The coming flash crash in AMC

[Entropy-uc]

What if Ken re-wrote the contract to give him less power in AMC in regards to controlling the share prices and issuing shares. Do you guys think that would help AMC and it's investors?

Of course it could.  But you would have to ask why he would do so.  He's already grabbed $500 000 for himself.  Why would he change direction now.

Based on his actions, I would examine any 'gifts' from Ken carefully.  They are likely to be more trojan horse than attempts to make things fair for his investors.

[1714565399]

1714565399

[1714565399]

1714565399

[1714565399]

1714565399

[1714565399]

1714565399

[Entropy-uc]

The AMC thread has become such a train wreck I am going to preserve this here.  It's informative to see how much value Ken is skimming before you even consider the gift of IP rights to himself.

Essentially shareholders provide all the capital, take all the risk, get no IP rights, and 8% of the profits from AMC.

I think I might understand the dividend situation now.  It's all very confusing since Ken likes to confuse himself and AMC, never mind VMC which scoops the cream of this farm in the first place.

So dividends look like so:

Code:

Shares outstanding
Ken:               60 000 0000
AMC capital fund:  20 000 000
Treasury shares :  12 000 000 (?)
Shareholders:       8 000 000 (?)

Treasury + Shareholders should be equal to 20 000 000 but I have no idea of the current split.

1 BTC in dividends delivers

Ken:  0 *  - until he repays the planned $1M no interest, no recourse loan to his other company VMC
AMC capital:   0.5 BTC
Treasury:      0.3 BTC
Shareholders:  0.2 BTC
 

Note that Ken is 60% owner of AMC, as well as 100% owner of VMC.  Each dividend pays 80% back to AMC at present.

Far from not getting any compensation as Ken claims, 48% of income goes to his pocket.

If he ever pays back the $1M gift, the dividends will be:

Code:

1 BTC in dividends delivers

Ken:           0.60 BTC
AMC capital:   0.2 BTC
Treasury:      0.12 BTC
Shareholders:  0.08 BTC
 

That's one hell of an investment you've got going.  If you are Ken Slaughter.

[lysr]

Lol, Ken and his accomplice are trying really hard to work the price up again, but smart investors have learnt the lesson and not fall to his trap again, no one is buying his shit anymore.

[EskimoBob]

Treasury:      0.12 BTC ?

What is that?

[Kushedout]

Treasury:      0.12 BTC ?

What is that?

Probably a family member.

Kenneth E. Slaughter, CEO/CTO. Gerald L. Slaughter, COO/CFO. Micha Slaughter, VP Manufacturing OperationsDarin Carolus, VP Marketing

[Entropy-uc]

There wasn't much flash to it, but it sure as hell crashed.

It's nice to know folks read my posts.  

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make another prediction:

Within 2 weeks AMC will break below the 0.0005 early investor price if Ken doesn't restructure the company.

Assets only support a price of 1/10 of that level, and that is before we consider the self dealing to VMC that bleeds value out of AMC.  Even the newbs are reading the fine print and realizing what a ripoff the stock is at this point.  It's no longer just Minor Miner, Deprived and myself beating the drum.

[razorfishsl]

Paying dividends to 'unsold' shares in this manner is actually illegal... it can be classed as money laundering, the  corporate profit is being pumped out of the company via a back door into a privately controlled external entity.
This would get you 10-15 in Hong Kong....

Normally the exchange should sanction the directors, but again they have no actual 'legal power' other than say 'don't do it again'.
A possible option would be to prevent further listings by the people involved, but to do that the exchange would need the status of  be something that people WANT to be listed on, unfortunately allowing such behavior is just undermining the whole system.

Bitcoin is not going to get anywhere fast as regards adoption, if it is considered a haven for drug dealers, money launders and dodgy business practices.

[lysr]

AMC isn't even a company, it is only a unit under VMC. How could it be approved for public trading?

[Entropy-uc]

AMC isn't even a company, it is only a unit under VMC. How could it be approved for public trading?

