I am willing to argue public education has ruined this country...

[Hawker]

The best education is right at hand in your own home and with the time you spend with your child. As long as you have a good resource of information (internet anyone?) and the means to facilitate it, learning and education is inherent.

Throughout most of American history, kids generally didn't go to high school, yet the unschooled rose to be admirals, like Farragut; inventors, like Edison; captains of industry like Carnegie and Rockefeller; writers, like Melville and Twain and Conrad; and even scholars, like Margaret Mead. In fact, until pretty recently people who reached the age of thirteen weren't looked upon as children at all. Ariel Durant, who co-wrote an enormous, and very good, multivolume history of the world with her husband, Will, was happily married at fifteen, and who could reasonably claim that Ariel Durant was an uneducated person? Unschooled, perhaps, but not uneducated.

Those days are long gone.  Modern society has huge sectors who don't care about education and if their child, especially if its a girl, hits 18 as an illiterate, they won't care.  There are also huge numbers of families where both parents work.   Its better that kids have some education regardless of the quality of the home environment and if people vote for the state to provide that education, you have to accept that.

The good news is that you don't have to accept it for your own family.  You can homeschool your kids, or send them to a Montessori school or do whatever.  It doesn't affect you that other parents don't care.

The reason both parents most work is due to the horrible practices of our overlords. The economy is stagnant. In addition, never in America has a child been left without books and information to consume. Our culture is too information-oriented. Illiteracy just does not happen.

I have to accept paying for this abomination. I have to accept that slavery.

It does effect me when I can't build anything except with an incompetent workforce of over-dependent drones. Luckily the internet attracts the foam that rises from this cesspool.

The Americans who work for me are great.  If you really have an incompetent workforce of over-dependent drones, perhaps you could reconsider your hiring strategy ?  

[myrkul]

It does effect me when I can't build anything except with an incompetent workforce of over-dependent drones. Luckily the internet attracts the foam that rises from this cesspool.

i offer a small mnemonic, learned in the US public education system of the 1950s...

Back when they still cared about these things...

than/then
affect/effect
etc... I weep for the English language.

[Jaime Frontero]

It does effect me when I can't build anything except with an incompetent workforce of over-dependent drones. Luckily the internet attracts the foam that rises from this cesspool.

i offer a small mnemonic, learned in the US public education system of the 1950s...

Back when they still cared about these things...

than/then
affect/effect
etc... I weep for the English language.

yes.  what a wonderfully complex and strange language it is.

i try not to be overly sensitive.  there's too many native speakers of other languages here, for one thing.

still, whenever i think it might be useful...

[Anonymous]

It does effect me when I can't build anything except with an incompetent workforce of over-dependent drones. Luckily the internet attracts the foam that rises from this cesspool.

i offer a small mnemonic, learned in the US public education system of the 1950s...

an affect produces an effect.  the two are in alphabetical order.

"it affects".  "an effect".

an affect essentially refers to an externalality - and is easy to remember due to having the opposite leading vowel.

no offense intended - offered only as a useful memory jog...

I got my message across. It is intelligible. I am aware of the proper spellings but in the end it's just pedantry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

[em3rgentOrdr]

Wow, looks like this thread has devolved into the issue of Sweden.

Is Sweden a Social Democracy?
Is Sweden a small government city-state smaller than most US states?
Have the Voters voted for the Social Democratic Party?
Is unemployment in Sweden high or low?
Is Sweden culturally and racially homogeneous?
Is Sweden cultural and racial homogeneity good or bad for the economy?
Is Sweden generous to immigrants?
Are there a significant number of immigrants in Sweden?
What are the attitudes of ordinary Swedes towards immigration?
Is Sweden's actual tax rate higher or lower than in US?
Is Sweden's economy good or bad?
Does Sweden's government actually help make the disadvantaged more Independent and self-sustaining or does it create an entire social class dependent on government welfare?

I could go on.  I've been to this thread before...

Atlas - you have not suggested an alternative?

Umm...have you ever checked out something called "Google" or "The Internet"?

[myrkul]

I got my message across. It is intelligible. I am aware of the proper spellings but in the end it's just pedantry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

Atlas, Considering the title of this thread, it's probably best not to give the trolls ammo, dig?

[jgraham]

I need to know what's on those international tests before I can deduce anything from the score.

So you didn't examine any large sample of geographically and ethnically diverse data before reaching your conclusion** (Note, here I mean your conclusion about "public education" not your conclusion about international tests).

...and can anyone point me to where Atlas makes something resembling a cogent argument.  i.e.  A set of falsifiable premises which force his conclusion.  I read one incomplete quote by JTG who apparently cites the selling of Thomas Panes work as a useful metric for literacy.  That easily became a DR because of the amount of mathematical ignorance involved.

(**Preparing myself here for yet another grade-school redefining of terms!)

[AyeYo]

I need to know what's on those international tests before I can deduce anything from the score.

