have not been around for almost 2 weeks and someone posted details that maybe looking to be yet another scam.

Am happy that Enterpoint are doing what they are doing and I am looking forward to their updates in next few days. I will wait for yohan to update than to spoil the surprise