Butterfly Labs refusing refunds?

[Minako]

Didn't some people actually manage to get refunds, while others can't? I wonder what the difference is.

Someone should organize a torch-and-pitchfork meetup at their headquarters.

[Inedible]

Even if it has been 45 days, you can still open a dispute with your credit card company.

Then you lose your Paypal account and any future opportunity to use it again (some might say that's a good thing).

Hrm...I'm not so sure about that. PayPal may be more likely to flag BFL as a problem account than screw with members with plenty of history with the company.

For example, I've had my PayPal account for ~15 years now - I doubt I'll get a problem if I dispute a single charge.

It's absolutely certain that if you put a chargeback through against Paypal you'll lose your Paypal account.

No one's saying you would lose your paypal account if you disputed a Paypal payment with Paypal.

[AKCoins]

So what is the final word on Butterfly Labs? Do they actually ship working products to customers or not? I've seen people on Twitter posting pics of shipping packages from BFL, but I haven't seen the actual machines.

What is the deal? Are they scammers or is the company legit?

[8bits]

Be-careful when you order from BFL. You wont see the actual product delivered for many months "if at all". There orders are extremely backed up. Check out http://bfl.ptz.ro/ someone made this collective spreadsheet so people can track what orders been delivered.

[SgtMoth]

Ive received 2 of the 4 machines that I ordered.  

[canth]

So what is the final word on Butterfly Labs? Do they actually ship working products to customers or not? I've seen people on Twitter posting pics of shipping packages from BFL, but I haven't seen the actual machines.

What is the deal? Are they scammers or is the company legit?

It's all murkier than the binary options between scammer and legit. If you placed an early pre-order in June 2012 and it wasn't for a minirig, you probably have your order now and you'll make an ROI. For everyone else, the likelihood of making your money back becomes less and less the farther out the order was placed. If I had an order from 2012, I'd probably keep it. For anyone ordering today? Forget it.

[bobloblaw1]

Yeah.  I ordered a Jalapeno in January.  Based on current shipping times, it will be September or later before I receive it.  Butterfly Labs wouldn't cancel for me.

[canth]

Well, be happy it's only a Jalapeno at the original price.

[Zanatos666]

First off, BFL is not a scam.  Slow on their promises of shipping, absolutely.  Delivering slightly off of their original promises (but still within acceptable range for anyone who has their units), this is true to.  But a scam, they are not.  They have a public address from where you can visit them, call them, etc.  Now, should they have delivered product faster than they have, possibly, but unlike things like the Phantom console, they ACTUALLY have shipped product.

My Jalapeno was ordered in July of 2012.  11 months later I finally received my unit.  Its bigger than first promised, it draws more power than first promise, but it also is giving me more than the 4.5GH/s it was first promised as well.  I will take it.

Yes, when you ordered it said all sales were final.  Its a gamble you were willing to take.  They did for a short 2 week period offer refunds for Jalapeno orders for those of us who were originally promised that they were going to be under a certain power consumption, and when it became evident that they were going to be over that and not they did offer your money back, but it was clear, if you didnt take the refund then and confirmed your order to stay open, that was it.

So now, with the other items, unless they run into the same situation with them where they are not going to be able to deliver the performance that they originally promised, your order stands as final just like everyone else who ordered.  You ordered in April of 2013, I ordered in July of 2012.  I lived through all of the promises of last year with shipping by end of summer, then October, then November, then end of the year, then silence for months, then May, and then finally started shipping units.  Its a gamble I made, knowing that may be saying goodbye to my money, but such is the risk that you take out in the BTC world. The only way to not take risk, is to not get in.

[canth]

...
Yes, when you ordered it said all sales were final.  Its a gamble you were willing to take.  They did for a short 2 week period offer refunds for Jalapeno orders for those of us who were originally promised that they were going to be under a certain power consumption, and when it became evident that they were going to be over that and not they did offer your money back, but it was clear, if you didnt take the refund then and confirmed your order to stay open, that was it.
...

I don't disagree - BFL isn't a scam. It's a company, with many flaws.

