CoinPal beta - Buying bitcoins with PayPal

[Satori]

Actually we could create a "Western Union" ourselves, doing e-transfers by BTC and local by cash.
Eg:

A is in US and needs to send 1000 US to B that is in China
A contacts C who deals with BTC - OR - A himself has a 1000USD worth of BTC
A/C sends the BTC to the Chinese local operator who delivers the money to B.

Alternative paths would include:

A buying 1000USD worth of BTC from C and send them to the Chinese operator

A sending BTC to B who cashes them out with the Chinese operator

This would need just a bit of organization to put forth, along with ways to contact the needed operators.

Nice.

A Google Map, with people adding labels for their location and contact info, would do it.

...and relinquish their anonymity in the process.

[1714152644]

1714152644

[1714152644]

1714152644

[LightRider]

This is very similar to what www.Ubitex.org is doing.

[BCEmporium]

Nice.

A Google Map, with people adding labels for their location and contact info, would do it.

...and relinquish their anonymity in the process.

I believe this would need a bit more organization than a simple distributed grid, specially due to liquidity. Imagine you sent some BTC, like $100 worth, to someone that's near an "independent exchanger" for him to cash it back, if that independent exchanger has no more than $10 with him the cashing out wouldn't be possible.

[TiagoTiago]

Actually we could create a "Western Union" ourselves, doing e-transfers by BTC and local by cash.
Eg:

A is in US and needs to send 1000 US to B that is in China
A contacts C who deals with BTC - OR - A himself has a 1000USD worth of BTC
A/C sends the BTC to the Chinese local operator who delivers the money to B.

Alternative paths would include:

A buying 1000USD worth of BTC from C and send them to the Chinese operator

A sending BTC to B who cashes them out with the Chinese operator

This would need just a bit of organization to put forth, along with ways to contact the needed operators.

If we had local exchangers everywhere we wouldn't be having this discussion to start with

[CaptainPicard]

Here is a way to get around paypal's rules about selling currency.

You setup your website so the user can have a balance in BTC and USD (or whatever currency you like).
You use paypal to add money, or cash out from your sites USD balance.
Another way is to sell "tokens" or whatever you want to call the balance on your site.

Your site will then do conversion between BTC and USD using the balance in his account.
The difference here is that you are not selling currency (BTC) with paypal, you are selling tokens for your site.

You could also do it more practical, like sell email addresses (customer@yourdomain.com) for $50.
Then allow customer to sell the email address back to you for bitcoins.
It doesn't have to be emails, you could do this by selling anything that you can create one time and does not cost anything further to distribute, like software license keys etc...
Again here your not directly exchanging BTC for paypal.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Here is a way to get around paypal's rules about selling currency.

You setup your website so the user can have a balance in BTC and USD (or whatever currency you like).
You use paypal to add money, or cash out from your sites USD balance.
Another way is to sell "tokens" or whatever you want to call the balance on your site.

Your site will then do conversion between BTC and USD using the balance in his account.
The difference here is that you are not selling currency (BTC) with paypal, you are selling tokens for your site.

You could also do it more practical, like sell email addresses (customer@yourdomain.com) for $50.
Then allow customer to sell the email address back to you for bitcoins.
It doesn't have to be emails, you could do this by selling anything that you can create one time and does not cost anything further to distribute, like software license keys etc...
Again here your not directly exchanging BTC for paypal.

Precisely right. Selling crypto-keys associated-with/linked-to/backed-by merchant held accounts is perfectly acceptable. Open Transactions already has all the machinery in place for merchants, exchangers to do all this, essentially issue their own keys/token/licences/currency (call it whatever you like at this point) Merchant Credits ... OT can do all this if someone wanted to just use the back-end library and API, then put a web interface on top of it.

[bitcoinTrader]

mndrix,

Any update on the situation?

[bitcoinTrader]

Here is a way to get around paypal's rules about selling currency.

