ASICS killing BTC ?

[Stephen Gornick]

however if it's now impossible to state anything negative towards btc

Ugghhh ...  FFS.    This thread is in the BITCOIN DISCUSSION board. If this thread is not about Bitcoin but instead is about Bitcoin vs. alt coins, then the thread should be moved to the altcoin board.  Or off to wherever alt coin conversation should occur.

But if the argument is that ASICs are killing BTC, then why would Litecoin or Ripple or anything alt-related have any relevance here?

[1714894337]

1714894337

[btcrich]

OP, you don't understand how Bitcoin works. Owning hashing power does not mean you control the network. Miners do not control the network, full nodes do. Meaning nodes which maintain the blockchain and relay new blocks and new transactions.

The only reason why 3 is bad is because it lowers the bar for one of these companies to start a 51% attack if they desired to destroy Bitcoin and their investment with it.

Miners don't control the network?  Only full nodes do?  What???

Sorry, but every miner out there is securing the blockchain.  No one "controls" the network.  Only a miner with 51% can manipulate the network.

[hazek]

OP, you don't understand how Bitcoin works. Owning hashing power does not mean you control the network. Miners do not control the network, full nodes do. Meaning nodes which maintain the blockchain and relay new blocks and new transactions.

The only reason why 3 is bad is because it lowers the bar for one of these companies to start a 51% attack if they desired to destroy Bitcoin and their investment with it.

Miners don't control the network?  Only full nodes do?  What???

Sorry, but every miner out there is securing the blockchain.  No one "controls" the network.  Only a miner with 51% can manipulate the network.

You are right, I should have been more precise. Each full node is sovereign in control of Bitcoin for it's own use meaning every full node decides for itself what Bitcoin is and you are of course correct, no one controls Bitcoin. Not in the least the miners.

[Liquid]

OP, you don't understand how Bitcoin works. Owning hashing power does not mean you control the network. Miners do not control the network, full nodes do. Meaning nodes which maintain the blockchain and relay new blocks and new transactions.

The only reason why 3 is bad is because it lowers the bar for one of these companies to start a 51% attack if they desired to destroy Bitcoin and their investment with it.

Miners don't control the network?  Only full nodes do?  What???

Sorry, but every miner out there is securing the blockchain.  No one "controls" the network.  Only a miner with 51% can manipulate the network.

+1

ASICS are not Killing Bitcoin but securing the network more and more and this will increase the value

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIivL1TYV1g

[meanig]

I GPU mined for two years and it was complete pain in the hole. Noise, heat, crashing while I was away for a few days, worrying about the cards catching fire, burned out PSUs etc. The daily problems were endless. In contrast plugging in a block erupter is simple and you don't even need a dedicated PC to do it. Being laptop friendly makes them accessible to a whole new range of people. The ROI isn't guaranteed but mining ROI has never been guaranteed so that shouldn't be a consideration.

Mining technology is always about first mover advantage and the handful of companies that have made the first ASICs deserve to be rewarded. This isn't going to kill Bitcoin. Saying that it will is just as absurd as saying GPU mining would kill Bitcoin when Artforz was the only person who knew how to do it.

[DoomDumas]

Seems that ASICS is have a detrimental impact on BTC.

(1) A huge amount of hashing power is now in the hands of companies that can stamp out one set of chips after another.  Few seem to make it to retail (i.e. BFL)

(2) Most of the former GPU miners, once a large support base for the coin, have lost interest due to the BFL fiasco and the fact Avalon shipped only a tiny number of retail devices

(3) Concentration of network power in the hands of a few is a disaster.  Precisely the opposite of what BTC was supposed to be all about

(4) Raw gh/s figures are irrelevant given that only a tiny number of firms have ASICS designs.  THESE COMPANIES NOW EFFECTIVELY CONTROL THE NETWORK

LTC is looking very strong right now.  Holding its USD value as BTC falls.

The two may meet in the middle

1) Few seem to retail ?   I know 3 Asic manufacturer that delivered working chip as today... BFL, you can order rigs and chips.  Avalon, sold Rig, selling chips, AsicMiner you can order rigs.
All 3 are selling, with rigs with a price range from 1 to thousands BTC ! I call it Asic for the mass.

2) My GPUs are still runing, and I manage to economise enought BTC and $ to have product from the 3 manufacturer.

