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coderrr
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June 30, 2011, 06:16:22 PM
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netrin
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July 05, 2011, 06:42:11 PM
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Hey guys I'm interested in getting people's thoughts on this.

- see all addresses, including change

- see which addresses are linked together (does recursive expansion of address linkages)

- select which address(es) to send from, rather than letting the client to chose for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA_O6Boi7Xo

So what can you do about this? If you don’t have any Bitcoin yet then you can just make sure to use separate wallets for addresses you don’t want being mixed together.

That’s why I’ve made a patch to the official client which allows you to send from _only_ a single specific address.

I’ve added a ‘Send From Address’ tab to the main interface. It actually contains information which was impossible to get from the client before. That is, every address in your wallet and the balance thereof. This includes addresses which were created for the change of your outgoing transactions.

YES with a capital FANTASTIC!

I'm not even trying to be anonymous, but I still have a dozen wallets to keep track of 'accounts'. These patches bring us a long way toward personal financial control. I'd like to similarly be able to right click on a group of linked addresses and export them into a separate wallet... (as well as import wallets). I'm very happy to see all addresses, whether used in a transaction or not! Perhaps the ability to generate 'x' for the keypool buffer (and maybe delete unused addresses) would be handy.

I look forward to seeing your patch in the mainline along with encrypted keys!

Muchas gracias!

Greenlandic tupilak. Hand carved, traditional cursed bone figures. Sorry, polar bear, walrus and human remains not available for export.
netrin
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July 13, 2011, 06:06:51 PM
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I've repatched my changes onto v0.3.24rc1, see here: https://github.com/coderrr/bitcoin/commit/b32016a314bcbb15c97f14c733a8f49d43c5e8b2

I'll release new builds once the official v0.3.24 is released

I'm surprised this post generated so little chatter. Have you re-patched 0.3.24?

Greenlandic tupilak. Hand carved, traditional cursed bone figures. Sorry, polar bear, walrus and human remains not available for export.
Mike Hearn
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July 13, 2011, 07:22:34 PM
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I hadn't seen it before. It looks neat. I worry about UI complexity though. This is definitely a power user feature.
SgtSpike
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July 13, 2011, 08:01:04 PM
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I'm an interested Windows user!
netrin
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July 14, 2011, 01:26:14 AM
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I hadn't seen it before. It looks neat. I worry about UI complexity though. This is definitely a power user feature.

Well maybe, but I am driven batty by the opacity of the C++ client. Only the destination address is available (even if you double click the transaction). I find all the hidden features make it more complicated to use and understand.

Users don't understand why they should need to backup (again and again). They don't understand why it is not anonymous or how it could be. They don't understand 'copying' a wallet and certainly not the implications. I don't think users are dumb but the client is making them dumb. Even if a user never uses the 'addresses' tab, simply showing them their own addresses might produce an ah-ha moment.


Hey Coderrr, do you think you could release a 32-bit linux build?

Greenlandic tupilak. Hand carved, traditional cursed bone figures. Sorry, polar bear, walrus and human remains not available for export.
old_engineer
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July 14, 2011, 01:44:04 AM
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I'm all for it!  This is exactly what seems to be needed.  Can this get into the main release as an "advanced" option selection?
QuantumMechanic
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July 14, 2011, 02:03:55 AM
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Can this get into the main release as an "advanced" option selection?
Was just about to say the same thing.
HostFat
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July 14, 2011, 06:43:27 AM
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Can you make a Pull Request?

As online most secure Bitcoin wallet I currently advise Greenaddress - A good exchange / gateway Ripple, with support for multisig, since 2007: The Rock Trading (ref)
VENDO BITCOIN | CONTANTI - POSTEPAY - ALTRO | HOSTFAT.TK - 370-3244934 - Bitcoin Foundation Italia - Blog: http://theupwind.blogspot.it
SgtSpike
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July 14, 2011, 07:42:23 AM
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Says it's not a valid Win32 application...?
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July 14, 2011, 03:18:37 PM
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It's better to put a pull request and see responses Wink

As online most secure Bitcoin wallet I currently advise Greenaddress - A good exchange / gateway Ripple, with support for multisig, since 2007: The Rock Trading (ref)
VENDO BITCOIN | CONTANTI - POSTEPAY - ALTRO | HOSTFAT.TK - 370-3244934 - Bitcoin Foundation Italia - Blog: http://theupwind.blogspot.it
SgtSpike
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July 14, 2011, 04:28:46 PM
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This is very interesting... on my work computer's wallet, all addresses except for one are linked together.  Shocked  Haven't checked my home computer's wallet yet.
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July 14, 2011, 04:32:52 PM
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This is very interesting... on my work computer's wallet, all addresses except for one are linked together.  Shocked  Haven't checked my home computer's wallet yet.

Yes, welcome to bitcoin ;P
New challenge for you:  Reverse it, so that I can type in any address and find out what other addresses are associated with it.  Smiley
netrin
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July 14, 2011, 05:08:04 PM
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This is very interesting... on my work computer's wallet, all addresses except for one are linked together.  Shocked  Haven't checked my home computer's wallet yet.

Yes, welcome to bitcoin ;P

Hey Coderrr, how many transactions back makes a link? Are C and E linked?:

A -> B -> C

A -> D -> E

I'm asking because I've done a lot of work to 'force' this property by splitting my coins into multiple wallets. I might like to merge many of the wallets (with different keys) if the clients start to behave predictably.

