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Author Topic: ✨✨✨ Are we wasting resources to make digital currencies? ✨✨✨  (Read 869 times)
krauzzer02
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December 12, 2017, 01:22:00 PM
 #21

It appears that mining costs and the creation of crypto currencies consumes a lot of resources Cry

We have very little resources remaining in the world for each other and future generations. Does it make sense to waste resources like this? Could we do this in a cheaper and more economically friendly manner? And does the value of bitcoin directly correlate to the amount of resources and man hours that are destroyed in order to create it?
what about human beings in the total of the whole population on earth who waste tons of resources and energy with useless and stupid things is that also counted? how about big factories not just consumes a lot of resources but also produces pollution to the mother nature? not just bitcoin mining but every business and firm costs expensive resources and money just to retain and advertise it, what do you expect to establish a business? money free that comes from nowhere? use green energy and other alternative methods to save electricity, there are a lot of people who are smart enough to mine at cheaper costs.
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December 12, 2017, 06:03:41 PM
 #22


Im not being too scientific here but they always said energy can not be created and nor it can be destroyed. So the question is why we should be worrying about that. We are already warming up the global atmosphere with what we do today and if bitcoin is doing the same then what the problem? Why we should stop bitcoin at the first glance? Why we can’t stop using the cars, industries, private companies, IT worlds, air-travels etc etc? They are also using the highest resources of the earth and are more costlier than the bitcoin in first place.

The thing is we can’t stop using them, because we now rely on them completely, we are used to them and they are our daily life needs.

In the similar ways, bitcoin is into our hearts now, it gives us financial income which we in turn use for carving our daily life needs. So I think we are clear here on the topic that why digital currency can’t be stopped. Because its a need :-)

Are you honestly comparing cars (used by billions daily) with bitcoin and 400k tx/day?
Really?

There are 1 million 911 calls each day, most end up using with a car deployed (police , fire, ambulance).

Do an experiment for one week.

a) try to live without bitcoins
b) try to live without using a car or something that wasn't transported using a car

Let's see the results.

Anyhow, the enormous consume will go down once the reward will get smaller and smaller (yeah I know it's a decade) and the miners will only get paid how much people want to spend on transaction fees.


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Hydrogen
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December 12, 2017, 09:35:10 PM
 #23

This makes no sense.
If people would stop eating meat there would be no demand so no more energy spent on growing livestock.

If cryptos would get banned across the world (and we consider an all out ban with prison terms) the value would drop back to the closure of SR levels and mining will not be profitable until 90% of them quit, resulting in a drop of energy consumption.
I don't know where you get your logic...change the supplier.

The issue with meat is, demand greatly surpasses supply by a considerable margin. If a considerable proportion of the population quit eating meat there would still be overwhelming demand. There are many people and families who would eat steak dinners every night if they could afford to. Meat is a luxury food item for many and that isn't likely to change anytime soon for the same reasons people aren't likely to give up sharkfin soup or other food items which threaten endangerment or extinction of animal species on the endangered list.

Electrical energy consumption is constantly rising.



Bitcoin doesn't change the world's energy needs increasing on an annual basis and its impact on this historical trend is negligible at best.

If those miners would not consume green energy, that energy would be consumed by others and coal generated energy would drop.
And California is importing energy , close to 33% of their entire demand.

Here's an interior picture of a bitcoin mining facility in china.



Exterior photo of the same mining facility(blue roof), it is powered by a small hydroelectric plant harnessing power from the river.



Hydroelectric power is slightly cheaper (and more environmentally friendly) than coal and so could represent a natural progression for bitcoin mining ops.

One issue with the media's claim of "bitcoin being bad for the environment" is there is zero effort to quantify how many bitcoin mining ops utilize hydroelectric or other forms of power. They simply assume "coal" which is the worst case scenario.

China has been credited with having 14 of the top 30 most polluted cities in the world long before bitcoin mining went mainstream. There is no objective breakdown of the biggest wasters of electricity, or largest contributors to climate change. Only assumptions being made about bitcoin's role in contributing to both.

....

Here's a source for california paying neighboring arizona to take their excess electricity to avoid damaging their power grid from the excess power produced:

Quote
California invested heavily in solar power. Now there's so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it

On 14 days during March, Arizona utilities got a gift from California: free solar power.

Well, actually better than free. California produced so much solar power on those days that it paid Arizona to take excess electricity its residents weren’t using to avoid overloading its own power lines.

It happened on eight days in January and nine in February as well. All told, those transactions helped save Arizona electricity customers millions of dollars this year, though grid operators declined to say exactly how much. And California also has paid other states to take power.