3) I agree that AsicMiner own too much power, and this could lead to a disaster, but im pretty sure this is a temporary situation, other big farming operation are bulding, many more Asic will be availlable for the mass, at cheaper and cheaper price.. just let this 6 month to a year, and power distribution of mining will be much more decentralized.

4) 3 control the network ?  as for now, thay are all selling mining power to whoever want to buy.. Just control your finance and order some.  I've taken a second job to pay for my asics, and keep this second job to pile more fore future gen asic.  I made the choice to be on board and doing what I need to !

[DoomDumas]

(4) Raw gh/s figures are irrelevant given that only a tiny number of firms have ASICS designs.  THESE COMPANIES NOW EFFECTIVELY CONTROL THE NETWORK

AMD is the only manufacturer with a GPU design that has 3,200 ALUs, in addition to having BIT_ALIGN_INT.   Therefore, ONE COMPANY (AMD) EFFECTIVELY CONTROLS THE LITECOIN NETWORK

[see what I did there?]

+1     very nice !

[Moebius327]

(4) Raw gh/s figures are irrelevant given that only a tiny number of firms have ASICS designs.  THESE COMPANIES NOW EFFECTIVELY CONTROL THE NETWORK

AMD is the only manufacturer with a GPU design that has 3,200 ALUs, in addition to having BIT_ALIGN_INT.   Therefore, ONE COMPANY (AMD) EFFECTIVELY CONTROLS THE LITECOIN NETWORK

[see what I did there?]

I cannot agree more.

[illpoet]

the thing about owning enough hash power to mess up the network is that anyone who has that kind of money is obviously really into money so it wouldn't make any sense to attack the network when you could make more money not atttacking it.   Asic adoption kind or reminds of how bad it sucked to go to middle school from elementary school. it was huge and they made you take showers with strangers.  after a little while tho it turned out it wasn't so bad.    Transitions are always scary.     Bitcoin is way too big for some rich a hole with a house full of specialized circuitry to take over.  There's too many of us blue collar a holes with garages full of mining gear. 

[Vivisector999]

You are forgetting the way the US Gov't is trying to shut down Bitcoin atm, right now would be the perfect time for them to attack and kill the coin.  Not saying they would go to such extreme measures, but the way things are atm, BTC is at it's most vulnerable point in almost it's entire history.  This will however settle once more ASIC miners are shipped to more and more people. 

[kjj]

Every time the price dips on the exchanges, a new batch of boogeyman-seeking posts escape the speculation board and end up here.

Not long ago, the preferred boogeyman was "the manipulator".  This week, looks like ASICs are taking the heat.  Next week, it'll be the Winkelvoss twins, or the NSA, or the flying spaghetti monster.

Einstein was wrong, compound interest isn't the most powerful force in the universe.  That crown belongs to the insatiable hunger of the human mind for finding false causes for chaos.

[jubalix]

yawn PPC sidesteps 90% of this entire problem/argument/issue

[DeathAndTaxes]

yawn PPC sidesteps 90% of this entire problem/argument/issue

So does PayPal but they both require centralized control.

[Rassah]

Hey, I've been wondering, Litecoins are not immune to ASIC mining, they just need ASICs with a whole lot of memory to do it, meaning they would be way more complex and expensive. Once Litecoin goes up in value to the point where it would be worth it to invest in Litecoin ASICs, won't Litecoin become even more centralized, just because Litecoin ASICs will be very expensive to own and owned by a select few wealthy types, compared to Bitcoin, for which ASICs are dirt cheap (after initial design expense)? Right now it seems like Litecoins are more decentralized, but I fear eventually Bitcoin miners to Litecoin miners will be like Honda owners to Ferrari owners.

[Littleshop]

Hey, I've been wondering, Litecoins are not immune to ASIC mining, they just need ASICs with a whole lot of memory to do it, meaning they would be way more complex and expensive. Once Litecoin goes up in value to the point where it would be worth it to invest in Litecoin ASICs, won't Litecoin become even more centralized, just because Litecoin ASICs will be very expensive to own and owned by a select few wealthy types, compared to Bitcoin, for which ASICs are dirt cheap (after initial design expense)? Right now it seems like Litecoins are more decentralized, but I fear eventually Bitcoin miners to Litecoin miners will be like Honda owners to Ferrari owners.

I do not agree.  Litecoins are in technicality ASIC mineable but in reality there is no point.   To build an ASIC that would mine scrypt well would be to get near or even exceed the cost of using a GPU to do the same thing.  So you could build a scrypt ASIC but it would not make sense.  In the end you would have an item that could not do anything else and it would have low resale value. 

