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Author Topic: Bitcoin plus - is it owned by a member of this forum? - RANT ALERT!  (Read 6915 times)
elements
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July 02, 2011, 10:44:10 PM
 #21

if you think it's a scam, stop using it!

rocket science it is not.
It's not a scam. But it is a poor deal.


Sorry, but it is a scam! Not only a scam but a strike of genius, too!

Here is the reason why:

1.) After your first payout(s) you try to transfer to your wallet whatever little you "mined"

=> This is the first time EVER that you're informed that the minimum transfer is 0.01 BTC
=> To the newbie, who just got his/her very first BTC this is frustrating but somewhat understandable, so you keep your machine running till the total of all your payouts exceed 0.01 BTC

2.) Second transfer attempt:
Now, the proud owner of 0.01x BTC finally wants to transfer the coins to his/her wallet. And BAM:
Now you get informed (FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER AGIAN) that you have to pay a 0.01 BTC transfer fee and that any transaction has to be a multiple of 0.01 BTC (i. e. that you have to "mine" at least 0.02 BTC and losing half of it to transfer fees).

=> At this point the devestated newbie realizes that this is not a fun way to start mining and stops using the service, leaving the owner with hundreds if not thousands of left newbie accounts

If the owner would clearly state that:

a) minimum transfer is 0.02 BTC (with a 0.01 BTC transaction fee)
b) transfers are possible only as multiples of 0.01 BTC

THEN it would be a poor deal.

This way it is utter scam!


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July 02, 2011, 10:49:57 PM
 #22

That's just lack of information. NOT A SCAM damn it!

Gosh, these folks are doing a lot of noise out of 0,15 cents (at current rate)... are you 9 yo kids or what?!
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July 02, 2011, 10:55:05 PM
 #23

if it's a scam how is he making money..I think it's a good idea I just learned about this now lol
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July 02, 2011, 10:56:18 PM
 #24

can you open more than one page? Cool
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July 02, 2011, 11:09:35 PM
 #25

can you open more than one page? Cool
Yes, but it achieves nothing. Your CPU is maxed out to 100% by the applet anyway, so opening further pages just results in the same computing power but split across multiple applets. Ergo achieved nothing.

You can of course open the multiple pages on different computers. That's what I do, and indeed the site owner recommends that.

I personally disagree that it's a scam for two reasons:

1) As I said, the 0.01BTC fee is actually a relatively new feature. When the site first opened, there was no withdrawal fee and the cost was absorbed by the site (i.e. its owner). So what happened was that people--like the OP--started mining tiny <0.02BTC amounts and then withdrawing them regularly. That meant that the site owner got hit with a 0.01 fee for transactions that were often less that 0.01BTC in themselves. Not cost effective, so he introduced passing the fee on to the clients. Now I agree that that should be better communicated, but it's not a "scam", just poor communication (or at worst, not being up front)

2) I have successfully mined about 0.20BTC and successfully withdrawn it. If it was a true scam, the withdrawals would have just failed and the owner would have pocketed what little I had earned.

This is not a site that is trying to trick you out of your money (which is what a scam is). This is a site that had bad foresight as to how users would use the system, and a front page that isn't blindingly obvious that withdrawal transaction fees are passed on.
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July 02, 2011, 11:50:34 PM
 #26

This is not a site that is trying to trick you out of your money (which is what a scam is). This is a site that had bad foresight as to how users would use the system, and a front page that isn't blindingly obvious that withdrawal transaction fees are passed on.
On top of being established with a fee system in place that is different value than when the site started, on top of how much a Bitcoin was 'worth', which of course changing by the minute... oh yeah.. also, scams usually try and sell you something.  They offer a service for a fee, in the end the service itself is provided.

I can see how the site and business isn't being run up to date and current, but they sure don't have to, and at this point with how people are attacking the site, I don't think half the users complaining deserve any explanation on anything with how little they seem to want to view things from BitcoinPlus' side.   

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July 03, 2011, 02:30:54 AM
 #27

This is not a site that is trying to trick you out of your money (which is what a scam is). This is a site that had bad foresight as to how users would use the system, and a front page that isn't blindingly obvious that withdrawal transaction fees are passed on.
On top of being established with a fee system in place that is different value than when the site started, on top of how much a Bitcoin was 'worth', which of course changing by the minute... oh yeah.. also, scams usually try and sell you something.  They offer a service for a fee, in the end the service itself is provided.

I can see how the site and business isn't being run up to date and current, but they sure don't have to, and at this point with how people are attacking the site, I don't think half the users complaining deserve any explanation on anything with how little they seem to want to view things from BitcoinPlus' side.   

