BitSyncom, will all the chip orders ship together?

[Rampion]

If I were to order 10,000 chips today, will they be shipped 2 months after the people who ordered on April 20th? Or 2 weeks? Or 2 days?

What I understand is, you are getting the chips made from the foundry in one giant order. And why wouldn't you? The bigger the order, the cheaper per chip you would have to pay.

Please answer this question. I am sure if there is not much difference between the shipment time, you will receive as many more orders as you have already received! I for sure will be ordering right away.

Thank you!

BitSyncom, Why are you not answering the above question? I think it is an important question, one that everyone who has purchased chips would like the answer to. We  (your chip buyers) have given you millions of US$ in BTC. Don't you think we deserve an answer (one that does not need some secret decoder ring)?

He just said that chip orders are placed every week.

So no, they are not getting the chips "in one giant order". If you ordered on April, 16th, you get the chips at the beginning of July. If you order now, probably end of August, beginning of September.

@Vycid: I would never answer you about what I do with MY money. Funny thing about Bitcoin, anybody can scrutinize your financials. You could ask as many questions you want, but I would never tell you how many of my BTC I convert to fiat, when or how.

[gill83]

He just said that chip orders are placed every week.
 

Just because he said it, doesn't mean its true. Unless he shows some evidence, I don't believe him. Avalon is the last company I would ever invest in.

[Rampion]

He just said that chip orders are placed every week.
 

Just because he said it, doesn't mean its true. Unless he shows some evidence, I don't believe him. Avalon is the last company I would ever invest in.

OK, then you took your decision, time to move on.

[gill83]

He just said that chip orders are placed every week.
 

Just because he said it, doesn't mean its true. Unless he shows some evidence, I don't believe him. Avalon is the last company I would ever invest in.

OK, then you took your decision, time to move on.

Stop worshipping him like a God. His company should be scrutinized for illegal practices.

[pajak666]

If he wan't to be really fair with his customers he should offer PARTIAL refund, to the amount where those units should be break even in promised time.
You wait or you get your money back is simply unfair.
They have been handling almost 100 btc * 600 units for few months.
that is roughly 6 000 000 us dollars.
Now he claims that he can pay it back? so what!
Where are penalty intrest rates? what is this? I don't even...

[Rampion]

If he wan't to be really fair with his customers he should offer PARTIAL refund, to the amount where those units should be break even in promised time.
You wait or you get your money back is simply unfair.
They have been handling almost 100 btc * 600 units for few months.
that is roughly 6 000 000 us dollars.
Now he claims that he can pay it back? so what!
Where are penalty intrest rates? what is this? I don't even...

Well, if they offered a PARTIAL refund that would be super nice. It would be great news for all of us that bought batch #3 units, and it would trigger a lot of cheering and praising to Avalon. But, I don't see how they are obliged to do that. A full refund is pretty fair and easier for them: you either wait for your unit or you get all your money back. At least they priced their unit in BTC and they will give a full BTC refund - we cannot say the same of that other company called BFL.

[pajak666]

when you take a quick look at yifu's post when they were developing batch #1, you notice he says:
"committed date" is the promised date of delivery, it is very unusual for TSMC to break their "committed date", so we expect our chips to ship on or before Jan 10th, 2013"
check it here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120184.msg1294431#msg1294431

What wonders me most is the fact that they were able to produce first 300 units priced at 1200$ in few months and somehow next few months they can not deliver batch #3 units, 600 pieces worth 10x much, they were priced TEN TIMES MORE plus they had already working technology, so what could possibly go bad?
Imo Yifu screwed us all over, he is just posing for nice guy.
And this full refund policy is just slap in the face.
They should make an announcement.