Greenlandic tupilak. Hand carved, traditional cursed bone figures. Sorry, polar bear, walrus and human remains not available for export.
SgtSpike
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July 14, 2011, 06:55:08 PM
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Question:  How do you know which address is the change address?
SgtSpike
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July 14, 2011, 07:02:50 PM
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Question:  How do you know which address is the change address?

Your client knows which part of the transaction is the change because you own the key for that address.
Ahhhh, good point.  From the outside then, it would be much more difficult to 100% associate such addresses.
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July 14, 2011, 07:19:11 PM
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Question:  How do you know which address is the change address?

Your client knows which part of the transaction is the change because you own the key for that address.
Ahhhh, good point.  From the outside then, it would be much more difficult to 100% associate such addresses.

From the outside you have a 50/50 chance AT WORST assuming you're looking at a tx from an official bitcoin client.  My guess is most of the time you have a much better chance at guessing which part of the transaction is the change than 50/50.  For example, on a transaction where the payment is 1 BTC and the change is 2.0291 BTC, it's pretty obvious which part is the change.  I haven't done too much research on how often change amts are obvious but I just decided to be conservative and assume they're always identifiable.
Oh definitely - I won't disagree with you there.  But that's why I said 100%...

Still, that would be an interesting project to undertake.
QuantumMechanic
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July 15, 2011, 12:10:54 AM
 #18

I'd like it be be in the main client, but I'd like it to be called "privacy mode", as opposed to "advanced view", for its educational effect. 

For further educational effect, privacy mode could enable informational warnings that let you know which addresses/identites are being linked during a transaction.

If address labels have multiple entries: identity, one to distinguish same-identity addresses, and an "Is Reused?" checkbox for send addresses that you know or expect get reused with multiple people, then the messages generated can be much more personalized and succinct, and will hit home better.

Imagine if when you tried to send some bitcoins you got a warning like this:

Quote
WARNING!

This transaction will reveal to

ShadyDude:

That you own 957 BTC minus the 2 you're currently sending to them, and that you received 955.5 of them from RichMistress on June 2, 2011 at 11:38 AM (for extra effect, assume her identity is public knowledge because you know she reuses addresses with multiple people Wink), and 1.5 from address 1B... on May 1, 2011 at 4:56 PM.

RichMistress:

That you're sending 2 BTC to address 1M... right now, and that you received 1.5 from address 1B... on May 1, 2011 at 4:56 PM.

Wife: 

That you're sending 2 BTC to address 1M... right now, and that you received 955.5 BTC from RichMistress on July 12, 2011 at 11:38 AM.

If this is too revealing, then use the Send To Address tab to manually select the addresses to send from.

Or maybe replace ShadyDude with Wikileaks' public address, and RichMistress with BusinessIPatronize (who happens to reuse the same address and needed to send you a refund one time, and who is now being subpoenaed by the Stasi into identifying you as the owner of the address the sent the refund to in order to prove you donated to Wikileaks).

Clearly address reuse is really bad for privacy, and the consequences are not internalized to the address re-users, so I think new address requests (and labeling) should be automated for all clients, not just privacy-conscious ones.

Sorry if this is obvious or flawed - I'm new to this stuff - but here's an idea for how to do this:

This can be done by having a contacts list, and a single master public key from each of their contacts, from which they can deterministically derive as many addresses as they want.  These addresses can't be associated by outsiders as long as the master public key is kept secret.  See this post by Stefan http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19137.msg318989#msg318989 and the one below by gmaxwell about choosing a sequence of serial numbers for how it might be implemented: .

Of course lost master private keys will be a problem, but this can be mitigated by users having (untrusted) storage servers that serve the master public keys to their contacts (the same one that syncs your everyday-use wallet between devices?).  This way they can be easily changed at any time, all at once, and in one place, if necessary, and the contacts will always check that they're up to date.

Hopefully privacy mode would also turn on Tor as well.

Considering the "Bitcoin is anonymous" spin in the media, I really think we're going to have a lot of people unwittingly find themselves in a lot of trouble with criminals, spouses, friends, governments, etc. if they can't easily learn how Bitcoin is working for them in practice.  Somebody said here that users aren't stupid, but the client is making them stupid, and I completely agree.
Gavin Andresen
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July 15, 2011, 12:55:23 AM
 #19

Does this patch give any sort of warning if bitcoin isn't being used through a proxy?

I worry that a user will be REALLY careful keeping all their addresses separated so their ordinary transactions are separate from their fund-the-oppositition transactions, and then will get busted by the Secret Police who were eavesdropping on their bitcoin IP traffic at their ISP.

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
old_engineer
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July 15, 2011, 03:44:08 AM
 #20

Does this patch give any sort of warning if bitcoin isn't being used through a proxy?

I worry that a user will be REALLY careful keeping all their addresses separated so their ordinary transactions are separate from their fund-the-oppositition transactions, and then will get busted by the Secret Police who were eavesdropping on their bitcoin IP traffic at their ISP.


They're clearly separate issues that can be tackled one at a time.  This patch increases privacy with respect to all transaction partners, and those that can identify the transaction partners, but does not change anything with respect to eavesdroppers.  Which is fine - why conflate the two issues?
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