You setup your website so the user can have a balance in BTC and USD (or whatever currency you like).
You use paypal to add money, or cash out from your sites USD balance.
Another way is to sell "tokens" or whatever you want to call the balance on your site.

Your site will then do conversion between BTC and USD using the balance in his account.
The difference here is that you are not selling currency (BTC) with paypal, you are selling tokens for your site.

You could also do it more practical, like sell email addresses (customer@yourdomain.com) for $50.
Then allow customer to sell the email address back to you for bitcoins.
It doesn't have to be emails, you could do this by selling anything that you can create one time and does not cost anything further to distribute, like software license keys etc...
Again here your not directly exchanging BTC for paypal.

Precisely right. Selling crypto-keys associated-with/linked-to/backed-by merchant held accounts is perfectly acceptable. Open Transactions already has all the machinery in place for merchants, exchangers to do all this, essentially issue their own keys/token/licences/currency (call it whatever you like at this point) Merchant Credits ... OT can do all this if someone wanted to just use the back-end library and API, then put a web interface on top of it.

If any1 wants to develop frontend for OT, I am available, since I am already doing it currently for the Money Changer OT client.

[mewantsbitcoins]

I heard a rumor that mndrix sent paypal a letter. In the envelope there was nothing except this picture:

[AntiVigilante]

I heard a rumor that mndrix sent paypal a letter. In the envelope there was nothing except this picture:

the man is a fighter

[mndrix]

Any update on the situation?

Nothing much to report.  PayPal will keep my frozen funds for the next 6 months.  I won't try to persuade them otherwise.  I have obligations that will occupy my time for the next few months.  When those projects are done, I'll revisit CoinPal/CoinCard and decide how to proceed.

I'm still very interested in Bitcoin and plan to continue working on Bitcoin projects.  The Bitcoin ecosystem can change a lot in a few months.  When that time comes, I'll see what needs can be met and go from there.

[deadlizard]

I won't try to persuade them otherwise. 

meanwhile they earn interest on your money.
I couldn't take that lying down, but then again losing that amount of money would break me.
To each his own. I'm glad you won't let this deter you from working on bitcoin projects in the future 

[EvanR]

I got a call from phone number 402 935 7733. While answering I dropped the phone and it rebooted, cancelling the call. Research suggests it's paypal calling about unusual activity on my account. People reported questions like 'what kind of items are you selling' and 'do you intend to continue selling this kind of item.' I don't know what they would have asked me, but this is disturbing.

I have used coinpal once, and I trade with a lot of people on #bitcoin-otc. Something tells me I'm in the middle of a giant witch hunt. Nothing of mine has been frozen yet, and I am keeping zero balance in my account.

Reviewing the terms of service to determine if I have to answer those above questions. Not that it would stop them from freezing my account if I don't.

[Anonymous]

I got a call from phone number 402 935 7733. While answering I dropped the phone and it rebooted, cancelling the call. Research suggests it's paypal calling about unusual activity on my account. People reported questions like 'what kind of items are you selling' and 'do you intend to continue selling this kind of item.' I don't know what they would have asked me, but this is disturbing.

I have used coinpal once, and I trade with a lot of people on #bitcoin-otc. Something tells me I'm in the middle of a giant witch hunt. Nothing of mine has been frozen yet, and I am keeping zero balance in my account.

Reviewing the terms of service to determine if I have to answer those above questions. Not that it would stop them from freezing my account if I don't.

This is almost stalkerish on the part of paypal. Ive heard a few bitcoiners so far  have been contacted by them personally at home and at their places of work. I suspect they have created some sort of data mining to link anyone using services like coinpal and other people who publicly accept paypal for btc.

Perhaps its time to collect data on paypal and note when they ring and what questions they ask. It needs some sort of strategy because a private company targetting individuals like this is unnacceptable. If this continues I suggest all the data be shown to the EFF. I can imagine the publicity if it got out what paypal is doing here.