Bitsyncom is willing to thank you for founding our new facility, we are ready to announce that we have already mined so much with batch #2 customers that we don't even need to sell those overpriced units from batch #3 so we can give you FULL refund (cool huh?), we have finished our facility therefore we don't need this money from batch #3 no more. As for delays, you know how it goes, when it was batch #1 with limited ammount of monies and small orders of needed parts things went SMOOTH AND EASY, but you know how things are going, once you want to order more parts they treat you less serious and it's harder to make business (WTF!)
We have mined so much already with your units that we can give you full refund

[ProfMac]

Yifu, you have claimed now and again that you don't control that address. Why don't you be more transparent about your business and come forth with a better explanation. Who controls that address? Can you prove that you don't control that address? Why should we believe you when you say that you don't control that address?

How can I prove that I don't control that address?

[SebastianJu]

Refunding only means risk offloading to Yifu. Only because someone thinks he has to buy KNCMiner now Yifu couldnt do business this way when everyone jumps in and out how he likes.
The contract was clearly to deliver the chips in a certain time. Thats not even broken.

[Xialla]

Refunding only means risk offloading to Yifu. Only because someone thinks he has to buy KNCMiner now Yifu couldnt do business this way when everyone jumps in and out how he likes.
The contract was clearly to deliver the chips in a certain time. Thats not even broken.

meeh, maybe I'm wrong, but lets make little math here.

"The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale" (see point 5)

http://store.avalon-asics.com/?page_id=9605

so it means lead time 63-70 days from date, when order was placed

as far as I know, first zefir batch was ordered 16/4:

#9725    April 16, 2013    Chips ordered    ฿782.10 for 1 item

April: 14 to end of April
May: 31 whole May
June: 24 this moth

14+31+24 = 69 so zefir and guys from first batch of his preorder will receive chips tomorrow?.)

[Flying Hellfish]

Refunding only means risk offloading to Yifu. Only because someone thinks he has to buy KNCMiner now Yifu couldnt do business this way when everyone jumps in and out how he likes.
The contract was clearly to deliver the chips in a certain time. Thats not even broken.

meeh, maybe I'm wrong, but lets make little math here.

"The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale" (see point 5)

http://store.avalon-asics.com/?page_id=9605

so it means lead time 63-70 days from date, when order was placed

as far as I know, first zefir batch was ordered 16/4:

#9725    April 16, 2013    Chips ordered    ฿782.10 for 1 item

April: 14 to end of April
May: 31 whole May
June: 24 this moth

14+31+24 = 69 so zefir and guys from first batch of his preorder will receive chips tomorrow?.)

Unfortunately you may not have read the clause literally.
They say: 5.the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,
What they don't say is when the lead time actually starts, technically (and if I have learned one thing here recently its that you need to take every statement literally!).

Guess if they wanted to they could technically deliver them in a couple of years and not breach the no bull shit terms LOL!

[SebastianJu]

Refunding only means risk offloading to Yifu. Only because someone thinks he has to buy KNCMiner now Yifu couldnt do business this way when everyone jumps in and out how he likes.
The contract was clearly to deliver the chips in a certain time. Thats not even broken.

meeh, maybe I'm wrong, but lets make little math here.

"The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale" (see point 5)

http://store.avalon-asics.com/?page_id=9605

so it means lead time 63-70 days from date, when order was placed

as far as I know, first zefir batch was ordered 16/4:

#9725    April 16, 2013    Chips ordered    ฿782.10 for 1 item

April: 14 to end of April
May: 31 whole May
June: 24 this moth

14+31+24 = 69 so zefir and guys from first batch of his preorder will receive chips tomorrow?.)

Yes... one day left... But i dont think that it will be delivered tomorrow. At least when i got Yifu on the phone 2 weeks ago he spoke like the chips wont arrive anytime soon at his company branch in china.

[Xialla]

Unfortunately you may not have read the clause literally.

well, I think that if you order something for ~90k $, you can read the clause literally.) (here in Europe)

[pajak666]

Same shit as with BFL, Avalon team probably noticed that there was no lawsuit against BFL so they realised they are totally free with what they are doing and how they treat they customers.

