Ledger nano S or Trezor T?

[asdlolciterquit]

I would vary the steps you are planning on taking.  For privacy I would not transfer ALL my BTC into the Trezor wallet without the password.  When you then move the BTC from that original wallet to the other two passphrase protected wallets you are creating a "trail" that can easily now link the other two  wallets to the original.  For privacy it would be better to move only 1 BTC (using your example amounts from your post) to the non-passphrase wallet.  Now you transfer the other 2 BTC to the remaining wallets directly from Electrum or wherever.  This way there is NO connection between those wallets at all in the blockchain.  On a Trezor when you use passphrases those wallets generated all have totally different MPK's and addresses.  If you handle your transactions properly you can keep them separate from view in the blockchain as well.  In my case when I did what you are doing I ran a commercial mixer between my Electrum and the Trezor wallet destination.  I wanted to make sure even the original Electrum wallet link was severed from my personal Trezor wallets.  You may not care about this, but I wanted to explain this to you and other readers.  During Trezor wallet creation this is the time to make it "alone" in the blockchain without reference to where the coins on it came from.  Just my take on this.

edit:  the passphrase issue is one you have to consider.  If you go the passphrase route (I do but that's just me) and ever need to restore because your Trezor breaks or is stolen you will need BOTH the 24 word SEED and all the passphrases.  If you forget a passphrase your coins are lost forever so pause and consider securing the passphrase if you go this route.  BTW - this is much better than a 25th word.  I hear that all the time but its not quite true.  I could hand you my 24 word SEED list and tell you to have fun finding my wallets.  You will not simply try adding a 25 th word and ever solve the math needed to build my passphrase generated wallets.

thanks for your answer.

If i've understood well, the problem is this my sentence "I send my 3 btc to trezor, so, all of these btc have now only a seed and no Passphrase.".

So what i have to do is:
-send my btc from my first electrum wallet to a non-passphrase wallet trezor wallet
-then do the same thing for my second electrum wallet.

Is it correct?

[asdlolciterquit]

From the Trezor blog:

In other words, your passphrase acts like a “25th seed word,” meaning your entire wallet — private and public keys, addresses — are generated from your 24 seed words and your passphrase — from all 25.

Chainanalysis companies have been able to trace bitcoin transactions past mixers for over a year. Don't count on a mixer for privacy. If you need to recover your Trezor seed and passphrase to a different wallet see the guide on Trezor docs. This compromises your seed and passphase so you are better off just restoring to a spare Trezor.

mmmm, recover my trezor seed compromises it because there can be a possibly infection of my pc? Or for what other reasons?

My trezor seed will be ok if i simply import it on electrum with "import hardware wallet" procedure? I know that it will import only the public keys..

Thanks a lot!

[asdlolciterquit]

I'm not sure that i have understood correctly what the links say.

Let's make an example.
- I have an electrum wallet with 1 btc and its own seed and Passphrase , and an other electrum wallet whit 2 btc with its own seed and Passphrase .
- I buy a trezor. I create a new btc seed for my trezor.

So far... so good.

- I send my 3 btc to trezor, so, all of these btc have now only a seed and no Passphrase.

No... I do not recommend that you do this...

- Then i enable Passphrase encryption on my trezor.
- Then i can create two different Passphrase and send 1 btc to my first Passphrase wallet and 2 btc to my second Passphrase wallet.
- So, after that, i have to wallet with two different amount on them.

You should just do this... create the passphrases FIRST... then transfer 1 btc from "ElectrumWallet1" to "TrezorPassphraseWallet1"... and 2 btc from "ElectrumWallet2" to "TrezorPassphraseWallet2"... or, as I stated earlier, you can simply create multiple accounts in Trezor. Refer: https://blog.trezor.io/wallet-accounts-and-addresses-bdfa6b66b037 - The section on "Accounts". You can have up to 10 BTC "accounts" in your wallet... it's a bit like having a checking account and a savings account. The accounts are "separate"... ie. you cannot create a transaction that includes coins from Account#0 with coins from Account#1 in the same transaction... but all the accounts are generated from the same seed/passphrase.

thanks for your suggestion.

Can i ask why is better create first the two TrezorPassphraseWallet instead to add the Passphrase after?

Thanks again for your help!

