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Author Topic: Block chain size/storage and slow downloads for new users  (Read 228612 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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May 29, 2014, 01:13:20 AM
 #181

For a solution for this to work for everyone with or without hdd space. Blockchain should be on the cloud and a small index file downloaded to ones system and then qt wallet for computer or mobile phone or tablet can easily be updated and a small amount of data to be put on system. This would not only free up space on peoples computers but it would also allow faster transactions to go though the network. A lot can be done to improve services and I disagree for new users to be penalised because their new to the services. What happens if 1 million new business want to start accepting it for their business and they have to wait ages to download the blockchain and update their wallets. It wouldn't work out it would  deter more people from using it.

No the solution is to use a SPV client.  The network is already the "cloud".  Satoshi solved this problem a year before the genesis block was minted and people keep trying to come up with inferior "solutions".

If you want to be a full node there is no substitute for the (pruned) blockchain.   You don't need to be a full node, you can operate as an SPV client instead.  There is no reason to try and combine the both into a solution which takes the worst elements of each and accomplishes nothing.
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May 29, 2014, 01:19:41 AM
 #182

For a solution for this to work for everyone with or without hdd space. Blockchain should be on the cloud and a small index file downloaded to ones system and then qt wallet for computer or mobile phone or tablet can easily be updated and a small amount of data to be put on system. This would not only free up space on peoples computers but it would also allow faster transactions to go though the network. A lot can be done to improve services and I disagree for new users to be penalised because their new to the services. What happens if 1 million new business want to start accepting it for their business and they have to wait ages to download the blockchain and update their wallets. It wouldn't work out it would  deter more people from using it.

No the solution is to use a SPV client.  The network is already the "cloud".  Satoshi solved this problem a year before the genesis block was minted and people keep trying to come up with inferior "solutions".

If you want to be a full node there is no substitute for the (pruned) blockchain.   You don't need to be a full node, you can operate as an SPV client instead.  There is no reason to try and combine the both into a solution which takes the worst elements of each and accomplishes nothing.

Never even heard of a SPV client. I understand partly it being in the cloud but what I  meant was for more services on the cloud to speed things up than it currently is and to also reduce the amount of space used. If this is the case using SPV client you are on about maybe you can point me in the direction to one or details about it. As I would be interested in such things as always looking for something light weight and easy going.

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May 29, 2014, 01:24:20 AM
 #183

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Thin_Client_Security#Simplified_Payment_Verification_.28SPV.29
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May 29, 2014, 02:00:25 AM
 #184


Looking at Electrum can you import wallets on this using private key. Is it the same as just doing it on btc qt import ect?

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May 29, 2014, 01:01:54 PM
 #185

I just tried Multibit, but it won't correctly load the funds on my addresses.

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May 30, 2014, 02:47:26 AM
 #186

I just tried Multibit, but it won't correctly load the funds on my addresses.

I was looking at that one but I have found the same problems. Loads up but when trying to import it gets stuck or seems to crash on me. Going to try a few more out and see if I can come to a solution of a light weight wallet.

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May 31, 2014, 10:54:30 AM
 #187

 "SPV wallets will always be fast no matter how popular Bitcoin gets." why do you think so?Huh Huh come on, it will be like any other wallets , no difference
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May 31, 2014, 11:03:04 AM
 #188

"SPV wallets will always be fast no matter how popular Bitcoin gets." why do you think so?Huh Huh come on, it will be like any other wallets , no difference
Bitcoin core requires user to download full blockchain which takes a long time. However,  SPV wallets do not need to download any blocks.

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June 01, 2014, 01:33:21 PM
 #189

is blockchain most secure wallet?
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June 01, 2014, 02:11:19 PM
 #190

is blockchain most secure wallet?
No, your computer can be compromised and your block chain account can be hacked. Offline paper wallet is the most secure.

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silvestar
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June 01, 2014, 02:58:12 PM
 #191

is blockchain most secure wallet?

bc.i wallet is better than exchange ones, but not as good as offline wallet and paper wallet.
l3n1nN
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June 07, 2014, 06:37:49 AM
 #192

what about electrum?
tvbcof
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June 07, 2014, 07:16:28 AM
 #193

what about electrum?

The two solutions (electrum and SPV) strike me as more or less equivalent.  In both situations the user is not a peer in the (supposedly) peer-2-peer network.  The user relies on people who are peers, but the 'server' cannot cheat them.  Or at least not easily and not at this point.  The userbase using either solution does not really add much of anything aside from body-count to the solution.

Seems to me that Bitcoin is on the trajectory of moving toward being not much more or much less 'peer-2-peer' than the mainstream banking system where banks who have the resources peer with one another to create a system (and users have debit cards and such.)  Certainly that would be the case if the transaction rate is increased significantly (and Bitcoin achieves and maintains popularity.)  Some years ago I suggested that Bitcoin marketing starts to move away from the 'peer-2-peer' label as a sales pitch.  This suggestion was met with the expected level of animosity.  Eventually 'the powers that be' seem to have taken my advice to some extent however.  Not that Bitcoin won't still have advantages (chiefly, the potential absence of counter-party risk) but many of the earlier sales pitches will prove to be early hot air.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
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June 08, 2014, 02:52:47 AM
 #194

is blockchain most secure wallet?