Srsly one big lawsuit and suddenly there would be no preorders and bullshit terms of sale from other companies, just in stock ready to ship products.

[Rampion]

Same shit as with BFL, Avalon team probably noticed that there was no lawsuit against BFL so they realised they are totally free with what they are doing and how they treat they customers.

Srsly one big lawsuit and suddenly there would be no preorders and bullshit terms of sale from other companies, just in stock ready to ship products.

Or maybe they would just mine themselves to then sell the units at a price that doesn't allow ROI. ASIC have nothing to do with GPUs or FPGAs, it's a tricky game, nobody is going to sell you money-printing machines at a price that allow you to easily achieve ROI. Why should any company do that? If they invest their own money to develop the hardware they will maximize their profit, and in this case maximizing profit means a) you mine yourself or b) you sell the units for more BTC they will likely generate in all their life span. The only way you need to offer a good ROI to your customers in the ASIC game is if you need their money for the development beforehand.

BTW, I don't know if you were an Avalon batch #1 customer, I seriously doubt it, because if you were you would know that the ROI those batch #1 Avalon returned is insane. The guy that took the gamble to buy 10 or more of them, is now FILTHY rich.

That wouldn't have been possible without pre-orders, crowd-funding, or call it as you wish.

[Bitcoinorama]

Same shit as with BFL, Avalon team probably noticed that there was no lawsuit against BFL so they realised they are totally free with what they are doing and how they treat they customers.

Srsly one big lawsuit and suddenly there would be no preorders and bullshit terms of sale from other companies, just in stock ready to ship products.

Yeah, you obviously have no idea about what 'non-reoccurring engineering costs' are and their relevance to ASIC development, over FPGAs where they are non-existent, or GPUs where mega firms like Nvidia and AMD can afford to spend millions of dollars and not forward the costs upfront to customers as really something as trivial as Bitcoin eoypth a tiny $1.4 billion market cap pales in comparison to graphics card supply for other uses.

There will always be pre-orders until a well financed firm can swallow NRE before requesting customer payment. And if they can, and it become more profitable to mine, even for a finite period, why sell? That is actually a real danger.

[Rampion]

BTW, I don't know if you were an Avalon batch #1 customer, I seriously doubt it, because if you were you would know that the ROI those batch #1 Avalon returned is insane. The guy that took the gamble to buy 10 or more of them, is now FILTHY rich.

That wouldn't have been possible without pre-orders, crowd-funding, or call it as you wish.

Indeed very healthy situation, send 20K to some dudes in China, maybe you get filthy rich.

Which one do you like more?
old one able to produce those first 300 units quite fast?
http://imgur.com/a/KPBTl

or the second fancy one (totally unnecessary since old one was able to produce working units) builded with our money to provide sort of cushion or second source of income to our Avalon brothers?
http://imgur.com/a/fqpME

Food for thoughts

Edit: So where did money for developing Bitfury chips came from? It is not crowd funded as far as I know

Sorry, is Bitfury offering ready-made units or are they gathering pre-orders and asking for upfront payment for units delivered in the future? How is Bitfury's business model so superior's to Avalon? They already collected money and AFAIK they didn't deliver a single unit so far. Bitfury has a past history of successful FPGA development, as Avalon's ngzhang has. Pretty similar situation in my book, but please illustrate me how it's so different.

And BTW, 20k may seem a very big investment for you, but I remind you that only one BFL mini-rig was more expensive than that... And that many users in these forums are gambling more $ on KnC, for a much smaller $/potential profit ratio.

[erschiessen]

BTW, I don't know if you were an Avalon batch #1 customer, I seriously doubt it, because if you were you would know that the ROI those batch #1 Avalon returned is insane. The guy that took the gamble to buy 10 or more of them, is now FILTHY rich.

That wouldn't have been possible without pre-orders, crowd-funding, or call it as you wish.