If i want to import my trezor's seed on a new electrum wallet, what happen? I will see a wallet with 3 btc, or what else? I don't understand this part

To import the seed into a new Electrum wallet, you would enter the seed, click "options", select "BIP39 seed" and "Extend this seed with custom words"... you'd put your seed in, then on the next screen, you're prompted for the "extra words"... this is your "passphrase".

So you would need to create 2 new Electrum wallets... one for each "passphrase"...


If you use the "account" method, you'd still need to create 2 new Electrum wallets when restoring to Electrum, but instead of having passphrases, you'd simply change the Derivation Path (m/44'/0'/1'... m/44'/0'/2' etc).

it's clear!
And if i want to just connect my trezor to electrum with "import hardware wallet" procedure? i will have only one electrum wallet?

An other question: is it more safe use a Passphrase on trezor?

I'm not sure what you mean here? Using a passphrase means you can effectively "hide" your actual wallet... someone could have your 24 word seed, but without your passphrase they will never find your actual wallet... bruteforcing a "strong" password (10+ alphanumerics+symbols) is impractical for current computers (length of time required measured in years etc)... so if your piece of paper with your seed words gets stolen, and you've used a passphrase, you have plenty of time to move your coins before the thief can access them. Without a passphrase, as soon as they have your seed, they effectively own your coins

well, you explain me very well the point. It's better to use a passphrase  too.

[HCP]

Can i ask why is better create first the two TrezorPassphraseWallet instead to add the Passphrase after?

Because it'll help protect your privacy and also save you some transaction fees... if you go:

- Electrum1 -> Trezor
- Electrum2 -> Trezor
- Trezor -> TrezorPassphrase1
- Trezor -> TrezorPassphrase2

You have effectively linked ALL your BTC together... plus 2 extra transaction fees...


Much better to do:
- Electrum1 -> TrezorPassphrase1
- Electrum2 -> TrezorPassphrase2

Your BTC remain "unlinked"... and you only do two transactions instead of 4.

If you don't care about privacy you can send them all to same Trezor wallet first if you want and then split into two wallets... And if you don't want to keep your BTC separated, there is no need to create multiple Trezor wallets or Accounts.

it's clear!
And if i want to just connect my trezor to electrum with "import hardware wallet" procedure? i will have only one electrum wallet?

You will create the "watching only" wallet for whatever passphrase you used to unlock the wallet when you create the Electrum wallet.

So, if you connect to Electrum and "import hardware wallet"... and use Passphrase2, you will get TrezorPassphrase2 wallet imported to Electrum... if you use passphrase1, you will get TrezorPassphrase1 wallet imported to Electrum etc.

To switch from one wallet to another in Electrum, you need to disconnect/reconnect the Trezor and unlock with the passphrase for the wallet you want to view.

[asdlolciterquit]

Can i ask why is better create first the two TrezorPassphraseWallet instead to add the Passphrase after?

Because it'll help protect your privacy and also save you some transaction fees... if you go:

- Electrum1 -> Trezor
- Electrum2 -> Trezor
- Trezor -> TrezorPassphrase1
- Trezor -> TrezorPassphrase2

You have effectively linked ALL your BTC together... plus 2 extra transaction fees...


Much better to do:
- Electrum1 -> TrezorPassphrase1
- Electrum2 -> TrezorPassphrase2

Your BTC remain "unlinked"... and you only do two transactions instead of 4.

If you don't care about privacy you can send them all to same Trezor wallet first if you want and then split into two wallets... And if you don't want to keep your BTC separated, there is no need to create multiple Trezor wallets or Accounts.

it's clear!
And if i want to just connect my trezor to electrum with "import hardware wallet" procedure? i will have only one electrum wallet?

You will create the "watching only" wallet for whatever passphrase you used to unlock the wallet when you create the Electrum wallet.

So, if you connect to Electrum and "import hardware wallet"... and use Passphrase2, you will get TrezorPassphrase2 wallet imported to Electrum... if you use passphrase1, you will get TrezorPassphrase1 wallet imported to Electrum etc.

To switch from one wallet to another in Electrum, you need to disconnect/reconnect the Trezor and unlock with the passphrase for the wallet you want to view.

thanks again!

now i know what to do.