Here's one thing I take issue with - "all sales are final." Does this mean that no matter how late BFL is with shipping the product to me, I can't cancel my order or expect a refund? As far as I'm concerned, if the product has not been assembled or shipped - I'm still entitled to a refund. Otherwise, if BFL takes until 2014 or 2015 for me to receive my order, I would just have to deal? Sorry, but they can't just delay indefinitely. PayPal, MC, Visa and Amex will take the customers side if that happens.

[Zanatos666]

...
Yes, when you ordered it said all sales were final.  Its a gamble you were willing to take.  They did for a short 2 week period offer refunds for Jalapeno orders for those of us who were originally promised that they were going to be under a certain power consumption, and when it became evident that they were going to be over that and not they did offer your money back, but it was clear, if you didnt take the refund then and confirmed your order to stay open, that was it.
...

I don't disagree - BFL isn't a scam. It's a company, with many flaws.

Here's one thing I take issue with - "all sales are final." Does this mean that no matter how late BFL is with shipping the product to me, I can't cancel my order or expect a refund? As far as I'm concerned, if the product has not been assembled or shipped - I'm still entitled to a refund. Otherwise, if BFL takes until 2014 or 2015 for me to receive my order, I would just have to deal? Sorry, but they can't just delay indefinitely. PayPal, MC, Visa and Amex will take the customers side if that happens.

Well I say go ahead and file your dispute, you are entitled to do so by the terms of PayPal, and let us know what the resolution is. 

[canth]

...
Yes, when you ordered it said all sales were final.  Its a gamble you were willing to take.  They did for a short 2 week period offer refunds for Jalapeno orders for those of us who were originally promised that they were going to be under a certain power consumption, and when it became evident that they were going to be over that and not they did offer your money back, but it was clear, if you didnt take the refund then and confirmed your order to stay open, that was it.
...

I don't disagree - BFL isn't a scam. It's a company, with many flaws.

Here's one thing I take issue with - "all sales are final." Does this mean that no matter how late BFL is with shipping the product to me, I can't cancel my order or expect a refund? As far as I'm concerned, if the product has not been assembled or shipped - I'm still entitled to a refund. Otherwise, if BFL takes until 2014 or 2015 for me to receive my order, I would just have to deal? Sorry, but they can't just delay indefinitely. PayPal, MC, Visa and Amex will take the customers side if that happens.

Well I say go ahead and file your dispute, you are entitled to do so by the terms of PayPal, and let us know what the resolution is. 

Done - I don't want to be a jerk and I honestly hope that BFL does ship out successfully. I'm just not going to wait around to see if that's the case. I'll let you know what comes of it.

As an FYI, Chase Mastercard has already credited the funds in my account as a courtesy.

[cryptonibb]

You can´t because they are a scam. They are only selling a few devices to shut up false accusations, mainly sending devices to press as fast as they can, so they get nice reviews about how this things work, because in 1 or 2 months, they will generate 0 bitcoins.

They are a scam for this reasons:

1. They accept money on a device they did not even build yet.
2. You could wait 1 year or forever to receive it. With mining time is everything, the more time goes on, the less value your device. By the time you receive it, it could hardly even make your ROI back.
3. Amazon and every other vendor, including Sony with pre-orders on PS3, just to name one example. Only and ONLY charge the pre-order once its shipped.

This guys charge you money upfront for something they don´t own or have. And since there are not refunds, you paid AIR. Nothing.

Its a very elaborated scam. This is the reason why they are so secret about who is behind the company. Most pre-orders where used to fund themselves, and they are probably indirectly using that hardware to mine bitcoins, with that profit they though they could probably generate money to create more hardware, and basically making hardware for free. This is why Bitcoins are plumping in price.

Its going to blow up very soon, once bitcoins start to get lower and lower, as this ASIC vendors try to mine more and more, to produce their own hardware, which are supposed to send to customers. And since most customers actually never paid with real money, most with Bitcoins its like a big ponzy scheme they created without knowing.

[MooC Tals]

They had this here for quite some time but Josh said they would honor refunds all the same. Then about a month ago they sent out confirmation emails where one had to accept the new terms

and guess what the new terms were?

Yup.



Now Paypal has sent a global email to all their employees stating the above and I highlighted the relevant conditions that I believe would interest anyone here.

You can form your own mind as to what is happening here.

[cryptonibb]

Well that is the problem. They are PRE-SELLING devices they don´t stock or even have.