So you didn't examine any large sample of geographically and ethnically diverse data before reaching your conclusion** (Note, here I mean your conclusion about "public education" not your conclusion about international tests).

...and can anyone point me to where Atlas makes something resembling a cogent argument.  i.e.  A set of falsifiable premises which force his conclusion.  I read one incomplete quote by JTG who apparently cites the selling of Thomas Panes work as a useful metric for literacy.  That easily became a DR because of the amount of mathematical ignorance involved.

(**Preparing myself here for yet another grade-school redefining of terms!)

He doesn't do that, he just uses a lot of hyperbole to make bold, sweeping statements that are never backed up by anything of substance.

I spent almost two pages in another thread attempting to pin him down and actually make him explain/back up his statement (he said businesses now have no incentive to create safer products), but it was lost cause and he eventually just ignored the thread.

[Anonymous]

Repeat: They have no incentive because the government prevents them from being liable through poor regulation.

[jgraham]

I need to know what's on those international tests before I can deduce anything from the score.

So you didn't examine any large sample of geographically and ethnically diverse data before reaching your conclusion** (Note, here I mean your conclusion about "public education" not your conclusion about international tests).

...and can anyone point me to where Atlas makes something resembling a cogent argument.  i.e.  A set of falsifiable premises which force his conclusion.  I read one incomplete quote by JTG who apparently cites the selling of Thomas Panes work as a useful metric for literacy.  That easily became a DR because of the amount of mathematical ignorance involved.

(**Preparing myself here for yet another grade-school redefining of terms!)

He doesn't do that, he just uses a lot of hyperbole to make bold, sweeping statements that are never backed up by anything of substance.

I spent almost two pages in another thread attempting to pin him down and actually make him explain/back up his statement (he said businesses now have no incentive to create safer products), but it was lost cause and he eventually just ignored the thread.

Yeah, it's sad in a way.   I'm never met Ayn Rand but despite that she was a little nuts I wonder how she would have viewed her modern-day crybaby progeny (probably with disgust as she viewed even the most resolute of her followers that way).   It's pretty funny how many of the self-described Objectivists I meet are whiny sniveling complainers.   When Galt got sick of the world he went off to do great things.  What great thing is our our Atlas doing?  Atlas Shrugged?  Bah!  Atlas Whined is more like it.

Incidentally I don't know what *businesses* you or he are referring to but to take medicine for example. It would be difficult to point to many places in the history of medical science where businesses who were, not to put too fine a point on it were executing people changed their ways because of some kind of laissez-faire capitalism instead rather due to altruistic individuals and government intervention and it seems reasonable to believe that this approach will continue to improve medicine if you take a look at the revisions to the Declaration of Helsinki in 2000 calling for active control trials rather than placebo control trials.

IMHO Rand's "rational self-interest" is essentially begging the question.

[Anonymous]

You have no idea what I'm building.

In addition, who's the objectivist here? I have yet to meet him.

[AyeYo]

I need to know what's on those international tests before I can deduce anything from the score.

So you didn't examine any large sample of geographically and ethnically diverse data before reaching your conclusion** (Note, here I mean your conclusion about "public education" not your conclusion about international tests).

...and can anyone point me to where Atlas makes something resembling a cogent argument.  i.e.  A set of falsifiable premises which force his conclusion.  I read one incomplete quote by JTG who apparently cites the selling of Thomas Panes work as a useful metric for literacy.  That easily became a DR because of the amount of mathematical ignorance involved.

(**Preparing myself here for yet another grade-school redefining of terms!)

He doesn't do that, he just uses a lot of hyperbole to make bold, sweeping statements that are never backed up by anything of substance.

I spent almost two pages in another thread attempting to pin him down and actually make him explain/back up his statement (he said businesses now have no incentive to create safer products), but it was lost cause and he eventually just ignored the thread.

Yeah, it's sad in a way.   I'm never met Ayn Rand but despite that she was a little nuts I wonder how she would have viewed her modern-day crybaby progeny (probably with disgust as she viewed even the most resolute of her followers that way).   It's pretty funny how many of the self-described Objectivists I meet are whiny sniveling complainers.   When Galt got sick of the world he went off to do great things.  What great thing is our our Atlas doing?  Atlas Shrugged?  Bah!  Atlas Whined is more like it.

Incidentally I don't know what *businesses* you or he are referring to but to take medicine for example. It would be difficult to point to many places in the history of medical science where businesses who were, not to put too fine a point on it were executing people changed their ways because of some kind of laissez-faire capitalism instead rather due to altruistic individuals and government intervention and it seems reasonable to believe that this approach will continue to improve medicine if you take a look at the revisions to the Declaration of Helsinki in 2000 calling for active control trials rather than placebo control trials.

IMHO Rand's "rational self-interest" is essentially begging the question.

Right on the money.  Free market rule #1: businesses will attempt to get away with whatever they can, for as long as they can.

[Anonymous]

Free market rule #2: The people's desires will be met. If people want sound safe products, they will be provided. If they don't like murder, there will not be murder.

