TradeHill - AUD market is now live.

[JeevesNZ]

Do you have an NZ partner in the pipelines?

[1713290309]

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[1713290309]

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[1713290309]

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[faille]

If we have USD on tradehill, can we just withdraw that as AUD into out AU banks?

[digigalt]

Is this a legitimate operation? I'm cautious about putting my money into anything that isn't licensed by ASIC.

I use trade hill a lot and never had any issues

Referral link for 10% off comission is in sig 

Well you will have an issue with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission if this operation isn't licensed by them.

[PatrickHarnett]

I am based in NZ and there is an OTC bitcoinexchange.co.nz site where you could trade in NZ dollars, but not anonymously like on TH.  I'm not around much in July, but I'm not sure how much demand there is for NZD trading. 

As for ASIC, last time I went through the financial services licencing legislation taking deposits/money and/or trading would require authorisation.  This is definitely retail/to-the-public so those things need to be done.  At a minimum, the entity we are dealing with needs to quote their licence number.

[elggawf]

Well you will have an issue with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission if this operation isn't licensed by them.

... and same like my questions to CampBX - if it's not required to register in such a manner, may we please have the name/offices of the attorneys who told you it wasn't necessary (or a scan of the letter from ASIC saying you weren't in their jurisdiction would probably be cool too).

I think their Australian rep needs an ABN too.

[adamstgBit]

Nice.

lets have trade hill support CAD too!

if trade hill accepts many different currencies, this will help bitcoin grow, and will allow businesses from outside of the US to accept bitcoin

keep up the good work guys

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

I am based in NZ and there is an OTC bitcoinexchange.co.nz site where you could trade in NZ dollars, but not anonymously like on TH.  I'm not around much in July, but I'm not sure how much demand there is for NZD trading. 

As for ASIC, last time I went through the financial services licencing legislation taking deposits/money and/or trading would require authorisation.  This is definitely retail/to-the-public so those things need to be done.  At a minimum, the entity we are dealing with needs to quote their licence number.

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the information and the concern. You are absolutely right: trading in this market resembles trading in other regulated markets. However, at this point, Bitcoin is not considered a security or a currency; admittedly, there is debate around this issue both on this forum and across the media. Bitcoin seems to be a whole new entity in-of-itself. At this point, regulators haven't taken a clear stance or asked for the buying or selling of BTC to cease. Other virtual currencies like the Linden dollar already exist and these can be bought or sold for national currencies. Since Tradehill doesn't offer to change currency from say - USD to AUD or from CAD to USD or any other permutation - then we are not a currency exchange. People can only buy or sell BTC using different currencies on our site and not trade one currency for the other.

FYI - Our partner DOES have an ABN number.

Thanks again for the comments. They are on point and will lead to more discussions about BTCs current and future legal status. This will be beneficial for everyone.

Regards,
Adam - Tradehill

[digigalt]

I am based in NZ and there is an OTC bitcoinexchange.co.nz site where you could trade in NZ dollars, but not anonymously like on TH.  I'm not around much in July, but I'm not sure how much demand there is for NZD trading. 

As for ASIC, last time I went through the financial services licencing legislation taking deposits/money and/or trading would require authorisation.  This is definitely retail/to-the-public so those things need to be done.  At a minimum, the entity we are dealing with needs to quote their licence number.

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the information and the concern. You are absolutely right: trading in this market resembles trading in other regulated markets. However, at this point, Bitcoin is not considered a security or a currency; admittedly, there is debate around this issue both on this forum and across the media. Bitcoin seems to be a whole new entity in-of-itself. At this point, regulators haven't taken a clear stance or asked for the buying or selling of BTC to cease. Other virtual currencies like the Linden dollar already exist and these can be bought or sold for national currencies. Since Tradehill doesn't offer to change currency from say - USD to AUD or from CAD to USD or any other permutation - then we are not a currency exchange. People can only buy or sell BTC using different currencies on our site and not trade one currency for the other.

FYI - Our partner DOES have an ABN number.

Thanks again for the comments. They are on point and will lead to more discussions about BTCs current and future legal status. This will be beneficial for everyone.