When you talk about "watching only" wallet you mean that without trezor i can't made transaction, or, in any case i can't made transaction with electrum?

[HCP]

When you talk about "watching only" wallet you mean that without trezor i can't made transaction, or, in any case i can't made transaction with electrum?

Correct... the wallet you create using the "use hardware device" option will create a "watching only" wallet as the Trezor will only present the "xpub" master public key to Electrum. This means you will be unable to spend without the Trezor attached.

To spend without the Trezor you would need to create a "standard wallet" by importing the Trezor 24 word seed mnemonic.

[asdlolciterquit]

I'm sorry to up this thread again, but there is something i don't understand: if i've a trezor wallet with passphrase, and someone stole my seed, why he can't just simple import that seed on electrum and steal my btc?

It's because my trezor's passphare works as the electrum's passphrase?

[OmegaStarScream]

I'm sorry to up this thread again, but there is something i don't understand: if i've a trezor wallet with passphrase, and someone stole my seed, why he can't just simple import that seed on electrum and steal my btc?

It's because my trezor's passphare works as the electrum's passphrase?

A passphrase have no equivalent in Electrum (check the post beloiw, my bad). Trezor give you 24 words, consider that passphrase as the 25 word that you can create yourself (can be anything) so even If someone have access to your seed, he can't do anything.

[HCP]

A passphrase have no equivalent in Electrum...

Yes, it does...


This option (available when you click the "Options" button on the seed display screen) allows you to effectively add a Passphrase to your Electrum seed. It is NOT the same thing as a wallet password (which is used to encrypt the data in the wallet file)

[asdlolciterquit]

thanks both for your reply, but i'm not sure to have understood well.. so i ask: what happened if i try to import my seed of trezor (without the passphrase) to electrum?

[European Central Bank]

thanks both for your reply, but i'm not sure to have understood well.. so i ask: what happened if i try to import my seed of trezor (without the passphrase) to electrum?

not much. it certainly won't come up with your addresses if you don't have the 25th word. the 25th word unlocks all the other seed words. without it they're scrambled.

think of it like a seed password, not a wallet password.

[HCP]

thanks both for your reply, but i'm not sure to have understood well.. so i ask: what happened if i try to import my seed of trezor (without the passphrase) to electrum?

Exactly what happens when you load up your Trezor wallet with no passphrase... You get a completely different wallet generated.

The Trezor folks have a really good explanation about seeds and passphrases (and PINs) here: https://blog.trezor.io/seed-pin-passphrase-e15d14a0b546

This is why they talk about passphrases being a "25th word"... Like the other 24 words, it is absolutely 100% required to recreate your wallet if you use it to generate the wallet...

And like the other 24 words, if it is spelled incorrectly or missed out, you will be unable to recreate your original wallet.

[asdlolciterquit]

thanks both for your reply, but i'm not sure to have understood well.. so i ask: what happened if i try to import my seed of trezor (without the passphrase) to electrum?

Exactly what happens when you load up your Trezor wallet with no passphrase... You get a completely different wallet generated.

The Trezor folks have a really good explanation about seeds and passphrases (and PINs) here: https://blog.trezor.io/seed-pin-passphrase-e15d14a0b546

This is why they talk about passphrases being a "25th word"... Like the other 24 words, it is absolutely 100% required to recreate your wallet if you use it to generate the wallet...

And like the other 24 words, if it is spelled incorrectly or missed out, you will be unable to recreate your original wallet.

thank you so much, now it's clear! So, it's just important as the other words of the seed and i have to use it when i create a new wallet on electrum with a seed..

thank you too, European Central Bank

[jerry0]

On amazon, it seems the ratings are a lot higher for the trezor vs nano ledger s.  Is there a reason for that?  The other thing i noticed is the price of the trezor has dropped a lot to where price is similar to nano ledger.  Is there reason why?  Heard lot of negative reviews of ppl buying ledger s through amazon saying its a fake or compromised one.  Is there a reason there hasn't been cases of this with the trezor?


So basically if you buy a nano ledger s, make sure you buy it from manufacturer.  But with trezor, it doesn't matter?  I haven't heard of cases where a compromised trezor was bought.  Anyone read about that?