USB flash disk stuffed in your butt crack is probably the most secure wallet..
tvbcof
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June 08, 2014, 03:08:39 AM
 #195

is blockchain most secure wallet?

USB flash disk stuffed in your butt crack is probably the most secure wallet..

uSD might be more comfortable, but whatever floats your boat I guess.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
lailiangufkjf65
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June 10, 2014, 04:16:56 AM
 #196

what about electrum?

qumitgaif709984
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June 10, 2014, 05:01:01 AM
 #197

...
What we are going to have to do is require peers to either do something useful, like relay valid fee-paying transactions and valid blocks to us, or expend some kind of limited resource, like perform a proof-of-work or just pay directly via micropayment. That'll make widescale DoS attacks prohibitively expensive, but it also impacts SPV nodes too that don't contribute to the health of the network. Of course, obviously if such an attack happens this code will be written and deployed very quickly, so don't get any ideas...

'Something useful' could be, among other things, being verifiable situated in a domain which is underpopulated.  The domain could be geographical, political, implementational (meaning it works in particular way such as implementing an underrepresented overlay messaging protocol) or whatever.

Indeed - that's what we try to achieve with the current system of trying to connect to nodes with ip addresses in a varied set of /16's. Varying implementations is an interesting idea too, although one that's harder to actually verify.

If you can come up with ways to do more than that we'd love to know, but be warned it's a really, really difficult problem.
Very good explanation.

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zvs
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June 25, 2014, 07:15:31 AM
 #198

is blockchain most secure wallet?

USB flash disk stuffed in your butt crack is probably the most secure wallet..

uSD might be more comfortable, but whatever floats your boat I guess.



If he wanted to store USD and not bitcoins, sure.
gongbixocqd7942
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June 26, 2014, 08:47:45 AM
 #199

The currency appreciation of the space is very large

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June 26, 2014, 03:16:19 PM
 #200

I think the problem here is not the size of the blockchain itself. The problem is how the blockchain is handled.

While using the client I found several problems. The first problem is that the client wastes bandwidth by downloading blocks that it already has. I suspect the P2P protocol does not have provision for a node telling "I already have block X, please send me blocks A, B and Z instead". I can see this problem in the debug.log file which is littered by "ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block X" where X runs from a certain number consecutively for several such messages then it jumps and again runs consecutively. I think this not only wastes the bandwidth but also the time because the other nodes spend time sending these useless blocks instead of blocks that make progress. This happens pretty frequently at my node which is connected behind a firewall.

The second problem is the "Reading the list of blocks" and "Validating blocks" actions which takes a lot of time. Well, my question is why the client needs to "read the list of blocks" and "validate the blocks" every time it starts up. Well, the "read the list of blocks" is not taking that much time but "validate the blocks" is 10 minute operation. You know, once the blocks are validated, why they need to be revalidated at every program startup ?

The third problem is that the client is "jumping over the data like goat over cemetery" while doing these two actions. This is MUCH SLOWER than reading the data in sequence. Why it needs to jump over the data so much? Maybe implement some caching?

The fourth problem is why the program splits the blockchain into 125 MB chunks? That is inefficient in Windows where opening and closing a file is pretty expensive operation. In my blockchain directory the first 10 GB are stored in 5 files (well, in fact 10 because I need to count the revXXXXX files) because they were downloaded by a 0.6.3 BETA client but the remaining 9 GB is spread over 75 files. Is there a way to reconfigure these storage parameters? And once I change them, is there a way to tell the client to repackage the blockchain so it is stored according to my wishes? I prefer "few large files" over "many small files" on Windows because "many small files" is inefficient.

A similar problem is with the "chainstate" data which is only 0.5 GB but is littered into 229 files. Well, that might not be your fault as I understand that these fileis actually belong to some sort of general purpose database which was recently replaced and actually is much faster now but I believe that this data could be handled more efficiently if it was in a single file (maybe developing a special purpose database?)

Also regarding the size of the blockchain, there are two things that should be done. The first thing is that the coinbase transaction can be as big as the miner wants (and some coinbase transactions weight few tens of KB, storing various stuff, see "Hidden Surprises in Bitcoin Blockchain" search on Google and especially this blog) so putting a limit to it for example 128 or even 64 bytes would be good (but the limit should not be too small because otherwise we could run into a bunch of blocks with no solution). And the second thing would be when storing the blockchain, extract the addresses and especially the public keys out of the block data, store them into some sort of index file and in the block data replace them with indices. That could reduce the size of the stored blockchain pretty significantly.
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