Regards,
Adam - Tradehill

Could you buy me dinner now? I'd at least like to have a nice meal before I get fucked.

[TheMagikarp]

And can funds be directly transferred back to an Australian bank account?

Yep, they can be!

We can take both deposits and withdrawals in AUD via our local Tradehill partner.

Thanks,
Adam - Tradehill

Sold!

[MrAnderson]

$6-60 deposit fee from your bank. Big margin there.

My bank charges me nothing to add funds to the NAB, which Mt Gox uses.

[kripz]

I am based in NZ and there is an OTC bitcoinexchange.co.nz site where you could trade in NZ dollars, but not anonymously like on TH.  I'm not around much in July, but I'm not sure how much demand there is for NZD trading. 

As for ASIC, last time I went through the financial services licencing legislation taking deposits/money and/or trading would require authorisation.  This is definitely retail/to-the-public so those things need to be done.  At a minimum, the entity we are dealing with needs to quote their licence number.

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the information and the concern. You are absolutely right: trading in this market resembles trading in other regulated markets. However, at this point, Bitcoin is not considered a security or a currency; admittedly, there is debate around this issue both on this forum and across the media. Bitcoin seems to be a whole new entity in-of-itself. At this point, regulators haven't taken a clear stance or asked for the buying or selling of BTC to cease. Other virtual currencies like the Linden dollar already exist and these can be bought or sold for national currencies. Since Tradehill doesn't offer to change currency from say - USD to AUD or from CAD to USD or any other permutation - then we are not a currency exchange. People can only buy or sell BTC using different currencies on our site and not trade one currency for the other.

FYI - Our partner DOES have an ABN number.

Thanks again for the comments. They are on point and will lead to more discussions about BTCs current and future legal status. This will be beneficial for everyone.

Regards,
Adam - Tradehill

Could you buy me dinner now? I'd at least like to have a nice meal before I get fucked.

Elaborate?

[digigalt]

TradeHill's nonchalance toward the ASIC issue doesn't inspire confidence. ASIC doesn't play around. TradeHill isn't listed on the ASIC site, and I'm not sure if TradeHill is exempt from the regulations. Why would I trust my money with an exchange that will probably get its asshole torn asunder by ASIC within the month?

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

TradeHill's nonchalance toward the ASIC issue doesn't inspire confidence. ASIC doesn't play around. TradeHill isn't listed on the ASIC site, and I'm not sure if TradeHill is exempt from the regulations. Why would I trust my money with an exchange that will probably get its asshole torn asunder by ASIC within the month?

Hi Digi,

If you do some research you will find that the ASIC, like the SEC (and other regulatory bodies), only have authority over certain types of financial products; in this case, securities. Most nations more or less define securities as stocks and bonds. The total value of these securities is large but not as large as other unregulated financial products like Interest Rate derivatives or FX derivatives. The total value of the IR derivatives market is at least 200 trillion USD. That's more then all the GDPs of the G20 nations combined. This entire market is not regulated. It is of great debate whether or not these markets should remain unregulated post-crisis.

So, just because a financial product or asset is traded like a stock or bond does not mean it is regulated like one. It would be a far stretch to define Bitcoins as a security. Not to say Bitcoins couldn't be regulated in the future as some type of commodity or other value transfer then falling under the authority of different regulatory body.

I come from a finance background and my full profile is under the thread "Tradehill - who we are" in the forum.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[dood001]

Correct me if wrong but - TradeHill is in the USA and Chile so therefore not even in ASIC jurisdiction. The affiliate in Australia is only accepting money on their behalf - it is a business deal.

[digigalt]

Correct me if wrong but - TradeHill is in the USA and Chile so therefore not even in ASIC jurisdiction. The affiliate in Australia is only accepting money on their behalf - it is a business deal.

It doesn't matter where their physical offices are located if they commit crimes in Australia. Judging by their complete lack of understanding of Australian financial regulations, they'll be committing crimes in Australia fairly soon.