Sorry Porn, but you're only defending the site because you let their software run on your porn site.
Quite understandable that you want to defend the site then.
Don't get me wrong - it's ok to do so IF it is disclosed.
Even the BCP policy was ok if disclosed.
The SCAM is that they don't.

BTW nice pics on your site Wink

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July 03, 2011, 02:40:40 AM
 #28

Sorry Porn, but you're only defending the site because you let their software run on your porn site.
Quite understandable that you want to defend the site then.
Don't get me wrong - it's ok to do so IF it is disclosed.
Even the BCP policy was ok if disclosed.
The SCAM is that they don't.

BTW nice pics on your site Wink
I assure you, I do not always defend BitcoinPlus, please research my posts, I tend to talk highly of Bitp.it, but in this case and one other brought up recently in the Newbie forum, it's hard not to see BCP's side on this matter, it is plain and simple a lack of a site update that is getting the site labeled as a scam.  You can clearly see this stemming from bitterness regarding misunderstanding how browser mining could work, obviously not on an individual level.  There is no scam.

BTW, thanks, I'm photogenic Tongue

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July 03, 2011, 07:21:26 AM
 #29



this site was talked about on the newbies forum. the page doesn't stay open. it eventually logs you out after a few minutes. either it's a scam or just a poorly coded setup.



this site was talked about on the newbies forum. the page doesn't stay open. it eventually logs you out after a few minutes. either it's a scam or just a poorly coded setup.

Been using it for 10 days now. Page only closes when I close it. It's never logged me out (and I have it logged in on a desktop and laptop at home, and a desk top at work). Seeing as this is a browser miner, chances are most users have pretty low performance computers and THAT's the problem.

As for the payouts, sending an email to him and asking him to change his minimum payout to match the new bitcoin client could work.

Just saying...

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July 03, 2011, 08:34:16 AM
 #30

if you think it's a scam, stop using it!

rocket science it is not.
It's not a scam. But it is a poor deal.


Sorry, but it is a scam! Not only a scam but a strike of genius, too!

Here is the reason why:

1.) After your first payout(s) you try to transfer to your wallet whatever little you "mined"

=> This is the first time EVER that you're informed that the minimum transfer is 0.01 BTC
=> To the newbie, who just got his/her very first BTC this is frustrating but somewhat understandable, so you keep your machine running till the total of all your payouts exceed 0.01 BTC

2.) Second transfer attempt:
Now, the proud owner of 0.01x BTC finally wants to transfer the coins to his/her wallet. And BAM:
Now you get informed (FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER AGIAN) that you have to pay a 0.01 BTC transfer fee and that any transaction has to be a multiple of 0.01 BTC (i. e. that you have to "mine" at least 0.02 BTC and losing half of it to transfer fees).

=> At this point the devestated newbie realizes that this is not a fun way to start mining and stops using the service, leaving the owner with hundreds if not thousands of left newbie accounts

If the owner would clearly state that:

a) minimum transfer is 0.02 BTC (with a 0.01 BTC transaction fee)
b) transfers are possible only as multiples of 0.01 BTC

THEN it would be a poor deal.

This way it is utter scam!



hopefully this is easy enough to follow along Smiley my anger at this got the best of me Smiley

I 100% agree!! complete Bleeping scam. I've only been around for a few weeks and everything he said is exactly what i thought.

The owner hides the .01 btc MINIMUM for transfer until you go to the transfer page. while this is not a big deal, idealy id have liked to transfer it sooner. I had no clue untill then that i needed .01 minimum. so like the above guy said "its understandable" to have to wait. so while its my fault that i didnt check *every* page on his website, he Certainly didnt make this fee upfront. but forget about that for now here is the real 'gotcha'.

The real scam here is that it litterly doesnt mention *anything* *anywhere* about needing .02 BTC for the /actual/ transfer it ONLY says ".01 btc minimum for transfer".

the owner basically strings you alone with "well you have .004 btc! might as well stick around till you get .01 btc and can transfer it out, after all you earned it!" but once you get that .01 btc you find out the REAL minimum is .02 btc.. so now you have to wait around for another .01 btc or you end up throwing away the .01 btc you already have, effectivly donateing it to the site owner. so if at any point you leave... because you never withdraw the amount of BTC you've earnd the owner effectivly gets to keep it since the BTC is in his account and he only has to pay transfer fees on each of those small amounts *if* he transfers them out.