Most sites just charge a fee and you are listed.  Your contract could say that you will use the money to 'Kill Whitey' and you could still be trading.

I had thought BTCT.co would be different as they do have a review process, but they failed miserably in this instance.  It looks like buyers there lost 750 BTC in the last 2 days so maybe changes will be made.

More likely not though.

[dhenson]

Two points:

1)  In no way does bitcoin security performance effect bitcoin overall.  Unfortunately, the only thing holding bitcoin back at the moment is public acceptance.  The problem is, every time the public gets involved, the price bubbles, pops and scares the public off.  We need to diversify the exchanges enough so that arbitrage can calm the market to a minimum level of stability.

2) All fun aside, Ken really thinks AMC is a real company and a solid investment.  Will it be Asicminer 2.0? No, most definitely not.  Is it profitable @ .0008 / share? Yes.  Is it a scam? No.  Might the U.S. Gov. crack down on AMC/VMC for the multiple questionable business practices? Yes.

I'm no longer an AMC share holder.  I will admit that I made quite a bit of BTC off of this roller coaster ride.  However, in my heart, I believe Ken is being truthful and has only the best intentions in mind.  His business plan however admittedly is faulty.

I will say however that I have a sneaking suspicion that VBS and Lewiki are both part of AMC and not 'normal' share holders.

Also.. Please stop holding burnside in some way responsible.  That's just stupid.  He leaves it up to the shareholders to approve new securities.  AMC was already trading on bitfunder, there was at the time no compelling reason to deny the listing.

[Entropy-uc]

Two points:

1)  In no way does bitcoin security performance effect bitcoin overall.  Unfortunately, the only thing holding bitcoin back at the moment is public acceptance.  The problem is, every time the public gets involved, the price bubbles, pops and scares the public off.  We need to diversify the exchanges enough so that arbitrage can calm the market to a minimum level of stability.

2) All fun aside, Ken really thinks AMC is a real company and a solid investment.  Will it be Asicminer 2.0? No, most definitely not.  Is it profitable @ .0008 / share? Yes.  Is it a scam? No.  Might the U.S. Gov. crack down on AMC/VMC for the multiple questionable business practices? Yes.

I'm no longer an AMC share holder.  I will admit that I made quite a bit of BTC off of this roller coaster ride.  However, in my heart, I believe Ken is being truthful and has only the best intentions in mind.  His business plan however admittedly is faulty.

I will say however that I have a sneaking suspicion that VBS and Lewiki are both part of AMC and not 'normal' share holders.

Price bubbles aren't the only thing turning people against bitcoin.  Getting ripped off while using bitcoin tends to make people blame bitcoin, not the con artist who cheated them.

I would have to dispute one of your claims.  Buying AMC shares at 0.0008 will not be profitable in the long run.  One tenth of that price might be a good buy, if you can trust Ken with money.

[mandroid]

I will say however that I have a sneaking suspicion that VBS and Lewiki are both part of AMC and not 'normal' share holders.

I think they an a few others that frequent the AMC thread and the various freenode IRC channels started out as unlucky kids falling for Ken's scams, but as more and more people showed them the scam they transformed into monsters. Now they're soulless husks who truly believe AMC is the second coming, and they think acting like everything is nice and dandy will attract the new money they desperately need to pump their share price up.

Besides, they wouldn't be so obvious if they were part of AMC.

[dhenson]

You are correct that in the long run the security will not be worth it's current price.  Ken has no hope of getting in front of the ball on this project.  Although he does have just enough going for him to pump the price back up to .002 for a short time.  You could buy now at .0008, ride it until .0019 or so and then dump for a quick profit.

At the moment, long money is in AM, short is in AMC.  The trick is when to roll AMC profits into AM shares.

Good luck everyone!

**disclaimer: I'm currently invested in KnC mining rigs and AM shares for long term hedge against USD/BTC exchange.  I have no plans of re-purchasing AMC shares.

[Entropy-uc]

Another imminent crash coming, if the support at 0.0008 does not hold, it would be a freefall back to IPO price!