Does anyone know if nano ledger s you could put a 25th word yourself?  So with trezor and the 25th word, it generates you 24 word seed.  Then you make your own 25th word which could be any word you want, no matter how many letters?  So if someone were to figure out your 24 word seed on trezor as it got exposed somehow, does that mean its basically impossible for them to access your trezor if you put a 25th word?  Like imagine your 25th word was something like
hewenttogetsomedrinksagain?

[Connemara]

I've ordered Ledger from "LedgerWallet" seller on Amazon.de, it's official account of Ledger France and so far (it doesn't arrived yet) I'm very dissapointed, as Ledger wrote me, that they don't raise VAT-EU invoice.
So, I'm waiting for another reply from Ledger itself and Amazon and I will probably return it and buy Trezor.

[codewench]

So basically if you buy a nano ledger s, make sure you buy it from manufacturer.  But with trezor, it doesn't matter?  I haven't heard of cases where a compromised trezor was bought.  Anyone read about that?

It is more important to buy the Trezor direct from the manufacturer. In theory, someone could load compromised firmware into a Trezor, repackage it, and sell it on to an unsuspecting buyer. Trezors come from the factory containing only a bootloader, forcing buyers to load fresh firmware. If the device arrived already loaded, then something is wrong! However, a clever hacker could still get around this protection.

The Ledger apparently performs a validity check with every use. Thus, you can have a higher confidence that the firmware isn't compromised. Plus, Ledger's use of a Secure Element (an I/O limited 2nd microcontroller) makes it a lot harder to hack.

Both devices can fall victim to social engineering. A crook could preload a seed and trick people into using it by including an "updated" manual. To protect against this, a user should spend time on the Trezor and Ledger sites and learn about how the device should work. If the received device acts differently, then something is wrong.

...

The two devices have vastly different approaches to security:

Trezor has security through an open source design. This has allowed "white hats" to discover flaws. Conversely, it also allows "black hats" to create malicious clones.

Ledger has security through obscurity. Nobody outside of Ledger knows fully what is going on inside the Secure Element. But what happens when the secret leaks...

[Connemara]

My Ledger did arrive (apart from all invoice stuff) and after initial problems I was able to initialize it, create a new wallet and secure it.

Question: I have several ERC20 tokens, currently hold in Coinomi mobile wallet.
I want to transfer them to Ledger - is there a way to scan/replicate/teleport/sweep my funds from Coinomi to Ledger OTHER than simply send tokens?
I'm asking, cause transfer fees for ERC20 are awfully expensive comparing to other coins...

Initial impression - it's a very complicated ecosystem with veeeeery bad UX/UI in my subjective opinion.
Chrome apps? Really? Why there is not a native Windows/Linux/Mac app with all the accounts holds together?
Separate apps for almost each coin is super counterintuitive.
Also, the system, when you have to close one "wallet" chromium app to launch manager for example is hyper stupid.
From UX point of view, also launching app is stupid - the app should initiate the connection, not the device itself - device should only confirm PIN/password.
Last but not least - why 2 buttons only? Was third button really so expensive to add?

I know, that human can get used to almost everything and maybe (I'm not engineer) there are some technical specification that force this kind of "stupidity" but for me, as a UX designer (I'm not bragging here, just trying to say, that I'm not a "rookie" in computer tech) and a normal user this is just plain stupid. And calling hardware wallets "easy" to use
- as I saw in some websites - are waaaaaaaaaaaaay exaggerated.

[HCP]

Chrome apps? Really? Why there is not a native Windows/Linux/Mac app with all the accounts holds together?

Most likely because it is already cross-platform... and easier to maintain ONE codebase than three.

Separate apps for almost each coin is super counterintuitive.

Why? It helps keeps thing segregated. The number of people who seem to like loading up BCH addresses and sending BTC when on exchanges that have everything in one place would indicate that this may not be such a bad thing.

Also, it means from a development perspective, there are less likely to be issues when updating/adding new coins... you change something in BTC app you only need to test BTC app, you don't have to do regression testing on EVERYTHING to make sure you haven't screwed up another part of the codebase... makes testing faster and means they can release updates faster, which is good for users

Also, the system, when you have to close one "wallet" chromium app to launch manager for example is hyper stupid.

No, it isn't... can you imagine the problems that might occur should you happen to start "managing" apps while the wallet is busy communicating with one?

Ensuring that only ONE process is using the device at a time is a good thing in my opinion.