 

[trentzb]

Perhaps its time to collect data on paypal and note when they ring and what questions they ask. It needs some sort of strategy because a private company targetting individuals like this is unnacceptable. If this continues I suggest all the data be shown to the EFF. I can imagine the publicity if it got out what paypal is doing here.

The next time someone gets a call from PayPal answer and tell them you can't talk right now but will be happy to call them back shortly, get a phone number to call them back at, return their call and record the conversation. You do NOT need to get their consent to record the call legally. The recording can also be presented in a court as evidence. This is legal in all states in the USA, I don't know about the legality in other countries.

[SgtSpike]

Perhaps its time to collect data on paypal and note when they ring and what questions they ask. It needs some sort of strategy because a private company targetting individuals like this is unnacceptable. If this continues I suggest all the data be shown to the EFF. I can imagine the publicity if it got out what paypal is doing here.

The next time someone gets a call from PayPal answer and tell them you can't talk right now but will be happy to call them back shortly, get a phone number to call them back at, return their call and record the conversation. You do NOT need to get their consent to record the call legally. The recording can also be presented in a court as evidence. This is legal in all states in the USA, I don't know about the legality in other countries.

Uh... you may not need their consent, but in the majority of states, you DO need to notify them that you are recording the phone call.  It is inadmissible as evidence if you do not follow your local laws regarding this.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps its time to collect data on paypal and note when they ring and what questions they ask. It needs some sort of strategy because a private company targetting individuals like this is unnacceptable. If this continues I suggest all the data be shown to the EFF. I can imagine the publicity if it got out what paypal is doing here.

The next time someone gets a call from PayPal answer and tell them you can't talk right now but will be happy to call them back shortly, get a phone number to call them back at, return their call and record the conversation. You do NOT need to get their consent to record the call legally. The recording can also be presented in a court as evidence. This is legal in all states in the USA, I don't know about the legality in other countries.

Uh... you may not need their consent, but in the majority of states, you DO need to notify them that you are recording the phone call.  It is inadmissible as evidence if you do not follow your local laws regarding this.

Agreed. And record yourself telling them that.

[trentzb]

Uh... you may not need their consent, but in the majority of states, you DO need to notify them that you are recording the phone call.  It is inadmissible as evidence if you do not follow your local laws regarding this.

Agreed. And record yourself telling them that.

Sorry, I misspoke. You do NOT need to notify them that you are recording the phone call. I just rang PayPal to double check at 1-402-935-2050 and verified. They give you their consent at the beginning of the call, no need to notify or ask for consent. Listen carefully to their consent and make your own determination whether it could be provided as evidence in court. I would have no hesitation recording a call (and have many times) and presenting it in court if necessary (no need as of yet).

You gave your consent by calling them, they gave their consent at the beginning of the call. This IMO satisfies 2-party consent.

[SgtSpike]

Uh... you may not need their consent, but in the majority of states, you DO need to notify them that you are recording the phone call.  It is inadmissible as evidence if you do not follow your local laws regarding this.

Agreed. And record yourself telling them that.

Sorry, I misspoke. You do NOT need to notify them that you are recording the phone call. I just rang PayPal to double check at 1-402-935-2050 and verified. They give you their consent at the beginning of the call, no need to notify or ask for consent. Listen carefully to their consent and make your own determination whether it could be provided as evidence in court. I would have no hesitation recording a call (and have many times) and presenting it in court if necessary (no need as of yet).

You gave your consent by calling them, they gave their consent at the beginning of the call. This IMO satisfies 2-party consent.

Ah, I didn't realize they gave consent before you even asked for it.    I would agree then, you shouldn't have to notify them of call recording if they explicitly state that it is ok for you to record their calls.

[BCEmporium]

Not to alarm you, but some people also found some withdrawals from their Paypal-linked account/CC after receiving those calls.
Something like: PAYPAL 4029357733 SGP.

Rather keep an eye over your accounting for a while, just in case.

Paypal is really getting desperate with bitcoin, isn't it?