The number of days that California dumped its unused solar electricity would have been even higher if the state hadn’t ordered some solar plants to reduce production — even as natural gas power plants, which contribute to greenhouse gas emissions, continued generating electricity.

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-solar/

The article above seems to indicate that power generation is so high in some regions they might actually benefit from the higher energy consumption of bitcoin mining enterprises as it would reduce their need to outsource power to neighboring states.
savioroshan
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December 12, 2017, 09:52:28 PM
 #24

So that means you are thinking that for making fiat currencies we are not wasting our natural resources. Right? You are wrong. To make paper and ink for fiat currencies definitely we are using natural resources. If you start thinking in that way then you wont be able to use anything that is available in market. But nowadays many people are mining cryptocurrencies using renewable energy sources to get profit . I think  in the coming years everybody will shift to that to avoid hugh electricity bills.
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December 12, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
 #25

It´s a discussion with lack of knowledge and short sight viewpoint, yes we spend, not waste a lot of energy to generate value, but the reason why we don´t have more than abundant energy to use both to mine wealth and to use in our daily lives is due to lack of investments and greed. We have plenty of solar energy, not farmed enough and also wind energy that can be reaped by and large. So, it´s not like we don´t have energy unless you killing the sun or stopping the winds tomorrow. Stop bitching about "energy wasting" and start promoting cheap energy.

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ShortCoins (OP)
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December 12, 2017, 11:52:37 PM
 #26

Everyone is so caught up on the fact that fiat money is wasting a lot of resources too!

Well no shit!

Just because our current banking system is very wasteful doesn't mean we should continue down that path!

We still need to use fiat money to purchase bitcoin. Bitcoin is causing destruction of resources through mining and through the fact that fiat money is still required to purchase bitcoin. Digital currencies should have the benefit of not wasting resources. Can you imagine how much electricity we will waste to produce a single bitcoin in the year 2100?

The waste is just really pathetic and shows humanity's disregard for the planet in general. We are all destroying this world together
Good Bo
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December 12, 2017, 11:57:05 PM
 #27

It appears that mining costs and the creation of crypto currencies consumes a lot of resources Cry

We have very little resources remaining in the world for each other and future generations. Does it make sense to waste resources like this? Could we do this in a cheaper and more economically friendly manner? And does the value of bitcoin directly correlate to the amount of resources and man hours that are destroyed in order to create it?

It is true we need to prepare resources for our new generation in future because we have limited resources.
In other side, we try to make this digital currency also for future. I think create digital currency is same important with the resources itself.
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December 12, 2017, 11:58:29 PM
 #28

It appears that mining costs and the creation of crypto currencies consumes a lot of resources Cry

Have you compared it to gold mining? Mining and recycling gold consumes far more energy. It's important to keep this in perspective as environmentalists begin complaining about Bitcoin's energy consumption. Here's a recent comparison:

Quote
But in his paper, Vranken counters that in the 100MW to 500MW range, bitcoin mining requires between 0.8KWh to 4.4KWh per year, but the energy required for mining and recycling gold – which backs US currency – is 138KWh a year, while printing paper notes and minting coins is 11KWh. He pins the banking system, including not only its data centres but also its branches and ATMs, at 650KWh.

In the same article, one researcher -- Marc Bevand -- claims that Bitcoin mining uses ~ 4TWh annually, which is considerably less energy than is used by Christmas lights in the US during the holiday season. Granted, as difficulty grows and proof-of-work becomes increasingly difficult in the context of decreasing block subsidy, the network's energy consumption can be expected to increase.

But my point is this: When we consider how much energy is consumed by Bitcoin, you have to consider the alternatives (like gold), which have significant energy costs themselves.

ShortCoins (OP)
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December 13, 2017, 12:06:47 AM
 #29

Keep in mind I am all about saving resources and energy.

I 100% agree that fiat money wastes resources too. But you all are REALLY missing the point

We had no choice but to waste resources on fiat money. It has to be minted, protected, maintained, changed out etc. Not to mention security and that stuff. We do have a choice when we move to a digital currency to waste as close to 0 resources as possible. Instead we are doing the exact opposite. The very nature of bitcoin requires us to WASTE more and MORE resources as it is made. We are exponentially wasting more resources on this. And its really sad.

This is in addition to resources we are already wasting on fiat!! I am upset about that too.

But now we are wasting resources on BOTH!

Do you guys not get it?  Cry
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December 13, 2017, 12:18:20 AM
 #30

I think one reason we waste here is the power supply of the computer, cost of electricty, We need to save resources and energy. in the future we will see a quantum resistance, is just like internet of things so we can't affect the electric usage supply.