They said shipping started, but its a lie. Not a single 2013 order was yet to be received. So they just say this so PayPal probably does not close their account.

You can pre-sale, if units are on the way, and you actually have them.

Butterfly Labs did not even produced the units yet. This is the problem here. Very soon they are going to receive a heavy lawsuit or probably some federal intervention for scam.

For me, nothing justifies taking months to send or deliver units they are supposed to have already.

[canth]

<snip for quoting>
They had this here for quite some time but Josh said they would honor refunds all the same. Then about a month ago they sent out confirmation emails where one had to accept the new terms

and guess what the new terms were?

Yup.
<snip for quoting>
Now Paypal has sent a global email to all their employees stating the above and I highlighted the relevant conditions that I believe would interest anyone here.

You can form your own mind as to what is happening here.

Thanks. It's unfortunate for bitcoin related merchants that a few less reputable merchants will cause problems for the rest, but when isn't this the case?  Honestly, if merchants aren't going to offer refunds, they should just accept wires or bitcoin.

And yes, I have already formed in my mind exactly what is going to happen at this point. "sales are final" clauses certainly aren't all encompasing depending upon state, country laws and various credit card company policies.

[Zanatos666]

'Merica.....

[rovchris]

I asked for a refund and was refused here is a copy of the email for your amusement.

I am going to challenge paypal even though it has passed the 45 days because according to their terms you can not take money for products that they do not have to sell.

So I will see what happens - not holding my breath though

From: Butterfly Labs Inc [office@butterflylabs.com]
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 5:49 PM
To: Chris J R******
Subject: Re: Order Number 100034910

Thank you for contacting Butterfly Labs.  According to the terms you agreed to on checkout, all sales are final.  Now that shipping of orders has begun, refunds will not be processed.  Your order will be shipped per your position in the order queue.  Thank you for your patience and understanding.


For Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/>

Best regards,
Sabina
BF Labs, Inc. Customer Service


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Chris R**** <Chris.*****.co.uk> wrote:

Hello,

I placed my order on the 6th Arpil order number 100034910, I was aware it was a pre order item - but you did state that it would be 2 months! I can not wait any longer and I require the money due to a change in circumstances.

Therefore I would kindly request that you cancel my order and refund the money.

Many thanks

Chris R*****

[rovchris]

Just to add - I contacted paypal

And they do not want to know here is the relevant information from the email

We won't investigate disputes filed after 45 days, but we will take note of your problem.
To learn more about your rights through PayPal Purchase Protection, click Legal Agreements on any PayPal page, then click PayPal User Agreement.

The only reason I did not cancel in the 45 days is because BFL sent this email dated the 1st of May 2013

Dear Chris,

Shipping of our BitForce SC ASIC miners has begun!

You may have seen news reports of our ASIC miners in the wild and some of you may have already taken delivery.  It's all true.  We're finally shipping.  You will receive your order as we work through the shipping queue .

If you didn't know, you can check your order status on our website. Log in by clicking here. Use the same email and password you set up your account with.

Now onto my credit card company HSBC - it will be interesting to see what they say.

Other than that I am not sure what course of action I can take.

Either way I have been royally "raped" and then left in a ditch.

[Inedible]

Just to add - I contacted paypal

And they do not want to know here is the relevant information from the email

We won't investigate disputes filed after 45 days, but we will take note of your problem.
To learn more about your rights through PayPal Purchase Protection, click Legal Agreements on any PayPal page, then click PayPal User Agreement.

The only reason I did not cancel in the 45 days is because BFL sent this email dated the 1st of May 2013

Dear Chris,

Shipping of our BitForce SC ASIC miners has begun!

You may have seen news reports of our ASIC miners in the wild and some of you may have already taken delivery.  It's all true.  We're finally shipping.  You will receive your order as we work through the shipping queue .

If you didn't know, you can check your order status on our website. Log in by clicking here. Use the same email and password you set up your account with.

Now onto my credit card company HSBC - it will be interesting to see what they say.

Other than that I am not sure what course of action I can take.

Either way I have been royally "raped" and then left in a ditch.

You might want to let Paypal know that if they have no intention of dealing with it that you're left with no alternative than to contact your credit card company.

You should be aware there's a strong possibility they'll suspend your Paypal account permanently.