BFL (BF Labs Inc; Butterfly Labs) officially refusing to refund their customers.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I asked for a refund and was refused here is a copy of the email for your amusement.

I am going to challenge paypal even though it has passed the 45 days because according to their terms you can not take money for products that they do not have to sell.

So I will see what happens - not holding my breath though

I am in the UK


Quote
From: Butterfly Labs Inc [office@butterflylabs.com]
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 5:49 PM
To: Chris J R******
Subject: Re: Order Number 100034910

Thank you for contacting Butterfly Labs.  According to the terms you agreed to on checkout, all sales are final.  Now that shipping of orders has begun, refunds will not be processed.  Your order will be shipped per your position in the order queue.  Thank you for your patience and understanding.


For Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/>

Best regards,
Sabina
BF Labs, Inc. Customer Service


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Chris R**** <Chris.*****.co.uk> wrote:

Hello,

I placed my order on the 6th Arpil order number 100034910, I was aware it was a pre order item - but you did state that it would be 2 months! I can not wait any longer and I require the money due to a change in circumstances.

Therefore I would kindly request that you cancel my order and refund the money.

Many thanks

Chris R*****

If BFL is not officially refusing to refund their customers, then they better get somebody in official capacity to state otherwise. And I don't mean user Inaba, albeit BFL_Josh would suffice.

It's to their best interest to make a public statement on this forum stating their current policy on refunds, or... (haven't figured that part out yet  ).

[mufa23]

Phin, I haven't been following this too closely, but I've heard some users complain about it in other threads.

Are they refusing to refund ALL orders, or just the newer preorders? For instance: I have a pre-order from August. Will they not refund it if I asked? (not that I want to)

[Cluster2k]

To be fair it does state on their site that it's 2 months or more for the order to ship.  All sales are final.  Products are shipping.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

To be fair it does state on their site that it's 2 months or more for the order to ship.  All sales are final.  Products are shipping.

It's my understanding that if a person's specific unit isn't about to be shipped, then they're entitled to a refund via simply asking for one. If one is not given, then the supplier is breaking the law, a great song by Judas Priest, BTW.

[Quix]

Remember to read anything before agreeing to it. Very shady though, I would be wary about giving them any money.

[Loredo]

I'm thinking someone needs to go back to the time - March or April (?) - when BFL announced that they needed all to reconfirm their orders, and if they failed to do so their orders would be canceled.  At that time, the "no refunds" was first stated; it has recently been re-stated in the cloth of "production management."

The language and representations made in those announcements are important in this. 

[Flying Hellfish]

To be fair it does state on their site that it's 2 months or more for the order to ship.  All sales are final.  Products are shipping.

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

[Phinnaeus Gage]

To be fair it does state on their site that it's 2 months or more for the order to ship.  All sales are final.  Products are shipping.

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

For those who need glasses, he wrote...

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

FWIW, that's the new +1 since those are now being deleted on this forum.

[nexus99]

If there is so much heartburn about this you should just lawyer up and prove your point. By now I think its very clear to everyone that you should not expect product for months and months and months when you buy from BFL. They even say so on their web site.

[Flying Hellfish]

If there is so much heartburn about this you should just lawyer up and prove your point. By now I think its very clear to everyone that you should not expect product for months and months and months when you buy from BFL. They even say so on their web site.

I am not entirely sure if this is directed at me or not but, I don't need to lawyer up, I don't live in the same country BFL operates in and BFL doesn't and never will have any of my money.  I suspect there are some people at least talking to their lawyers and the FTC.

As far as everyone know how long it will take to ship, hogwash the BTC community is growing by the day and too many Noobs get suckered in, so a few of us try our best to keep the information out there. 

There are also people who don't understand their rights (even if they know ALL about BFL and have orders with them), so I am sharing with them stuff I have found that I feel is relevant and encouraging any customers that are asking for refunds and being denied them to do a little research and read the link I provided, if you wish to continue down the path with an FTC complaint or lawyer up they are free to do so.

Why exactly do you want us to stop discussing it?  Feel free to put me on ignore and ignore these types of threads and your problem is solved and we can carry on like adults.

[nexus99]

If there is so much heartburn about this you should just lawyer up and prove your point. By now I think its very clear to everyone that you should not expect product for months and months and months when you buy from BFL. They even say so on their web site.

I am not entirely sure if this is directed at me or not but, I don't need to lawyer up, I don't live in the same country BFL operates in and BFL doesn't and never will have any of my money.  I suspect there are some people at least talking to their lawyers and the FTC.

As far as everyone know how long it will take to ship, hogwash the BTC community is growing by the day and too many Noobs get suckered in, so a few of us try our best to keep the information out there. 

There are also people who don't understand their rights (even if they know ALL about BFL and have orders with them), so I am sharing with them stuff I have found that I feel is relevant and encouraging any customers that are asking for refunds and being denied them to do a little research and read the link I provided, if you wish to continue down the path with an FTC complaint or lawyer up they are free to do so.

