Butterfly Labs refusing refunds?

[Lomus]

I hope my BFL labs equipement comes though.
Lets see if they can ramp up production after the July 4th holiday

[petterj]

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

[rovchris]

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

I am inclined to agree after being refused a refund on my $2500 order and then not given a shipping date or an estimate I am not sure what else you can say - apart from the fact it may be a Ponzi scheme.

[Inedible]

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

I am inclined to agree after being refused a refund on my $2500 order and then not given a shipping date or an estimate I am not sure what else you can say - apart from the fact it may be a Ponzi scheme.

Can you do a chargeback?

[rovchris]

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

I am inclined to agree after being refused a refund on my $2500 order and then not given a shipping date or an estimate I am not sure what else you can say - apart from the fact it may be a Ponzi scheme.

Can you do a chargeback?

I can through HSBC but the only issue being is then Paypal will close my account and pursue me for the money.

The first email I sent to paypal and they basically told me to go and take a running jump. So I sent a follow up informing them a chargeback will be coming their way and undoubtedly a large number of chargebacks from other people so they may want to have a look.

If they send me another standard template email saying that they will not refund transactions over 45 days then the chargeback will be initiated.

I will also then take two massive dumps in two boxes and send them next day delivery by DHL to paypal and BFL to show my full appreciation of their professionalism and customer service.

Here is the email chain so far with paypal and as you can see their response is just some generic template.

Dear Chris,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
If you haven't received your item or the item you received doesn't match the original product description we have a dispute process to help you and your seller resolve the issue as amicably as possible. Where possible, you should always try contacting your seller before disputing a payment through PayPal but do bear in mind that you have 45 days from date of payment to open a dispute.
Here's how to open a dispute:
Log in to your PayPal account.
Click Resolution Center.
Click Dispute a Transaction.
Select the transaction you want to dispute, and then click Continue.
Select I have a problem with an item I purchased or I want to report a transaction that I didn't authorize.
Click Continue.
Follow the instructions to finish opening your dispute.
If you do not have a PayPal account you will need to sign up to file the dispute. You will need to locate the original email receipt for the transaction.
Here’s how to get started:
Go to the PayPal website.
Click Sign Up at the top of the page.
Complete the sign up form.
You must enter the credit card number used to make the purchase.
Click sign up again.
After you opened a dispute, you have 20 days to communicate with the seller. Disputes automatically close after 20 days. If you can't resolve the problem, you can ask us to investigate by escalating your dispute to a claim within the 20 days. We won't investigate disputes filed after 45 days, but we will take note of your problem.
To learn more about your rights through PayPal Purchase Protection, click Legal Agreements on any PayPal page, then click PayPal User Agreement.
 
Please let us know if you require any further assistance.
Yours sincerely,
Punitha Vickneswari
PayPal

Copyright © 1999-2013 PayPal. All rights reserved.

PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A.
Société en Commandite par Actions
Registered Office: 22-24 Boulevard Royal L-2449, Luxembourg
RCS Luxembourg B 118 349

From: chris.******.co.uk
Sent: Saturday, July ##, #### #:##:## AM (-##:##)
To: webform@paypal.co.uk
Subject: ManagingMyMoney (ID: C###-L###-T#####-S###-W######)
 
Form Message
customer subject:   legacy
customer message:   >Topic: 'Managing My Money'
>Sub Topic: 'Refund or cancel a payment'
>payment_action: 'refund'
>message: 'Hello, I ordered a product from Butterfly Labs on the 6th of April Transaction ID 1DP9********911G.
>
>I have asked the company for a refund as they have still not delivered the item and refuse to give me a refund. They also refuse to give a delivery date.
>
>They continuously lie about when the product is going to be shipped - saying a few more weeks each time - a few weeks pass and then nothing and they say the same again.
>
>Please contact them and ask when the item will be delivered, it will become very apparent to you that they will not give a date.
>
>I also know of a numerous other people that have not received their item and also have been refused a refund who also paid with paypal.
>
>It is now obvious they do not have the products and therefore should not be taking peoples money yet they are still taking orders!
>
>Please investigate this.
>
>I eagerly await your response.
>
>Best regards
>
>Chris'

[gazsullivan]

im glad that i did not order any asics then 

[canth]

Well if they did that it would centralise the network and defy the entire point of bitcoins which is a decentralised currency.

What would happen when those companies then decide to work together and completely control the money supply - we would basically end up with central banks again. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Firstly money supply doesn't depend on the extend of bitcoin centralization and secondly, mining pools (not ASIC manufacturers) can work together with much more success to control bitcoin network.