ShortCoins (OP)
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December 13, 2017, 03:20:43 AM
 #31

Are there any environmental friendly cryptos? Bitcoin is destroying so many resources
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December 13, 2017, 03:30:35 AM
 #32

I don't think so. Bitcoin actually looks like a lot of electricity. It needs to know that these electric power are idle in many countries. People will not set up mines in the downtown area. In addition, bitcoin is of real value. It can promote efficient transactions and allow people all over the world to deal immediately at the same time.

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December 13, 2017, 04:45:08 AM
 #33

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It can promote efficient transactions

Right now its 15 hours of wait time and fees as high as $35+

I would say bitcoin is not an efficient way to do transactions at the current time.
The_prodigy
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December 13, 2017, 05:05:49 AM
 #34

It appears that mining costs and the creation of crypto currencies consumes a lot of resources Cry

We have very little resources remaining in the world for each other and future generations. Does it make sense to waste resources like this? Could we do this in a cheaper and more economically friendly manner? And does the value of bitcoin directly correlate to the amount of resources and man hours that are destroyed in order to create it?

No we are not it is actually logical that with our trend towards innovation and technology that we go all in towards having a digitized currency. In the future when we have a whole lot of technology abound then bitcoin and cryptocurrency is the way to go
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December 13, 2017, 01:02:01 PM
 #35

As long as it's useful I think there's no problem, bitcoin does make a lot of waste of resources. But back again, what bitcoin give to us.
Rather than wasting resources only for something that is not useful, It would be better if used for this kind of thing.
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December 13, 2017, 11:10:34 PM
 #36

Have you compared it to gold mining? Mining and recycling gold consumes far more energy. It's important to keep this in perspective as environmentalists begin complaining about Bitcoin's energy consumption. Here's a recent comparison:

Quote
But in his paper, Vranken counters that in the 100MW to 500MW range, bitcoin mining requires between 0.8KWh to 4.4KWh per year, but the energy required for mining and recycling gold – which backs US currency – is 138KWh a year, while printing paper notes and minting coins is 11KWh. He pins the banking system, including not only its data centres but also its branches and ATMs, at 650KWh.

In the same article, one researcher -- Marc Bevand -- claims that Bitcoin mining uses ~ 4TWh annually, which is considerably less energy than is used by Christmas lights in the US during the holiday season. Granted, as difficulty grows and proof-of-work becomes increasingly difficult in the context of decreasing block subsidy, the network's energy consumption can be expected to increase.

But my point is this: When we consider how much energy is consumed by Bitcoin, you have to consider the alternatives (like gold), which have significant energy costs themselves.

Good information(bolded^). That's what I was expecting to see in a valid breakdown.

According to polls, only 2% of americans have used bitcoin or a crypto currency. Bitcoin's userbase being extremely small across a global scale, it isn't likely to consume as much power as critics claim.

It could help to know some bitcoin mining installations in china are powered by hydroelectric power rather than coal. Earlier this year russia proposed construction of bitcoin miners powered by nuclear energy.

The media claims all bitcoin mining is powered by coal and other extremely polluting hydrocarbon based energy sources but this is not true.
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December 13, 2017, 11:19:25 PM
 #37

Quote
I have made enough money to retire myself before my 25 years old

Maybe you can spend some of that money on an education now Smiley




The lady that calls Bitcoin a "Ponzi" is telling someone to buy an education. The irony.

Now to the educated definition of words......

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator generates returns for older investors through revenue paid by new investors, rather than from legitimate business activities or profit of financial trading. Operators of Ponzi schemes can be either individuals or corporations, and grab the attention of new investors by offering short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Who is the "operator" of Bitcoin?

Who offered you short term returns?

Never type "educated" again. Matter of fact define "educated" in your own words. Watch the crickets everyone.
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December 13, 2017, 11:24:15 PM
 #38

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Are there any environmental friendly cryptos? Bitcoin is destroying so many resources

Long time ago there was Primecoin which used some algorithm to find prime numbers. Why are they so important is simply explaind here:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/439870/why-are-primes-important-in-cryptography

It looks like that the idea to both secure currency and do something more usefull while mining has not developed. I mined some of them at the very begininng of the project, but it did not make me millionaire - Primecoin is now nearly dead  Wink
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December 13, 2017, 11:29:06 PM
 #39

Electricity consumption with bitcoin is termed to be the waste of resource. This is true, because than many other needs the electricity consumed by cryptocurrency is big. At the same time this is to change the entire system as well the efficiency is high than most other technologies available so no need of thinking about the wasting of resources.
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December 13, 2017, 11:29:20 PM
 #40

you only see mining and creating crypto currencies causes problem but you don't see that it is a great help to many people.
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