i only mention the following because someone else did as well and because i had the exact same reaction. it Seems like the amount he pays out drops over time as well as well as the frequency of payments, it Seems like hes double dipping. which is why i tested out a Real CPU miner... which i make allot more on. in 4 days, (not nights) I've made as much i had in the last 2-3 weeks.

some of you can say "its only a few pennies, and their are fees!" but i really don't care, the facts stand, the fees are hidden to string you along so when you eventually give up he gets to keep the money. Aside from that, he can lump multiple withdraw transactions together to reduce the overall cost(unless im just wrong on this, transactions have a limit in data size, not number of people included in the transaction). he can also simply push them out with no transaction fee since that limitation is client side and not in the protocol itself, i really wouldn't mind waiting 24 hours or a week to get the BTC considering a i spent 2-3 weeks getting it in the first place.

and for those of you thinking "why bother for so little?" its because It's freaking cool! then why am i pissed? because of the principal of it! and if TWO people are pissed, you can be sure their are more. this guy is certainly doing a great job to help out the image of bitcoin lets all give him some applauds! *claps for the site owner*.

id love to see how much btc is waiting to be given out from inactive accounts. heck he could even have a "donate your btc to xyz charity" then every time he reached 10.01 btc he could simply send it to the charity rather then keeping it.

oh and while I'm at it, the Ufasoft CPU miner that does GPU's as well works much better.. and doesn't require any installs.

forum page for all miners -> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=16125.0




Link to other thread complaining about the same thing -> http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17099.0
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July 03, 2011, 01:11:00 PM
 #31

Per definition, miners are greedy, micro-miners are greedier... if you don't try to withdraw rightaway I guess he could had lift that fee, because is a NETWORK FEE, not a house fee! If you can't even figure out how bitcoin works and just want to dip in the free money, sorry...
And for god sake stop using those damn CPU pools, you will NEVER make enough to pay the electrical you spend by doing it that way! Rather ask your parents to buy you 1btc at some btc market.
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July 03, 2011, 01:52:45 PM
 #32

@BCEmporium: No idea who you are talking to, but it seems like you are the one that doesn't understand the Fees, they are just their to get someone to include your transaction in the blockchain. its blatantly obvious we wont make a profit but if us CPU mining makes you that upset, I'm sure if you send each of us 1 BTC we would be more then willing to stop just to make you happy. Oh and if it was directed at me, i don't like your attitude, in fact i don't like it regardless and i have a few choice words for you that ill keep to myself. G'day sir.
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July 03, 2011, 02:03:43 PM
 #33

Yeah, and if you just "made" your 0.01 and rush to withdraw it, rushing the transaction will result in a network fee. Unless you want to collect your 0.01 without input it to the blockchain (ask him to create and send you a wallet with 0.01 by mail for an instance).
It wasn't direct at you alone, but to all who keep whining over cents.
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July 03, 2011, 02:46:16 PM
 #34

That's just lack of information. NOT A SCAM damn it!

Gosh, these folks are doing a lot of noise out of 0,15 cents (at current rate)... are you 9 yo kids or what?!

It is a scam. Maybe I should write it in a way for greater impact (like you).

IT IS A SCAM darn it! (noticed I added bold text Grin).

That lack of information you mentioned is why it is a scam. This is called "Lying by omission"*

The fact that it is a small amount, is what makes it a great scam. Look what you wrote: "... are you 9 yo kids or what?!"
Is this to mean, stop complaining about being scammed since it is such a small amount?

Well what you wrote is not as bad as some. Some blame the people who got scammed for trusting BCP. They should have known better. Everyone ones knows that BCP is meant for websites. Someone even called one of the scammed a fool. Wow. You are a fool for being scammed. That seems wrong to me (maybe not to you).

The ones who don't know much about BitCoin are the ones who are being scammed. BCP knows this and lets it happen. Without telling them so they can make an informed decision.

Guess what, it is still happening.

Full disclose: I was scammed by BCP. I was also the one who was called a fool.
Why does't BCP disclose how they do things? Answer: They are scamming people.

* Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

Do no evil,

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July 03, 2011, 02:57:45 PM
 #35

That's just lack of information. NOT A SCAM damn it!

Gosh, these folks are doing a lot of noise out of 0,15 cents (at current rate)... are you 9 yo kids or what?!

It is a scam. Maybe I should write it in a way for greater impact (like you).

IT IS A SCAM darn it! (noticed I added bold text Grin).

That lack of information you mentioned is why it is a scam. This is called "Lying by omission"*

The fact that it is a small amount, is what makes it a great scam. Look what you wrote: "... are you 9 yo kids or what?!"
Is this to mean, stop complaining about being scammed since it is such a small amount?