[jgraham]

Free market rule #2: The people's desires will be met. If people want sound safe products, they will be provided. If they don't like murder, there will not be murder.

Now the whiner pops out of his hidey hole.  How about defending the topic at hand eh? 

If you recall.  I was asking where you provide something resembling a cogent argument for your position.  i.e. A set of premises that force your conclusion.

[AyeYo]

Oh, that's right, this thread is about education.  So let's hear it, the Atlas proof of American public education failure.  Ready?  Go!

[jgraham]

Oh, that's right, this thread is about education.  So let's hear it, the Atlas proof of American public education failure.  Ready?  Go!

Whoa there!  I don't need a proof.  I just need an argument. Just because premises force a conclusion doesn't mean that the conclusion is true.  All premises must be true too.  Once he provides them...then I suspect it will be pretty easy to defeat the argument.

The only argument that has no possibility of defeat is one that is never poised...something of a specialty for Atlas of Whine.

[Anonymous]

Free market rule #2: The people's desires will be met. If people want sound safe products, they will be provided. If they don't like murder, there will not be murder.

Now the whiner pops out of his hidey hole.  How about defending the topic at hand eh?  

If you recall.  I was asking where you provide something resembling a cogent argument for your position.  i.e. A set of premises that force your conclusion.

All I have to provide is the history of our species. We have thrived, grown and built upon foundations built in times with no monopolies on education nor through any structured education period.

In addition, the current American system of learning  were made by leaders of the new American industrialist class. People who wanted to create factory workers. Not thriving individuals. The original tenants created for our system are still in place today. Observe the bell schedule, sanctioned grade levels. All mementos of industrial revolution factory life.

[jgraham]

Free market rule #2: The people's desires will be met. If people want sound safe products, they will be provided. If they don't like murder, there will not be murder.

Now the whiner pops out of his hidey hole.  How about defending the topic at hand eh? 

If you recall.  I was asking where you provide something resembling a cogent argument for your position.  i.e. A set of premises that force your conclusion.

All I have to provide is the history of our species. We have thrived, grown and built upon foundations built in times with no monopolies on education nor through any structured education period.

In addition, the current American system of learning  were made by leaders of the new American industrialist class. People who wanted to create factory workers. Not thriving individuals.

Naive.

If your conclusion is: "Public Education has had and will continue to have a negative effect on your country."

Then clearly the premise that "people have advanced without structured education" does not force it.  (Failure #1). Likewise the premise that "current educational system was historically intended to have a particular outcome" also does not force it.  Failure #2.

That all you got?

[Anonymous]

Free market rule #2: The people's desires will be met. If people want sound safe products, they will be provided. If they don't like murder, there will not be murder.

Now the whiner pops out of his hidey hole.  How about defending the topic at hand eh? 

If you recall.  I was asking where you provide something resembling a cogent argument for your position.  i.e. A set of premises that force your conclusion.

All I have to provide is the history of our species. We have thrived, grown and built upon foundations built in times with no monopolies on education nor through any structured education period.

In addition, the current American system of learning  were made by leaders of the new American industrialist class. People who wanted to create factory workers. Not thriving individuals.

Naive.

If your conclusion is: "Public Education has had and will continue to have a negative effect on your country."

Then clearly the premise that "people have advanced without structured education" does not force it.  (Failure #1). Likewise the premise that "current educational system was historically intended to have a particular outcome" also does not force it.  Failure #2.

That all you got?

I am not here to prove anything. I am just here to share and observe. If you have little to offer in counters to my claims, I'm done.

[AyeYo]

Free market rule #2: The people's desires will be met. If people want sound safe products, they will be provided. If they don't like murder, there will not be murder.

Now the whiner pops out of his hidey hole.  How about defending the topic at hand eh?  

If you recall.  I was asking where you provide something resembling a cogent argument for your position.  i.e. A set of premises that force your conclusion.

All I have to provide is the history of our species. We have thrived, grown and built upon foundations built in times with no monopolies on education nor through any structured education period.

In addition, the current American system of learning  were made by leaders of the new American industrialist class. People who wanted to create factory workers. Not thriving individuals. The original tenants created for our system are still in place today. Observe the bell schedule, sanctioned grade levels. All mementos of industrial revolution factory life.

Ok, your argument boils down to:


Premise 1: The cave men did it such and such a way.
Premise 2: We're all still alive today.
Premise 3: Such and such a way obviously worked because we're still alive today.
Conclusion: The American education system is ruining the country.


Hmmm, that seems a little off.  How about your second argument?


Premise 1: Industrialist class recreated education system.
Premise 2: Industrialist class likes factory workers.
Premise 3: Education today is kinda-sorta the same as it was in the beginning.
Conclusion: The American education system is ruining the country.


Not sure that makes much sense either.  Maybe you should write it out yourself in "premise, premise, conclusion" style so we can all better understand what you're trying to say.