CoinPal beta - Buying bitcoins with PayPal

[snelan]

No way with such a low fraud rate that PayPal just suddenly decided to cut you off. I'll bet good bitcoins that somebody (i.e. the admins at overclock.net) tipped them off.

I basically live by OCN, but I know those mods, and if one of them tipped PayPal off I'm gonna be really mad. There was a huge thread about it with like 3000 replies on OCN.

EDIT: Yea it just go closed, http://www.overclock.net/other-software/1001123-earn-your-gpu-bitcoin-mining-guide-165.html

[1714092386]

1714092386

[error]

No way with such a low fraud rate that PayPal just suddenly decided to cut you off. I'll bet good bitcoins that somebody (i.e. the admins at overclock.net) tipped them off.

I basically live by OCN, but I know those mods, and if one of them tipped PayPal off I'm gonna be really mad. There was a huge thread about it with like 3000 replies on OCN.

EDIT: Yea it just go closed, http://www.overclock.net/other-software/1001123-earn-your-gpu-bitcoin-mining-guide-165.html

It was huge because of the incredibly large number of trolls and naysayers. I was hardly expecting the staff to be trolls and naysayers themselves.

[snelan]

Well, with every major forum comes trolls, and trolls there are on OCN.

I don't really blame the nay-sayers though, who would believe that you can sell bitcoins and acquire them by doing basically nothing?

[Satori]

PayPal, owned by eBay, is in the middle of their third class-action for defrauding customers and freezing accounts.

Regardless of whether or not the department that gave you permission to trade BitCoins was authorized to, you have their permission.  In commerce law, this is referred to as "principal and agent".  The agent (say a teller at a bank) is understood to represent the principal (the bank manager) and vice-versa.  If they misrepresent, it's the bank that must keep its word to you - not you that must be inconvenienced by the bank.  Same goes here.

As for "This limitation cannot be appealed", they mean within PayPal's internal faux-court.  In PayPal's EULA, there is a proviso which requires you to agree that, in the event of a dispute with PayPal, you agree to forfeit your access to a real court and must instead seek remedy exclusively through a hearing comprised of PayPal staff.  In 1992 a real court ruled that PayPal couldn't include that proviso, because it fraudulently convinced Paypal users that they had no access to real courts as a result.  Last I checked a few months ago, the proviso was still in PayPal's EULA despite the court ruling.

You have a strong case, and PayPal has left itself wide open in its flagrantly abusive practices.  You might come out of this financially ahead given punitive damages, and what's more a lawsuit against PayPal would be effective material for a press release.  News coverage would certainly be free advertising, and in this case such a venture would actually make it advertising that paid you instead.

Submitted for your consideration.  Be well.

[B!0HaZard]

I basically live by OCN, but I know those mods, and if one of them tipped PayPal off I'm gonna be really mad. There was a huge thread about it with like 3000 replies on OCN.

What would OCN tell Paypal that would make them shut down CoinPal? Bitcoins are goods traded by users for money and other services, so I don't see what Paypal can really do about this business. I'm don't know a lot about how the financial world works, but Bitcoins aren't "an actual currency", just virtual points that people buy/sell for real money.

PayPal, owned by eBay, is in the middle of their third class-action for defrauding customers and freezing accounts.

Regardless of whether or not the department that gave you permission to trade BitCoins was authorized to, you have their permission.  In commerce law, this is referred to as "principal and agent".  The agent (say a teller at a bank) is understood to represent the principal (the bank manager) and vice-versa.  If they misrepresent, it's the bank that must keep its word to you - not you that must be inconvenienced by the bank.  Same goes here.

As for "This limitation cannot be appealed", they mean within PayPal's internal faux-court.  In PayPal's EULA, there is a proviso which requires you to agree that, in the event of a dispute with PayPal, you agree to forfeit your access to a real court and must instead seek remedy exclusively through a hearing comprised of PayPal staff.  In 1992 a real court ruled that PayPal couldn't include that proviso, because it fraudulently convinced Paypal users that they had no access to real courts as a result.  Last I checked a few months ago, the proviso was still in PayPal's EULA despite the court ruling.

You have a strong case, and PayPal has left itself wide open in its flagrantly abusive practices.  You might come out of this financially ahead given punitive damages, and what's more a lawsuit against PayPal would be effective material for a press release.  News coverage would certainly be free advertising, and in this case such a venture would actually make it advertising that paid you instead.