It broke.  Now 0.00073 at Bitfunder.

2 weeks to break the 0.0005 price might have been optimistic.  Everything happens faster with Bitcoin!

[freedomno1]

Was observing this myself and thinking I still prefer AM but if the news hypes up sentiment then a holding position at a very low price range will result in a nice return of course AM keeps going up so need to stalk it for this news  
That said I don't think this downdrop is done either and by far we will not reach that starting price unless we see shipping or something on a large scale.
Of course the exposing risk to price dropping and lower liquidity make it harder to execute but it is interesting nonetheless
It has only been on btct a few days so the true trading activity will take some time to observe on one exchange and likely explains the significant price difference between the two that or IPO buyers are holding since executing would be a fairly large loss.
As for the exchange listing there are worse out there was thinking well its on bitfunder mentality
Either way as always do your diligence
They are listed as a competitor to AM but as we know competition hasn't been delivering so Do your diligence again
If AM produces weak units but competitors offer better units at lower costs in the future that can undercut AM it's worth checking everything out
Either way I am guessing the market considers the true value at 0.0005 until proven otherwise and would agree no more no less until results appear

[freedomno1]

Was observing this myself and thinking I still prefer AM but if the news hypes up sentiment then a holding position at a very low price range will result in a nice return of course AM keeps going up so need to stalk it for this news  
Of course the exposing risk to price dropping and lower liquidity make it harder to execute but it is interesting nonetheless
It has only been on btct a few days so the true trading activity will take some time to observe on one exchange and likely explains the significant price difference between the two that or IPO buyers are holding since executing would be a fairly large loss

The spread is quite brutal for anyone looking to profit from a dead cat bounce.  You have to make a 25% gain just to cover the bid-ask spread right now.

Volume on btct.co has dropped to essentially nothing.  Folks on there are eating huge losses since all the shares trading there were issued at 0.0025.  It will take time for them to digest the mess, and cut their losses by selling.

I know burnside is monitoring things.  I hope it causes serious changes to be made.

Fell for the its on one exchange so I guess it passed some test fallacy myself of course I sold out noticing the spread between the two exchanges was huge.
That said it is possible we will see a dead cat bounce or two but a company should be less speculation more investing
Of course speculation is fine as well with AM but its with good reasons
Speculation on how badly something is flaming out is different

Maybe it will cause some changes to be made but the question is what criteria should be met that AMC had and what else should be added being listed on another exchange has a value getting burned is the fault of the investors unfortunately
So really three choices
Dollar Cost averaging those expensive shares and hoping on a small bounce to cut losses
Cashing out and taking the hard loss
Hold and wait

Lol speaking of Suspicious here is another one but they promise videos not pics so ponders that lols
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=213172.msg2573945#msg2573945

[ronaldlee0917]

Another imminent crash coming, if the support at 0.0008 does not hold, it would be a freefall back to IPO price!

It broke.  Now 0.00073 at Bitfunder.

2 weeks to break the 0.0005 price might have been optimistic.  Everything happens faster with Bitcoin!

It is painful to see over 50% loss within a few days.
But people got to learn and move on, be wary of any "Asicminer 2.0 scam" in the future.
It is their last chance to sell the shares before they are worth nothing...

[furuknap]

Sometimes I wish I was the only gatekeeper.  It's better though that I am not, I was wrong on so many different things back in the GLBSE days that I when I setup btct.co I knew I needed to get other people involved somehow.  I really hope they're right on this one.

Sometimes, I wish there were more gatekeepers who bothered to take a look at new assets. But like I've said before, why should they?

"Hey, here's 5BTC, go mad. Oh, and if you have plenty of time, feel free to spend your time reading this elaborate document for no further benefit"

.b

[freedomno1]

Another imminent crash coming, if the support at 0.0008 does not hold, it would be a freefall back to IPO price!

It broke.  Now 0.00073 at Bitfunder.

2 weeks to break the 0.0005 price might have been optimistic.  Everything happens faster with Bitcoin!