[bluemeanie1]

Seems that ASICS is have a detrimental impact on BTC.

(1) A huge amount of hashing power is now in the hands of companies that can stamp out one set of chips after another.  Few seem to make it to retail (i.e. BFL)

(2) Most of the former GPU miners, once a large support base for the coin, have lost interest due to the BFL fiasco and the fact Avalon shipped only a tiny number of retail devices

(3) Concentration of network power in the hands of a few is a disaster.  Precisely the opposite of what BTC was supposed to be all about

(4) Raw gh/s figures are irrelevant given that only a tiny number of firms have ASICS designs.  THESE COMPANIES NOW EFFECTIVELY CONTROL THE NETWORK

LTC is looking very strong right now.  Holding its USD value as BTC falls.

The two may meet in the middle

Proof Of Work is not an effective way to achieve consensus in a p2p network.  http://www.links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf

the only thing it achieved is an industry for SHA-256 hashing.

[Hippie Tech]

(4) Raw gh/s figures are irrelevant given that only a tiny number of firms have ASICS designs.  THESE COMPANIES NOW EFFECTIVELY CONTROL THE NETWORK

AMD is the only manufacturer with a GPU design that has 3,200 ALUs, in addition to having BIT_ALIGN_INT.   Therefore, ONE COMPANY (AMD) EFFECTIVELY CONTROLS THE LITECOIN NETWORK

[see what I did there?]

I see that..

-Nvidia could have and should have been there, if it were not for the lack of driver support
-AMD gpus are and have been readily available, WORLD WIDE
-TMSC founderies is a monopoly

Asics and the greedy that pre ordered them, have likely damaged BTC beyond repair as I seriously doubt the masses will buy into this USB'd pipe dream for another round.

Some call it, 'the asic scam'. I say its Bitcoin's 2nd premine.

HT xD

[DeathAndTaxes]

Hey, I've been wondering, Litecoins are not immune to ASIC mining, they just need ASICs with a whole lot of memory to do it, meaning they would be way more complex and expensive. Once Litecoin goes up in value to the point where it would be worth it to invest in Litecoin ASICs, won't Litecoin become even more centralized, just because Litecoin ASICs will be very expensive to own and owned by a select few wealthy types, compared to Bitcoin, for which ASICs are dirt cheap (after initial design expense)? Right now it seems like Litecoins are more decentralized, but I fear eventually Bitcoin miners to Litecoin miners will be like Honda owners to Ferrari owners.

I do not agree.  Litecoins are in technicality ASIC mineable but in reality there is no point.   To build an ASIC that would mine scrypt well would be to get near or even exceed the cost of using a GPU to do the same thing.  So you could build a scrypt ASIC but it would not make sense.  In the end you would have an item that could not do anything else and it would have low resale value. 

That isn't true.  It isn't true even with full strength scrypt but the point is moot as the scrypt used in Litecoin was intentionally weakened significantly (2^10, 1, 1).  It is more than 100x less memory hard than the default for low security applications (2^14, 8, 1) and closer to 8000x less memory hard then what is recommended for high security applications (2^20, 8, 1).

[jonoiv]

They have ruined my personal experience of bitcoin..  but thats more to do with BFL than asics.  I wish i had spent my money on GPUs 15 months ago and not pre ordered with BFL.  I think by the time i do get my asic it will be a long wait t get ROI. 

Asics have defiantly changed the game, not sure if for the better or worse yet though.  Maybe we will see more specialised hardware for LTC soon, I just hope it's not from BFL.

[MagicBit15]

Seems that ASICS is have a detrimental impact on BTC.

(1) A huge amount of hashing power is now in the hands of companies that can stamp out one set of chips after another.  Few seem to make it to retail (i.e. BFL)

(2) Most of the former GPU miners, once a large support base for the coin, have lost interest due to the BFL fiasco and the fact Avalon shipped only a tiny number of retail devices

(3) Concentration of network power in the hands of a few is a disaster.  Precisely the opposite of what BTC was supposed to be all about

(4) Raw gh/s figures are irrelevant given that only a tiny number of firms have ASICS designs.  THESE COMPANIES NOW EFFECTIVELY CONTROL THE NETWORK

LTC is looking very strong right now.  Holding its USD value as BTC falls.

The two may meet in the middle

How do people like this think their smart? Like is their an over 18 rule on this forum?