Submitted for your consideration.  Be well.

This might be the greatest post I've ever read.

[Satori]

A solution would be to create a website, perhaps in Drupal, that would automatically purchase BitCoins from users who wanted to sell.  Users would log in, put their BitCoins up for sale, and the site would draw from a credit line to purchase them at current valuation.  Thus you could put cash in at one end, and accumulate a trickle of BitCoins as they came out of your site.  Your site could then also sell them to users by accepting credit card orders.  This would stimulate BitCoin usage by allowing users entry into the economy.  A minor transaction fee would probably be in order, to cover the hosting costs and credit card processing fees.

People would essentially be buying and selling with your site itself, and unlike a person it would be constantly available and always-on.

[EDIT: I recently compiled a comparison list of the top online credit card payment processing gateways, which you may find useful.]

Be well.

[PabloW]

PayPal, owned by eBay, is in the middle of their third class-action for defrauding customers and freezing accounts.

Regardless of whether or not the department that gave you permission to trade BitCoins was authorized to, you have their permission.  In commerce law, this is referred to as "principal and agent".  The agent (say a teller at a bank) is understood to represent the principal (the bank manager) and vice-versa.  If they misrepresent, it's the bank that must keep its word to you - not you that must be inconvenienced by the bank.  Same goes here.

As for "This limitation cannot be appealed", they mean within PayPal's internal faux-court.  In PayPal's EULA, there is a proviso which requires you to agree that, in the event of a dispute with PayPal, you agree to forfeit your access to a real court and must instead seek remedy exclusively through a hearing comprised of PayPal staff.  In 1992 a real court ruled that PayPal couldn't include that proviso, because it fraudulently convinced Paypal users that they had no access to real courts as a result.  Last I checked a few months ago, the proviso was still in PayPal's EULA despite the court ruling.

You have a strong case, and PayPal has left itself wide open in its flagrantly abusive practices.  You might come out of this financially ahead given punitive damages, and what's more a lawsuit against PayPal would be effective material for a press release.  News coverage would certainly be free advertising, and in this case such a venture would actually make it advertising that paid you instead.

Submitted for your consideration.  Be well.

This is VERY VERY interesting information. Ill be waiting for ndrix to respond, hopefully soon.
Also press free advertising would easily help bitcoin to spread out to the world

[frycicle]

Try Amazon Payments. It is almost the same as Paypal nad most people have Amazon accounts.

[RTJakarta]

Just reason number #9,001 why PayPal is an awful establishment. Ugh. They've had an account of mine frozen for about 6 months now.

Which wouldn't be that bad if I didn't have a few thousand in my account. Idiots. 

[Satori]

No way with such a low fraud rate that PayPal just suddenly decided to cut you off. I'll bet good bitcoins that somebody (i.e. the admins at overclock.net) tipped them off.

Actually, PayPal does this with its merchants systematically.

The frozen funds all get pooled, and PayPal earns interest off the cash while the funds remain frozen.  So they have a certain motivation to freeze accounts, then require their users to justify their existence with all sorts of paperwork they never mentioned upon sign-up.  For instance, a utility bill that must be in your name.  Not all of us have that.

In short, they're not happy until you're not happy.

The primary reason people use them as the standard is because they heard about PayPal through the mainstream media outlets.  Those media outlets are essentially owned by the same few megacorporations, so what they hype vias the media determines what the majority of people use - until people can discover a better alternative.  Thus sites like Facebook and Google, both the bastard offspring of C.I.A.-based investment firm In-Q-Tel, have become what the mainstream use.  Never mind that they work closely with the Information Awareness Office, which actively compiles data on users and tries to keep it all cross-referenced in its own databases for easy domestic snooping of citizens.  It's the federal government's approach to using commercial entities to get around the Fourth Amendment safeguard against unreasonable search and seizure, with a fair amount of tycooning and market manipulation thrown in for good measure.

Well, I say "good" measure...  

[demonofelru]

No way with such a low fraud rate that PayPal just suddenly decided to cut you off. I'll bet good bitcoins that somebody (i.e. the admins at overclock.net) tipped them off.

Actually, PayPal does this with its merchants systematically.