+1. I believe the answer is using 'public' companies or cooperatives similar to the way ASICMiner works. With AM being at least partially responsible to their shareholders, this allows for an efficient mining operation to be controlled by a decentralized collective of BTC supporters.

[canth]

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

I am inclined to agree after being refused a refund on my $2500 order and then not given a shipping date or an estimate I am not sure what else you can say - apart from the fact it may be a Ponzi scheme.

Can you do a chargeback?

FYI, I've initiated chargebacks with my CC. I sent PayPal an email to let them know my intentions - I essentially got a canned response as well.

For some reason, I find it hard to believe that PayPal will close my account over a couple of chargebacks considering I've had the account since the late '90s.

[jdany]

I bought 2 in April before I really started paying attention over here at BTCtalk.
After reading about them, I had a good idea they would not be shipping my order any time soon.

So, I gave them 42 days and I wrote them a note:

"My buyer protection is about to expire, please refund my money if my product hasn't yet shipped."

They promptly refunded me.

[rovchris]

Well if they did that it would centralise the network and defy the entire point of bitcoins which is a decentralised currency.

What would happen when those companies then decide to work together and completely control the money supply - we would basically end up with central banks again. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Firstly money supply doesn't depend on the extend of bitcoin centralization and secondly, mining pools (not ASIC manufacturers) can work together with much more success to control bitcoin network.

+1. I believe the answer is using 'public' companies or cooperatives similar to the way ASICMiner works. With AM being at least partially responsible to their shareholders, this allows for an efficient mining operation to be controlled by a decentralized collective of BTC supporters.

You can buy shares in Barclays Bank or any other bank and lets be honest that does not make them behave ethically, you do not get any say in how the company is run. ASICMiner only pays out on its profits - you have no idea what their real costs are. I know for a fact that companies will state far higher costs than they actually incur to reduce payouts to shareholders.

How exactly is ASICMiner partly responsible to the share holders? They can do whatever they like - they own the majority stake in the business so what difference do the share holders honestly make - none is the truth.

Wait and see - I think you will be sadly disappointed.

Furthermore if the Government of the country they are operating in - China, USA, UK decides they are going to regulate against Bitcoins - how easy will it be to close a few large companies and destroy bitcoins as opposed to going after hundreds of thousands of small miners.

The reason the bit torrent network is still going strong is because there is NO CENTRALISATION - they try and pick on a few individuals but it makes no difference.

[rovchris]

I bought 2 in April before I really started paying attention over here at BTCtalk.
After reading about them, I had a good idea they would not be shipping my order any time soon.

So, I gave them 42 days and I wrote them a note:

"My buyer protection is about to expire, please refund my money if my product hasn't yet shipped."

They promptly refunded me.

Man - that just proves what I said about the 2 month bullshit that they put on the product page - it is to just  try and trick people into waiting till the payment protection expires.

BFL are dirty thieving scum, liars and fraudsters - I am just going to phone HSBC first thing in the morning and chargeback on my credit card. Now I don't care if Paypal get upset - their risk assessment team should have done their job and NOT allowed BFL to take paypal payments. Paypal will have no one else to blame accept their own incompetence.

[rovchris]

Ok after speaking to HSBC they have informed me you can dispute a transaction 118 days after the purchase.

Beyond that you have no grounds to get a refund.

They said if BFL has not shipped the product and not given a delivery date then BFL are in breach of contract and regardless of the fact they say "all sales are final" it has no legal basis in any shape or form.

The "all sales are final" is to discourage people disputing the transaction but does not mean you can not dispute it.

HSBC are now sending me some forms I have to fill out and return and then will issue a chargeback.

So anyone else in my position please check how many days ago your order was because if you pass 118 you will have no protection.

[greenbtc]

Ok after speaking to HSBC they have informed me you can dispute a transaction 118 days after the purchase.

Beyond that you have no grounds to get a refund.

They said if BFL has not shipped the product and not given a delivery date then BFL are in breach of contract and regardless of the fact they say "all sales are final" it has no legal basis in any shape or form.

The "all sales are final" is to discourage people disputing the transaction but does not mean you can not dispute it.

HSBC are now sending me some forms I have to fill out and return and then will issue a chargeback.

So anyone else in my position please check how many days ago your order was because if you pass 118 you will have no protection.

Thanks for this, I am going to contact Bank of America and see if I can do the same thing.

[becoin]

So anyone else in my position please check how many days ago your order was because if you pass 118 you will have no protection.