From UX point of view, also launching app is stupid - the app should initiate the connection, not the device itself - device should only confirm PIN/password.

I'm not sure I follow, you launch the wallet app in Chrome and it opens and waits. You then select the coin you want to use on the device and it "pairs" with the Chrome wallet app. Not really any different to connecting say your phone to a WiFi hotspot is it?

Last but not least - why 2 buttons only? Was third button really so expensive to add?

I'd say it was more about "space"... I think a 3rd button would have been a bit of a "tight" fit and could have lead to accidental clicking of buttons.

And, to be honest, I don't see the need for a third button... is it really that hard to click both buttons together as "select"?


Mind you, I've been using it for a while now... so it might just be an experience thing.

[Connemara]

Chrome apps? Really? Why there is not a native Windows/Linux/Mac app with all the accounts holds together?

Most likely because it is already cross-platform... and easier to maintain ONE codebase than three.

Separate apps for almost each coin is super counterintuitive.

Why? It helps keeps thing segregated. The number of people who seem to like loading up BCH addresses and sending BTC when on exchanges that have everything in one place would indicate that this may not be such a bad thing.
Also, it means from a development perspective, there are less likely to be issues when updating/adding new coins... you change something in BTC app you only need to test BTC app, you don't have to do regression testing on EVERYTHING to make sure you haven't screwed up another part of the codebase... makes testing faster and means they can release updates faster, which is good for users

Also, the system, when you have to close one "wallet" chromium app to launch manager for example is hyper stupid.

No, it isn't... can you imagine the problems that might occur should you happen to start "managing" apps while the wallet is busy communicating with one?
Ensuring that only ONE process is using the device at a time is a good thing in my opinion.

From UX point of view, also launching app is stupid - the app should initiate the connection, not the device itself - device should only confirm PIN/password.

I'm not sure I follow, you launch the wallet app in Chrome and it opens and waits. You then select the coin you want to use on the device and it "pairs" with the Chrome wallet app. Not really any different to connecting say your phone to a WiFi hotspot is it?

Last but not least - why 2 buttons only? Was third button really so expensive to add?

I'd say it was more about "space"... I think a 3rd button would have been a bit of a "tight" fit and could have lead to accidental clicking of buttons.
And, to be honest, I don't see the need for a third button... is it really that hard to click both buttons together as "select"?
Mind you, I've been using it for a while now... so it might just be an experience thing.

Thank you for your answer. The important thing here is to understand, that I was posting only MY PERSONAL OPINION as a brand new/fresh user (what I've stated in my original post, but maybe not clearly enough).
Anyway, I tend to value opinions of every other person, cause that's help me to understand other points of view and update (at some points) my assumptions in terms of better UX designing.

As I wrote, I'm not an engineer and probably there are solid TECHNICAL reasons this is constructed in a way it is now, I'm not arguing on that.
The only thing I'm arguing is the stupidity of some solutions that Ledger is imprinting here - and ONLY as a new user!
I also wrote (which you also pointed) that probably after weeks of using Ledger you just get use to it and treat it like a "normal". These were only my initial impressions.

Still, I beg to disagree in some points.

[Chrome apps]
You're right with cross-platforming, but then you've got a Ripple Wallet, which is... Windows native app, not Chrome app as others.

[separate apps]
Still believe that one "main" app, even if it will have separate "subprograms" for each wallet will benefit for UX/UI.

[additional buttons]
Yes, I still believe adding third button would benefit to UX.
There are several ways to implement it, f.e. there could be a button on the other side of the device, there could be a "flat" button on the side where the LCD is, and so on...
The whole device could be a little bit bigger to hold 3 or even 4 buttons (next, prev, OK, exit).

KEEP IN MIND:
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to my point of view!
I just like to broaden my horizons through discussion and all of these opinions are only my subjective, personal opinion after using the gear for the first time for like 60 minutes for now

Have a good day and thank you for your input.

[HCP]

All good mate... as you say, just pointing out some things from *my* perspective

Wasn't meant to come across as definitive statements for why things are as they are, but more "I think it is like that because...". Honestly, the only people who REALLY know for sure are the Ledger peeps... maybe go hit them up directly and provide some feedback, I'm sure they appreciate the thoughts from a new user.