Well what you wrote is not as bad as some. Some blame the people who got scammed for trusting BCP. They should have known better. Everyone ones knows that BCP is meant for websites. Someone even called one of the scammed a fool. Wow. You are a fool for being scammed. That seems wrong to me (maybe not to you).

The ones who don't know much about BitCoin are the ones who are being scammed. BCP knows this and lets it happen. Without telling them so they can make an informed decision.

Guess what, it is still happening.

Full disclose: I was scammed by BCP. I was also the one who was called a fool.
Why does't BCP disclose how they do things? Answer: They are scamming people.

* Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details.

+1

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July 03, 2011, 03:17:51 PM
 #36

if you don't try to withdraw rightaway I guess he could had lift that fee,

True, however BTC will not do this. I know. I was told by them that they will charge 0.01 on any amount. Also they could lower to the current rate of 0.0005. Nope, not doing that either. Also they could use JK's information (taken from another thread):

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.


I assume that you think that BCP is not a scam. Does it still not seem like a scam?

Keep in mind that BCP was paying the transaction and changed their policy (without telling anyone through the site). You would have to find that information by contacting them through email.

Do you think it is a scam yet? No. They can change policies without informing people. Even Facebook will inform you when they make changes. In their case it is hiding in one of their settings, but it is there.

BCP does't disclose anything. That is a scam. I know many don't like that word (scam). Honestly, you must admit that what BCP does is not right and it is still happening.

Do no evil,

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July 03, 2011, 03:21:30 PM
 #37

IT IS NOT (notice I added bold, italic and underline).

That fee is already stated here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

OK, maybe the site's owner was relying in ignorance or just think you know what bitcoin is before use his service.
Lack of information isn't always a scam, or scam sign, if the thing is meant to be widely known.

Calling scammer to someone so lightly over a community that's 90%+ trust based is bullshit! Either you've solid evidence or zip it! Spread FUD is an attack on the community.
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July 03, 2011, 03:45:05 PM
 #38

Talking of lack of information as lying by omission, so you don't apply it as falacy, from a real story which happened to me:

I went to buy a grilled chicken, when the I arrive to the car my wife noticed the chicken was cold. I went back and complaint, the answered of the clerk was amazing: «You didn't told me you want it hot»
WTF! Grilled chicken is already meant to be hot, if was cool it was his duty to inform me or was "lying by omission" - because the thing wasn't the way it was meant to be.
Now, if I want a cold grilled chicken, but don't state it, and he give me one hot, then my complaint would be foolish, if I want it cold I should had ask as so.

Like selling and car stating it have 4 wheels... so what? It is already implicit, if it have 3 or 5 you may need to inform the customer, if has 4 is just a plain normal car.
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July 03, 2011, 05:26:58 PM
 #39

1) As I said, the 0.01BTC fee is actually a relatively new feature.

Feature? I associate features with benefits.
e.g, Feature: This car has a 5.0L engine.
Benefit: This car will zoom pass the others and you will get home faster.

Feature: We will charge you 0.01 (even though we could make it lower).
Benefit: After you get to 0.01 BTC and find out about the fee (that's when you find out, by the way), you would stop mining and we keep your BTC.

That meant that the site owner got hit with a 0.01 fee for transactions that were often less that 0.01BTC in themselves. Not cost effective,

It BTC wants to be cost effective, then use JK's information (taken from another thread):

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.

BTC is not going to do this, because it would hurt their scam. Right now they are saying, "Hey, it's not our fault that you have to pay the 0.01 fee, blame the BTC network. It's their fault, our hands are tied." Of course the fee is now 0.0005, however BTC doesn't mention that (bad for the scam).

so he introduced passing the fee on to the clients.

Introduced? That's kind. How was it introduced to you. Was it when you tried to transfer BTC.

Now I agree that that should be better communicated

Better Communicated? Again, that's kind. It was not communicated at all. Look at the site and find the communication. You will not find it.


(or at worst, not being up front)

BCP is (maybe) not being up front? Say it isn't so. What they are doing is scamming. Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception. See http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission for more details. Lying by omission is scamming.

I have successfully mined about 0.20BTC and successfully withdrawn it.

Is this before or after the introduction of the new feature?
could you send me the address of this transaction so I can see for myself?


If it was a true scam, the withdrawals would have just failed and the owner would have pocketed what little I had earned.