I've put a manual half year ago for purchising bitcoin ASIC. You might find it useful:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0

[Inedible]

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

I am inclined to agree after being refused a refund on my $2500 order and then not given a shipping date or an estimate I am not sure what else you can say - apart from the fact it may be a Ponzi scheme.

Can you do a chargeback?

FYI, I've initiated chargebacks with my CC. I sent PayPal an email to let them know my intentions - I essentially got a canned response as well.

For some reason, I find it hard to believe that PayPal will close my account over a couple of chargebacks considering I've had the account since the late '90s.

PayPal are the ones that end up losing money. You can bet that they'll close your account down if they lose any money on you. Also, it's all automated systems and staff that are paid as little as possible.

No one is going to pay any particular attention to how old your account is. At best it'll be based on how much money you make them but beyond that, your loyalty doesn't mean anything to them.

[Inedible]

I know for a fact that companies will state far higher costs than they actually incur to reduce payouts to shareholders.

Well that's fraud and is illegal.

You could say this of any company/organisation.

If they're playing by the book then you have no argument.

[Inedible]

...I am just going to phone HSBC first thing in the morning and chargeback on my credit card. Now I don't care if Paypal get upset - their risk assessment team should have done their job and NOT allowed BFL to take paypal payments. Paypal will have no one else to blame accept their own incompetence.

Be careful though. If too many people complain and/or do chargebacks, Paypal might close their account down 

[rovchris]

I know for a fact that companies will state far higher costs than they actually incur to reduce payouts to shareholders.

Well that's fraud and is illegal.

You could say this of any company/organisation.

If they're playing by the book then you have no argument.

It is not illegal because of the mechanisms they use.

The way the money is "hidden" is by utilising over paid services.

So for example if you own a Data Centre you can quite easily create a second company that provides the electricity - This then sells the power to the Data Centre at above market rate so the profit of the data centre is reduced and share holders in the data centre will have reduced dividend payment while the second company has extremely high profits that the share holders of the Data Centre will receive no dividends from.

With ASICMiner for example - Do they own the facility that produces the ASIC chips or is this owned by "Someone" else that then sells them to ASICMiner. What is the arrangement with their Data Centre? Do they own it or lease space? Who are they leasing the space from. Who provides the connectivity?
Who actually owns the businesses that provide these services?

I am not saying ASICMiner undertake these practices but you can not say for certain.

Google do this in the UK for example that is why they pay very little corporation tax and the UK government can not do a thing about it accept bleat on about "ethics" and "moral compass".

This is the problem - they can do it and it is fully legitimate and an absolute nightmare to prove.

[Inedible]

It is not illegal because of the mechanisms they use.

The way the money is "hidden" is by utilising over paid services.

So for example if you own a Data Centre you can quite easily create a second company that provides the electricity - This then sells the power to the Data Centre at above market rate so the profit of the data centre is reduced and share holders in the data centre will have reduced dividend payment while the second company has extremely high profits that the share holders of the Data Centre will receive no dividends from.

With ASICMiner for example - Do they own the facility that produces the ASIC chips or is this owned by "Someone" else that then sells them to ASICMiner. What is the arrangement with their Data Centre? Do they own it or lease space? Who are they leasing the space from. Who provides the connectivity?
Who actually owns the businesses that provide these services?

I am not saying ASICMiner undertake these practices but you can not say for certain.

This is the problem - they can do it and it is fully legitimate and an absolute nightmare to prove.

Is this not a risk with any company?

[rovchris]

It is not illegal because of the mechanisms they use.

The way the money is "hidden" is by utilising over paid services.

So for example if you own a Data Centre you can quite easily create a second company that provides the electricity - This then sells the power to the Data Centre at above market rate so the profit of the data centre is reduced and share holders in the data centre will have reduced dividend payment while the second company has extremely high profits that the share holders of the Data Centre will receive no dividends from.

With ASICMiner for example - Do they own the facility that produces the ASIC chips or is this owned by "Someone" else that then sells them to ASICMiner. What is the arrangement with their Data Centre? Do they own it or lease space? Who are they leasing the space from. Who provides the connectivity?
Who actually owns the businesses that provide these services?

I am not saying ASICMiner undertake these practices but you can not say for certain.

This is the problem - they can do it and it is fully legitimate and an absolute nightmare to prove.

Is this not a risk with any company?

Of course it is - that is why Satoshi stated that one of the main reasons for creating Bitcoins was to stop centralisation and allowing these types of practises to take place.

People arguing that buying shares in large mining companies is a good thing do not understand how big business works.