Indeed very healthy situation, send 20K to some dudes in China, maybe you get filthy rich.  Maybe you get some serious stress like with bASIC guys:)

Which one do you like more?
old one able to produce those first 300 units quite fast?
http://imgur.com/a/KPBTl

or the second fancy one (totally unnecessary since old one was able to produce working units) builded with our money to provide sort of cushion or second source of income to our Avalon brothers?
http://imgur.com/a/fqpME

Food for thoughts

You make absolute sense with your questioning.

How can a business get WORSE at what they do, with more practice?

[lazydna]

BTW, I don't know if you were an Avalon batch #1 customer, I seriously doubt it, because if you were you would know that the ROI those batch #1 Avalon returned is insane. The guy that took the gamble to buy 10 or more of them, is now FILTHY rich.

That wouldn't have been possible without pre-orders, crowd-funding, or call it as you wish.

Indeed very healthy situation, send 20K to some dudes in China, maybe you get filthy rich.  Maybe you get some serious stress like with bASIC guys:)

Which one do you like more?
old one able to produce those first 300 units quite fast?
http://imgur.com/a/KPBTl

or the second fancy one (totally unnecessary since old one was able to produce working units) builded with our money to provide sort of cushion or second source of income to our Avalon brothers?
http://imgur.com/a/fqpME

Food for thoughts

You make absolute sense with your questioning.

How can a business get WORSE at what they do, with more practice?

It's called growing pains. Batch one had a lot of time to get going with no deadline and it was smaller. The next batches were probably too large and their infrastructure could not produce that many in that short of time. They over estimated their capabilities. Offering refunds is the right thing to do, expecting more then refunds and your just being a baby. You took a chance, now in hindsight you don't like it and are crying. You're not entitled to interest on your pre-sale. Took a chance and lost. Shit happens.

[pajak666]

Sorry, is Bitfury offering ready-made units or are they gathering pre-orders and asking for upfront payment for units delivered in the future? How is Bitfury's business model so superior's to Avalon? They already collected money and AFAIK they didn't deliver a single unit so far. Bitfury has a past history of successful FPGA development, as Avalon's ngzhang has. Pretty similar situation in my book, but please illustrate me how it's so different.

And BTW, 20k may seem a very big investment for you, but I remind you that only one BFL mini-rig was more expensive than that... And that many users in these forums are gambling more $ on KnC, for a much smaller $/potential profit ratio.

Bitfury offers ~2100 $ = ~21BTC / 120 GH/s unit - no delay yet, no evidence of mining with customers units
Avalon offers  B#3 ~10000 $ = ~100BTC / 85 GH/s unit - delayed already, heavily overpriced due to calculated 1 month break even according to bitsyncom promises, possible delivery of chips prior to batch #3 customers, building new facility instead of building customers units.

Batch #1 was indeed a gamble since there was no proven ASIC technology to work with bitcoin mining, and only 2 of 4 companies did menage to deliver on time(Avalon, ASICminer). Now times are quite different.

OH I didn't knew that bitcoin economy is designed to get rich people more rich? I assume that if you can afford sending 20K to some dudes in china you have quite a backup. My flawed thinking about bitcoin ecconomy sorry for that. batch #1 customers are hashing the shit out of it, while batch #3 customers were fooled to borrow money to Avalon team with no intrest rates

How much easier should it be to deliver something if you charge 10x times more than you need to deliver working unit and actually profit?
I assume that you have 10x more money to spend to deliver single working unit, that would be true if our money would have been spend on producing our units rather than new unnecessary facility. If something fails you got ten times more money than you need so you can forward that money to other place to speed up things, or again I am missing sth?

I imagine avalon components might be hard to get, same as dope. But if I would send you downtown and give you 10x more money than you need to buy a dope, even if you wouldn't knew anybody you would be able to buy it overpriced in quite reasonable time. I don't expect you to build meth lab for your business, even that I gave you 10x $ more than needed. DUCY?