Block chain size/storage and slow downloads for new users

[pönde]

There is something of block chain size in the bitcoin paper.

7. Reclaiming Disk Space

Once the latest transaction in a coin is buried under enough blocks, the spent transactions before
it can be discarded to save disk space. To facilitate this without breaking the block's hash,
transactions are hashed in a Merkle Tree [7][2][5], with only the root included in the block's hash.
Old blocks can then be compacted by stubbing off branches of the tree. The interior hashes do
not need to be stored.

A block header with no transactions would be about 80 bytes. If we suppose blocks are
generated every 10 minutes, 80 bytes * 6 * 24 * 365 = 4.2MB per year. With computer systems
typically selling with 2GB of RAM as of 2008, and Moore's Law predicting current growth of
1.2GB per year, storage should not be a problem even if the block headers must be kept in
memory.

bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

So now when the bicoin has been running for almost five years, the size of the block chain could be as small as 5x4,2MB=21MB.

But it is not. It is almost 12500MB.

So what is true? Is it possible to reduce the size of a one block to 80 bytes?

What do you think?

[tvbcof]

There is something of block chain size in the bitcoin paper.

7. Reclaiming Disk Space

Once the latest transaction in a coin is buried under enough blocks, the spent transactions before
it can be discarded to save disk space. To facilitate this without breaking the block's hash,
transactions are hashed in a Merkle Tree [7][2][5], with only the root included in the block's hash.
Old blocks can then be compacted by stubbing off branches of the tree. The interior hashes do
not need to be stored.

A block header with no transactions would be about 80 bytes. If we suppose blocks are
generated every 10 minutes, 80 bytes * 6 * 24 * 365 = 4.2MB per year. With computer systems
typically selling with 2GB of RAM as of 2008, and Moore's Law predicting current growth of
1.2GB per year, storage should not be a problem even if the block headers must be kept in
memory.

bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

So now when the bicoin has been running for almost five years, the size of the block chain could be as small as 5x4,2MB=21MB.

But it is not. It is almost 12500MB.

So what is true? Is it possible to reduce the size of a one block to 80 bytes?

What do you think?

Priorities seem to have shifted.

That was probably THE single biggest selling point to me when I read the whitepaper.  What do I think?  I think I've been chumped.

[malevolent]

There is something of block chain size in the bitcoin paper.

7. Reclaiming Disk Space

Once the latest transaction in a coin is buried under enough blocks, the spent transactions before
it can be discarded to save disk space. To facilitate this without breaking the block's hash,
transactions are hashed in a Merkle Tree [7][2][5], with only the root included in the block's hash.
Old blocks can then be compacted by stubbing off branches of the tree. The interior hashes do
not need to be stored.

A block header with no transactions would be about 80 bytes. If we suppose blocks are
generated every 10 minutes, 80 bytes * 6 * 24 * 365 = 4.2MB per year. With computer systems
typically selling with 2GB of RAM as of 2008, and Moore's Law predicting current growth of
1.2GB per year, storage should not be a problem even if the block headers must be kept in
memory.

bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

So now when the bicoin has been running for almost five years, the size of the block chain could be as small as 5x4,2MB=21MB.
But it is not. It is almost 12500MB.
So what is true? Is it possible to reduce the size of a one block to 80 bytes?
What do you think?

Priorities seem to have shifted.
That was probably THE single biggest selling point to me when I read the whitepaper.  What do I think?  I think I've been chumped.

There is something of block chain size in the bitcoin paper.

A block header with no transactions would be about 80 bytes. If we suppose blocks are
generated every 10 minutes, 80 bytes * 6 * 24 * 365 = 4.2MB per year. With computer systems
typically selling with 2GB of RAM as of 2008, and Moore's Law predicting current growth of
1.2GB per year, storage should not be a problem even if the block headers must be kept in
memory.

[pönde]

Well, there could be a simple solution for too big block chain.

The block chain is there to prevent the double spendings. Well. Before the very first one block in January 2009 there is no blocks or transactions. And still no double spendings have detected.

So lets start new bitcoin system and create a new first block. From the old bitcoin system we just copy all existing bitcoin-addresses to the new bitcoin system's first block and transact exactly same amount of bitcoins to those addresses. And then we just start the new Bitcoin system running.

The old bitcoin system, blocks and transactions can be forgetten.

That very first new block contains one transaction per one created address, so it is quite big, but still just a fraction of the size of the old bitcoin system's block chain.

This could work?

[solex]

Well, there could be a simple solution for too big block chain.

The block chain is there to prevent the double spendings. Well. Before the very first one block in January 2009 there is no blocks or transactions. And still no double spendings have detected.

So lets start new bitcoin system and create a new first block. From the old bitcoin system we just copy all existing bitcoin-addresses to the new bitcoin system's first block and transact exactly same amount of bitcoins to those addresses. And then we just start the new Bitcoin system running.

The old bitcoin system, blocks and transactions can be forgetten.

That very first new block contains one transaction per one created address, so it is quite big, but still just a fraction of the size of the old bitcoin system's block chain.

This could work?

Congratulations! You have just discovered the principle of blockchain ultra-pruning. Check my sig for more.