The frozen funds all get pooled, and PayPal earns interest off the cash while the funds remain frozen.  So they have a certain motivation to freeze accounts, then require their users to justify their existence with all sorts of paperwork they never mentioned upon sign-up.  For instance, a utility bill that must be in your name.  Not all of us have that.

In short, they're not happy until you're not happy.

The primary reason people use them as the standard is because they heard about PayPal through the mainstream media outlets.  Those are essentially owned by the same few megacorporations, so what they hype determines what the majority of people use - until they can hear of a better alternative.  Thus sites like Facebook and Google, both the bastard offspring of C.I.A.-based investment firm In-Q-Tel, have become what the mainstream use.  Never mind that they work closely with the Information Awareness Office, which actively compiles data on users and tries to keep it all cross-referenced in its own databases for easy domestic snooping of citizens.  It's the federal government's approach to using commercial entities to get around the Fourth Amendment safeguard against unreasonable search and seizure, with a fair amount of tycooning and market manipulation thrown in for good measure.

Well, I say "good" measure...   

QFT! That's why I don't use I'm out big money because a buyer said I shipped them a broken computer they shipped me back random pieces of wood.

[tomcollins]

Just reason number #9,001 why PayPal is an awful establishment. Ugh. They've had an account of mine frozen for about 6 months now.

Which wouldn't be that bad if I didn't have a few thousand in my account. Idiots. 

PayPal was founded with such noble intentions.  It's a shame such assclowns are now in charge.

I have a feeling it will only get harder and harder to purchase/sell Bitcoins, the fees will rise as the risk level rises, and they drown the currency.  I am more committed than ever to make this work, though.  This mean WAR!

[RTJakarta]

No way with such a low fraud rate that PayPal just suddenly decided to cut you off. I'll bet good bitcoins that somebody (i.e. the admins at overclock.net) tipped them off.

Actually, PayPal does this with its merchants systematically.

The frozen funds all get pooled, and PayPal earns interest off the cash while the funds remain frozen.  So they have a certain motivation to freeze accounts, then require their users to justify their existence with all sorts of paperwork they never mentioned upon sign-up.  For instance, a utility bill that must be in your name.  Not all of us have that.

Exactly. God. Then I'm sure when I have utilities in my name, I'll be asked to scan copy of my 4th grade report card...

[Anonymous]

They are scared. It means we are winning.

I hope it goes well for you mndrix.

[tomcollins]

They are scared. It means we are winning.

I hope it goes well for you mndrix.

It depends what they are scared of.  They have to avoid government scrutiny as well, and they have a lot on the line to lose if they piss off the government.  So it's not *entirely* their fault they suck.

[shivansps]

mmmmm what about using some system like, Payoneer instead of paypal?

[kiba]

Bitcoin is not the natural enemy of Paypal.

They just decide to be assholes a long time ago and end up making lot of enemies.

[Satori]

The frozen funds all get pooled, and PayPal earns interest off the cash while the funds remain frozen.  So they have a certain motivation to freeze accounts, then require their users to justify their existence with all sorts of paperwork they never mentioned upon sign-up.  For instance, a utility bill that must be in your name.  Not all of us have that.

Here's a thought.  What about a site which accepted credit card payments from users who sought to purchase BitCoins, and then bought BitCoins when other users sold them to the site?  It could then transfer its BitCoins to users who'd already paid, on a first-come, first-served basis.

You'd be enabling people to acquire BitCoins with cash.  You'd be earning interest off the cash in the meantime.  The availability of BitCoins would help the system thrive.  The steady demand for BitCoins would make them even more valuable, and cause an increase in their valuation.  BitCoins at once become more accessible to people, and yet also worth more.

You'd have legitimate interest earned off the funds, much as PayPal does but in this case legitimately, to fund the server costs and credit card processing.  The site would be providing quite a service to the BitCoin community, and potentially gleaning interest above costs, without having to charge users for the convenience.

[proudhon]

Today PayPal called to say they were freezing my account because they consider Bitcoins an "ecurrency".  I told them that they had given me permission on two separate occasions to sell Bitcoins.  They responded, "that department isn't authorized to make those decisions."  The official statement in my account says "This limitation cannot be appealed."

Well, on the bright side, now it's official, bitcoin is a currency.  Next up, Amazon.

[xf2_org]

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Ghandi

Eventually PayPal will support BTC as a currency, just like they support USD or EUR.  Then we win.