BFL refund through Paypal claim

[solitude]

How many of you have been successful in getting a refund through paypal, after BFL illegally denied your refund?

[1715026801]

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[Zanatos666]

How many of you have been successful in getting a refund through paypal, after BFL illegally denied your refund?

How do you consider it illegal when it states "All Sales Are Final"?

[Mota]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

[Kuroth]

I am working on it and just open disputes on Paypal for all the orders I had with BFL.   Shortly after that I got two Credit Emails fro BFL that I "think" is BFL refunding me...  We will see..

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad to get away from  this company..   Just VERY shady scummy people if you ask me..  I dont give a shit if they actually do get their back orders cleared by End of Aug(Which I bet 100 BTC they wont but I know Josh would not have the balls to take my bet) I STILL will be happy I will NEVER do business with them.  And will continue to do my best to get others not to place orders with them..

Oh BTW they banned me fro their forums this morning..  What is funny is they redirect me to here..  Bitcoin Talk..  If I was in charge of Bitcoin talk I would sue their ass for doing that..

[suryc]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

That is absolutely correct.

In USA even though you can post "ALL SALES FINAL", it is illegal to enforce that policy in practice.
Moreover,  a retailer must always offer a refund when merchandise is defective, damaged or otherwise not as advertised. The words "sold as is" or "final sale" are meaningless insofar as consumer protection laws always offer some form of redress.

[Zanatos666]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

[k9quaint]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

That is absolutely correct.

In USA even though you can post "ALL SALES FINAL", it is illegal to enforce that policy in practice.
Moreover,  a retailer must always offer a refund when merchandise is defective, damaged or otherwise not as advertised. The words "sold as is" or "final sale" are meaningless insofar as consumer protection laws always offer some form of redress.

^^This.

[Flying Hellfish]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

Dude...

You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason.

Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO.

(Bolded in mine)

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident).


Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate.

[suryc]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue.
U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website.

[k9quaint]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue.
U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website.

^^This
It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds.

[Paladin69]

Yes if you haven't received your refund by now you can file complaint with the Federal trade commission.  They will advocate for you and make sure you get your funds.

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

You can do this with any product if the business is located in the US.

[Zanatos666]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue.
U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website.

^^This
It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds.

Fanboy I am not.  Yes, I have a Jalapeno, but I also ordered mine in July 2012.  So, someone who ordered 2 months ago who is upset about not getting a refund, I say to them, what do you say to the person who has waited almost a year to get their unit?

I refer you to my post below and the FTC laws governing All Sales Finals and the legality of them offering refunds.  Like it or not, they are within their legal right to deny a refund, just like you are within your legal right to ask for, and put in a claim for one.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249125.msg2648214#msg2648214

[PuertoLibre]

If what you said were actually true, I could sell something with a disclaimer that says:

" iBitPush (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

I therefore could sell a totally bogus product that doesn't exist and perpetually keep the customer "on hold" indefinitely because of "endless delays". (Or at the very least 1 year and some days...and counting.)

Sounds good right? That is the point you are making.

[Mota]

I made something for you:



Enjoy!

[k9quaint]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue.
U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website.

^^This
It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds.

Fanboy I am not.  Yes, I have a Jalapeno, but I also ordered mine in July 2012.  So, someone who ordered 2 months ago who is upset about not getting a refund, I say to them, what do you say to the person who has waited almost a year to get their unit?

I refer you to my post below and the FTC laws governing All Sales Finals and the legality of them offering refunds.  Like it or not, they are within their legal right to deny a refund, just like you are within your legal right to ask for, and put in a claim for one.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249125.msg2648214#msg2648214

What you posted deals with when the seller must make information available, not when they must refund their customers.

The rules that govern when a seller must refund are here:
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
Specifically after you missed your shipping date or 30 day window:

When You Must Cancel an Order
 You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
  the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise

In any case, people who want refunds from BFL can go to the FTC. People who don't believe that the FTC will help with refunds can sit on their thumbs.

[Trongersoll]

I'm pretty sure that if no product has been delivered, then no sale has been made.

[Syke]

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:

    the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;

That's pretty clear. If the merchandise has not been shipped, the customer may exercise his option to cancel and you must refund him.

[af_newbie]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

I guess you'd have to argue what is a "sale".  Some might say that sale occurs when the payment is made and product is delivered (sale is completed).  Anything in between is not a sale.
"All sales are final" might refer to "no returns of working products, and/or refunds for any reason".  

"2 months or more" might refer to many months (6-7?), but probably not years.

[newguy05]

I'm pretty sure that if no product has been delivered, then no sale has been made.

exactly, if they delivered the product and the customer wants to return it then the "all sales are final" clause can be argued if taken to small claim court.

If they never delivered the product to begin with, it doesnt apply, you can goto any court in any state or county, and will be ordered to refund the payment back to the customer.

Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely,  as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire?   Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it.  Making things even more complicated, btc is not considered a legal currency in US, so it's no different than if you paid with peanuts to the US legal system, or any country for that matter. Bottomline if you paid with btc, you are at the complete mercy of BFL.

I kept saying it's insane the level of trust people here have and willing to part with their hard earned money/btc on some hopes & dreams without any recourse of getting the money back, but kept getting flamed.

[k9quaint]

I'm pretty sure that if no product has been delivered, then no sale has been made.

exactly, if they delivered the product and the customer wants to return it then the "all sales are final" clause can be argued if taken to small claim court.

If they never delivered the product to begin with, it doesnt apply, you can goto any court in any state or county, and will be ordered to refund the payment back to the customer.

Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely,  as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire?   Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it.  Making things even more complicated, btc is not considered a legal currency in US, so it's no different than if you paid with peanuts to the US legal system, or any country for that matter. Bottomline if you paid with btc, you are at the complete mercy of BFL.

I kept saying it's insane the level of trust people here have and willing to part with their hard earned money/btc on some hopes & dreams without any recourse of getting the money back, but kept getting flamed.

You start by suing the "owner" of the website.