That is not how the scam works. They scam from people who know found out it's a scam and don't want to play that game again.
Here is how it works. You goto BCP and starting mining.
-You get your 1st payout (Yea!!) and attempt to transfer your BTC. This is when that you told that you need a minimum of 0.01 to transfer.*
-You get to at least 0.01 and now you are told that you can't transfer because of a 0.01 fee.*
-You contact BTC via email and the say that you really need 0.02 to transfer and 0.01 would be lost because of the fee. Two points to make on this. BTC can lower the fee if the want (by using JK's info and/or updating their BTC client). On their site, when you try to transfer funds, it says that it is a 0.01 minimum to transfer.

What would you do? Mine until you get to 0.02 and lose 0.01. Or call it quits, step away and know that they are keeping your BTC.
 
When it happened to me, I called it quits (but not right away). While stepping away, I had to give it up to BTC. Great scam.
Very well played sir, very well played.

This is a site that had bad foresight as to how users would use the system

I think they knew what they were doing from the start. If not, they saw the opportunity for starting a scam and took it.
In either case, still a scam.

* It is not listed anywhere else on the site.

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July 03, 2011, 07:33:58 PM
 #40

That fee is already stated here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
Do you live in the U.S. (It will make sense later on [I hope])?
Do you consider BitCoin to be a form of currency?

Why the questions? I believe (could be wrong, I'm not a lawyer) that in the U.S. (which I'm located) that any company that deals with money and the public are required to disclose.

BCP did not disclose anything. Please read this thread for details. They did not so much as post a link like you did.

If something like this happened to you, would you think it a scam?
Quote
You go to your bank to withdraw some money. You are told you can't because of a fee. What fee, you ask?
The fee that you should have known before you got here.
How can I learn about this fee?
You can go to many places to learn about the fee. Many places, but not here.

OK, maybe the site's owner was relying in ignorance

Maybe? Please read this thread from the start (reread if you have to). After that, then don't you think you should do a re-write and get rid of the maybe?

think you know what bitcoin is before use his service.

No, that is not the case. It may (I'm being nice here) have been the case at one time.
Now, they know.

Lack of information isn't always a scam, or scam sign, if the thing is meant to be widely known.

OK, what about the fee you are talking about. Why is it still 0.01 (I tried to transfer yesterday and it was still there)? As you may know, that the fee is 0.0005 now. Does it seem like a scam to you yet?

What about JK's information (taken from another thread):

The fee is per transaction, not per recipient. Assuming he's paying 10 people at a time out of a block he mined a few hours ago, he never would have to pay anywhere near .01 per recipient. Maybe it's a scam, but maybe he's just too lazy to group his transactions. If he keeps doing very small payouts from the same block, he's doing one transaction per payout and they're all going to be with newish coins.

Still not a scam?

Calling scammer to someone so lightly over a community that's 90%+ trust based is bullshit!

If you are saying that BCP is in the 10% that should not be trusted, then I agree.

Either you've solid evidence or zip it!

You want proof. Goto http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=17099.0 and read (not just my posts). After that, ask me questions on things that you are unsure of. Until you read my proof, could you please zip it (notice, I said please).

Spread FUD is an attack on the community.

I don't understand this, however I will respond.

What I'm spreading is truth. The truth is that BCP has and is still scamming people. I do not see how me telling the truth about BCP is hurting BitCoin or the BitCoin network.

Truth should not spread FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt).

FEAR: I do not think that anyone is fearful of BCP. Their crime does not involve murder, rape, dismembering etc. They are just stealing small amounts of BTC from people.
Is that something to be afraid of? Avoided, yes. Feared, no.

UNCERTAINTY: No I am certain that BCP is scamming people. Hopefully you will read that and came to that yourself. I understand that you may not think that they are scamming (some would rather hope I use another word), however I think you would at least realize that BCP is not doing some things right. I haven't said that are scamming everyone, just some (which makes it such a great scam). I haven't even said that they are no-good (as in: they can bring nothing to the table). From what I read, if you have a website (or websites), then BCP could be a good fit for you. I don't have a website, so I can only tell you what I read.

What am I saying? Even with the things that they bring for websites, they are still scamming people.

DOUBT: Yea, I want you to doubt them. If you have read every thing then I'm sure you will see why you should doubt. Keeping in mind that the people with websites do not have a problem BCP (none that I heard of). OK, that is not 100% true. Some have expressed that they do not like that BCP doesn't disclose. However it is working for them (so let the BitCoins roll in). I would hope that they (website owners who use BCP) would keep an eye on BCP. I think that is the wise thing to do.

Do no evil,

Smiley 12KYva8D2GT3C1wSD8wvgkFkP5TnBp3LPC Smiley
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