It is painful to see over 50% loss within a few days.
But people got to learn and move on, be wary of any "Asicminer 2.0 scam" in the future.
It is their last chance to sell the shares before they are worth nothing...

There is still value there.  AMC owns 6 avalons.  That's probably worth 900 BTC.

Maybe Ken will invest in ASICMINER with his cash hoard.  That could increase value.  

Well there is an old saying
If you can't beat them
Join them

[burnside]

Very true. Having a poorly run investment exchange is just welcoming government problems. Look at what happened to mtgox. Obviously that is a different scenario, but it shows that you have to run a tight ship. Having a bitcoin securities exchange that is irresponsible as far as assets it allows is asking for problems. The concept of wild west investing when using bitcoin should be abandoned when it is obvious that the asset is a delusion investment.

Bitfunder/BTCTC/others: please be responsible in what you allow to be listed. Fancy spreadsheets, "estimates" and big promises should be considered worthless. At least have a warning on specific assets that (a) do not have hardware in hand (b) are heavily based on research/development before profit occurs (c) cashflow will not occur for over 3 months.

I keep seeing these assets being listed that are basically "Ordered asic chips from xyc. They are expected to be here in 3-6 months. Pay off my initial cost, believe my estimates and share in the mined bitcoin". Its awful.

To me it is definitely important to maintain the integrity of the exchange.  If you look through the AMC thread, (if it hasn't been self-moderated out?) you'll see that myself and many of those involved with BTC-TC have been asking questions and pointing out problems.  We tend to get drowned out in the excitement, and as you can see by how quickly the asset was approved, it's obvious to me that at least some of the (there are 20+ now) mods were also excited.

I'm not sure yet how this will ultimately pan out.  Ken seems to be putting in the man hours, trying to get things together.  I really don't feel like this is an outright Pirateat40 kind of deal.  Does that mean I think it will succeed?  I'm not sure.  I believe they already hash, I believe they will make a chip, I believe they'll probably even get their unit out the door.  What I'm not sure of is if they can do it before everyone else does, or if they can do it in sufficient volume.

This is undeniably extremely high risk to be investing in.  When I bought my first 100 ASICMINER shares on GLBSE I was almost certain I was going to lose it.  When I bought my first 100 shares of NYAN.B I was almost certain I would not lose it.  So go figure.  Those 100 ASICMINER shares have made up for all my GLBSE losses.

AMC isn't even a company, it is only a unit under VMC. How could it be approved for public trading?

Most sites just charge a fee and you are listed.  Your contract could say that you will use the money to 'Kill Whitey' and you could still be trading.

I had thought BTCT.co would be different as they do have a review process, but they failed miserably in this instance.  It looks like buyers there lost 750 BTC in the last 2 days so maybe changes will be made.

More likely not though.

My understanding is that AMC and VMC are two separate companies, with contractual agreements between each other.  This structure is not unlike the ASICMINER arrangement, though I have not picked apart all the details.  (read Deprived's posts on this, they are fairly informative.)

I'm not sure yet this is a complete failure.  What the investors paid 0.0025 per share for has not fundamentally changed, so what they wanted when they paid that they got.  There is no loss unless you sell, at which point you no longer have whatever it is you wanted at 0.0025.  Ken definitely seems to have misjudged the market around the IPO, but SDICE did the same thing, and many other issues have had the same problem.  I think the mods that approved it believe that Ken will do his best to fulfill his contract and the obligations he has laid out.  Unfortunately after that there is no "IPO management" behind the process, so Ken was free to post the shares at whatever he wanted.

What I really don't get is:

  Why did people think 2 days ago that 0.0025 was a great deal?
  And now, two days later, with minimal changes to the underlying issue, think it's not a great deal?
  On an asset that per stated plans, will take months to deliver?

The market really doesn't make any sense to me sometimes and trying to make sense of it really hurts my brain.

If there are changes to be made it's going to require more manpower to help filter better and to help the issuers plan their IPO's better.  I've been discussing getting more people involved lately, I will continue to pursue those avenues.

Cheers.