Why exactly do you want us to stop discussing it?  Feel free to put me on ignore and ignore these types of threads and your problem is solved and we can carry on like adults.

What do noobs get suckered into exactly? People should be encouraged to read the terms of the agreement they enter into before they hand over their money. In all cases caveat emptor. And if consumers do feel they have been wronged they should be encouraged to take action.  And to be clear I did not ask anyone to stop discussing anything. Those are your words.

To me your post smacks of sour grapes.

[TheSwede75]

I asked for a refund and was refused here is a copy of the email for your amusement.

I am going to challenge paypal even though it has passed the 45 days because according to their terms you can not take money for products that they do not have to sell.

So I will see what happens - not holding my breath though

I am in the UK


Quote
From: Butterfly Labs Inc [office@butterflylabs.com]
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 5:49 PM
To: Chris J R******
Subject: Re: Order Number 100034910

Thank you for contacting Butterfly Labs.  According to the terms you agreed to on checkout, all sales are final.  Now that shipping of orders has begun, refunds will not be processed.  Your order will be shipped per your position in the order queue.  Thank you for your patience and understanding.


For Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/>

Best regards,
Sabina
BF Labs, Inc. Customer Service


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Chris R**** <Chris.*****.co.uk> wrote:

Hello,

I placed my order on the 6th Arpil order number 100034910, I was aware it was a pre order item - but you did state that it would be 2 months! I can not wait any longer and I require the money due to a change in circumstances.

Therefore I would kindly request that you cancel my order and refund the money.

Many thanks

Chris R*****

If BFL is not officially refusing to refund their customers, then they better get somebody in official capacity to state otherwise. And I don't mean user Inaba, albeit BFL_Josh would suffice.

It's to their best interest to make a public statement on this forum stating their current policy on refunds, or... (haven't figured that part out yet  ).

Who cares? Someone dumb enough to not read TOS, order in the last 2 months and now want a refund should have their damn head examined and deserves to loose money.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Here's a thread that nobody at BFL cared to address about a once loyal customer of theirs wanting a refund going on a week now: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3587-ask-refund-my-4-orders-now-we-will-see-bfls-true-colors.html

Madness!/Bastards! (pick one)

[nexus99]

Here's a thread that nobody at BFL cared to address about a once loyal customer of theirs wanting a refund going on a week now: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3587-ask-refund-my-4-orders-now-we-will-see-bfls-true-colors.html

Madness!/Bastards! (pick one)

Read the posts about that guy. He apparently is a big troll over there.

[dominicus]

Please don't report BFL to the FTC, such distractions might push out my shipping date even further out. 

[polarhei]

I think, the timing is the problem as there is two month delay even the 35 jala are shipped out.

I used to order 10G on April. In May, there is nothing to update. I use PAYPAL to fire up. Then the BFL has refunded the money I deposited as I don't think the being will be on my hands.

[Loredo]

I think, the timing is the problem as there is two month delay even the 35 jala are shipped out.

I used to order 10G on April. In May, there is nothing to update. I use PAYPAL to fire up. Then the BFL has refunded the money I deposited as I don't think the being will be on my hands.

I am sorry, sir, but there is a bit of a language problem here.  Are you saying:

Your made an order in April;
It did not ship in May;
You had originally ordered with Paypal, and requested refund from them;
BFL then refunded your order themselves.

If that is not it, then please try again.  Thanks.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I think, the timing is the problem as there is two month delay even the 35 jala are shipped out.

I used to order 10G on April. In May, there is nothing to update. I use PAYPAL to fire up. Then the BFL has refunded the money I deposited as I don't think the being will be on my hands.

I am sorry, sir, but there is a bit of a language problem here.  Are you saying:

Your made an order in April;
It did not ship in May;
You had originally ordered with Paypal, and requested refund from them;
BFL then refunded your order themselves.

If that is not it, then please try again.  Thanks.

Believe it or not (probably not), you uncovered Jody's sock puppet. Note the chicken scratching. 

是,升高位時,持有量少,即使是實物,也是相若. 現今, 我要重新考慮下一步, 我的心理價是120美元.

[tacoman71]

You can try to request a refund through their site at https://products.butterflylabs.com/sales/guest/form/ if it helps.

[scambutterflylabs]

For those thinking they can't receive a refund, you may want to call Paypal (assuming that's how you paid).

The surprisingly nice Paypal rep said that normally they don't offer buyers protection after 45 days but because the account was a long standing account they would do it (opened in 2005).  About an hour later, the status on my BFL order was changed to 'Refunded'.

For those of you who have ordered less than 45 days ago and would like to keep the Paypal refund option available to you after 45 days, you need to contact Paypal before the 45th day window is up and let them know you haven't yet received your order.  That way they will track the status and your refund will be eligible after the 45 days are up.