[funkspiel]

It took me 2 and a half days for me to download and verify the block chain.  I would use and spv client such as Multibit but the features that armoury has are much more secure especially with the paper backup etc.  It would be nice if the download speed was faster then i could have all but one of my computers synced up - one for small transactions and the offline one of cold storage

[piramida]

I would use and spv client such as Multibit but the features that armoury has are much more secure especially with the paper backup etc.

bitaddress.org

you welcome.

[hostmaster]

Thx very good explanation. It's not a big deal today actually but tomorrow when blocks reaching 100 gb. We will be more focused these services.

[freddyfarnsworth]

I would use and spv client such as Multibit but the features that armoury has are much more secure especially with the paper backup etc.

bitaddress.org

you welcome.

I am there, nicely done site, however since I am such a layman, how do I know you dont have a copy of the private key generated or just a screenshot would do, other than you saying you dont...

All this software tech is confusing, learning as fast as I can
Paper wallets are good if I could generate keys in my head, or even had the patience to write them down way to long. I just do not get numbers, words are fine.

OH to make it fit I had to print in landscape. must be a HD page.

[piramida]

I would use and spv client such as Multibit but the features that armoury has are much more secure especially with the paper backup etc.

bitaddress.org

you welcome.

I am there, nicely done site, however since I am such a layman, how do I know you dont have a copy of the private key generated or just a screenshot would do, other than you saying you dont...

All this tech is confusing, learning as fast as I can
Paper wallets are good if I could generate keys in my head, or even had the patience to write them down way to long. I just do not get numbers, words are fine.

OH to make it fit I had to print in landscape. must be a HD page.

The thing about that site (not mine, everybody uses it) is that all key generation is done in your browser. So no info is sent over the wire, but you don't have to trust it's authors - you can (and should) make double sure you are safe, not only from the site owners but also from possible trojans or viruses on your comp:

save the complete site, open it on some computer with no internet connection, generate addresses and print them out, then you can format the HD of that computer if you are paranoid or just reboot it to clean up temporary information.

[mostafakhalil]

Thank you so much

[freddyfarnsworth]

I would use and spv client such as Multibit but the features that armoury has are much more secure especially with the paper backup etc.

bitaddress.org

you welcome.

I am there, nicely done site, however since I am such a layman, how do I know you dont have a copy of the private key generated or just a screenshot would do, other than you saying you dont...

All this tech is confusing, learning as fast as I can
Paper wallets are good if I could generate keys in my head, or even had the patience to write them down way to long. I just do not get numbers, words are fine.

OH to make it fit I had to print in landscape. must be a HD page.

The thing about that site (not mine, everybody uses it) is that all key generation is done in your browser. So no info is sent over the wire, but you don't have to trust it's authors - you can (and should) make double sure you are safe, not only from the site owners but also from possible trojans or viruses on your comp:

save the complete site, open it on some computer with no internet connection, generate addresses and print them out, then you can format the HD of that computer if you are paranoid or just reboot it to clean up temporary information.

Wonderful easy way ! secure wallet keys, from a generator that may have a set code to the keys it will make ,,, I know, to paranoid, I do know any single 0 or 1 bit words ect over wire are saved somewhere.
Nothing in the matrix is secure... nothing, Only what is in my head is safe for now.
Until the fingernails, teeth, eyes, start getting messed with. hahaha

I will do as you recommended thank you !

OH ! Thanks to _-=piramida=-_ for the site and source code. Good Stuff
freddy

[fredswar]

Can anyone answer me this?

Do you need to download the whole blockchain to make use of advanced scripting features of Bitcoin? I'm talking about m-of-n addresses mostly.

[Carlos-e-spectra]

ofc 

[Mike Hearn]

No, you don't.

[cjjun]

good job. i learn something useful from this discussion

[7Priest7]

I've seen a few torrents with a backup of the blockchain.

It might be good to have a annual backup made check summed then made available on numerous mirrors.
The blocks would still be available peer2peer(hopefully) but the centralized backup could ensure the blockchains retention(if a large part of the btc swarm elect to only use recent blocks.)
I know that when I have downloaded blocks, my 25mbps connection(much weaker than a lot of peoples) is never fully utilized.

[jubalix]

If devs would come up with solution which would at least halve blockchain, I bet people would donate larger sums as a "Thank you" message.

Fantasy.  Nobody donates, much less large sums.  This is a cute delusion.

While working as a volunteer core dev for years, I received a whopping...  ~30 BTC in donations.  https://blockchain.info/address/1BrufViLKnSWtuWGkryPsKsxonV2NQ7Tcj  The vast majority of that prior to 2013, leaving the monetary total well under $500 for years worth of work.

Donating will not bring down blockchain size.  Technically infeasible, even if donations work.  Which they don't.

donation of that size may work from in a quasi Seigniorage manner. If enough good dev is done due a sufficiently large following, the 30 coins at 10K each may eventuate, thus being 300K which would probably cover the dev cost.

However you have to wait, to see the net effect of combined dev via price discovery a few years down the track.

[it is in the interests of those with larger holding to donate or undertake dev as well]

[slangrd]

very very good ... tnx 

[vineyard]

This, combined with off-chain transactions like https://inputs.io, gives me a lot of hope for Bitcoin.

Yes, seems like problems are getting solved. I am hopeful too...