[PatrickHarnett]

TradeHill's nonchalance toward the ASIC issue doesn't inspire confidence. ASIC doesn't play around. TradeHill isn't listed on the ASIC site, and I'm not sure if TradeHill is exempt from the regulations. Why would I trust my money with an exchange that will probably get its asshole torn asunder by ASIC within the month?

Hi Digi,

If you do some research you will find that the ASIC, like the SEC (and other regulatory bodies), only have authority over certain types of financial products; in this case, securities. Most nations more or less define securities as stocks and bonds. The total value of these securities is large but not as large as other unregulated financial products like Interest Rate derivatives or FX derivatives. The total value of the IR derivatives market is at least 200 trillion USD. That's more then all the GDPs of the G20 nations combined. This entire market is not regulated. It is of great debate whether or not these markets should remain unregulated post-crisis.

So, just because a financial product or asset is traded like a stock or bond does not mean it is regulated like one. It would be a far stretch to define Bitcoins as a security. Not to say Bitcoins couldn't be regulated in the future as some type of commodity or other value transfer then falling under the authority of different regulatory body.

I come from a finance background and my full profile is under the thread "Tradehill - who we are" in the forum.

Thanks,
Adam

 

Hi Adam,

Unfortunately, the short answer is "no".  While Tradehill will probably not need an authorisation, your rep will (or any part of TH based/covered by Australian law).  Accepting money/deposits from members of the public for something that might or might not have value in the future will probably fall under the definition of derivatives which is quite wide.  The local regulations are much wider than equities (securities).

For some business I was doing in Melbourne I needed the company to become a licensed financial advisor even though we were dealing wholesale electricity derivatives as principle in each contract.  I knew the legislation better than our specialist auditors (which was funny at the time).

If you want to follow up more off-line, get in touch.  If you can't find an address, I exchanged an email with Lance on Wednesday when I found the "forward" button on my browser initiated a double transfer.  On the plus side, I think NZ is a bit easier, but I'd need to re-read the new 1 July legislation that's just come into force.

Cheers, Patrick 

p.s. will be back trading at TH once Gox delivers my USD by snail - four days and counting . . .

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Hey Patrick,

Sure, I will PM you so we can speak directly. You can definitely help me understand more about the local markets. At this point, given my history in finance, I have to stand by previous assertions. Albeit, I believe healthy and respectful disagreements/arguments are excellent! Either way, let's talk. Perhaps we can work together to get clear and definite answers for Australia.

And yes, Lance is our new guy - people think he is great.

Speak soon!
Adam
 

[PatrickHarnett]

Adam, pm received.  Will be in touch.  Always fun when playing in other jurisdictions - I'm sure we can make it work.

hmmm, I have a little company that's going to be based in Brisbane and well need a financial services license for that - timeframe is six months away so probably wouldn't suit the current urgency.  Maybe we should do our capital raise in BTC rather than AUD?

[kripz]

This is what caused the recent drop in prices! It was all those Australians waiting for a way to get AUD out before they sold their bitcoins. Now that this exchange is open all those bitcoins are getting sold!

*Please note: I have no evidence this is true. It might just be a coincidence, but it might be a giant government conspiracy. Or aliens, might be them too.

I did, not via TH, it was through other means. But essentially a new method opened up that allowed me to convert BTC to AUD.

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

TradeHill is proud to announce that we will now be trading AUD on our exchange.

We've received a huge demand for AUD and we had been holding back while we finalized some details.

TradeHill will be represented by Jaden Rubinstein in Australia.

This will most likely provide a huge opportunity for arbitrage immediately as Australia looks to purchase Bitcoins.


Thanks for all the great support.

I would really advise against using Individuals as partners in foreign countries, the deposit information on your website for AUD also seems strange since no account name is used, just a Commonwealth Bank account type "Complete Access".

Also is this your partners ABN registration details:

http://www.abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?abn=79392772409

Really if Tradehill is going to take off you need to have a more professional setup then having local individuals accept money on your behalf.

We've known him for years and he's been working with us for quite a while.
I agree simply letting local individuals open an account hold funds would be a horrible idea.
Also if we were doing that we would already have an account in 50+ countries. It's too risky, not professional and not our plan.
-Jered