The Biggest Pyramid Scheme Ever Devised!

[MatthewLM]

The fact that it is "debt based" is what makes it a pyramid scheme.

This makes no sense. What on earth has debt got to do with pyramid schemes?

To be honest with everyone the US monetary system is so insane I don't really want to understand it all.

People are actually buying into the dollar in hopes and knowledge that others will come into it, accumulate debt as well, eventually spend that debt with others who have accumulated debt, as therefore offset the debt of the others who bought in early.

Consumer (a) decides he wants to make money, but first he must go into debt to start a business. He becomes producer (a). He borrows debt in hopes of making enough debt to offset the initial debt, and have more debt than is needed. Then that debt can be spent. Consumer (b) then comes in and spends borrowed debt with consumer (a) and enriches consumer (a), only when that debt is paid off and there is spendable debt.

You need to explain it carefully if I'm to understand what you are saying. Are you saying that when the government puts the economy in boom mode, people will borrow to make money from others borrowing money and ultimately it's a pile of mal-investment and eventually leads to bust mode?

I do understand that the federal reserve prints money and then buys treasury bonds and lends to banks. And as more money is pumped into the system, the more and more money is thrown through the cycles of credit.

Don't understand this private ownership of the federal reserve and definitely don't understand the "pyramid scheme" idea still.

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[cypherdoc]

The fact that it is "debt based" is what makes it a pyramid scheme.

This makes no sense. What on earth has debt got to do with pyramid schemes?

To be honest with everyone the US monetary system is so insane I don't really want to understand it all.

People are actually buying into the dollar in hopes and knowledge that others will come into it, accumulate debt as well, eventually spend that debt with others who have accumulated debt, as therefore offset the debt of the others who bought in early.

Consumer (a) decides he wants to make money, but first he must go into debt to start a business. He becomes producer (a). He borrows debt in hopes of making enough debt to offset the initial debt, and have more debt than is needed. Then that debt can be spent. Consumer (b) then comes in and spends borrowed debt with consumer (a) and enriches consumer (a), only when that debt is paid off and there is spendable debt.

You need to explain it carefully if I'm to understand what you are saying. Are you saying that when the government puts the economy in boom mode, people will borrow to make money from others borrowing money and ultimately it's a pile of mal-investment and eventually leads to bust mode?

I do understand that the federal reserve prints money and then buys treasury bonds and lends to banks. And as more money is pumped into the system, the more and more money is thrown through the cycles of credit.

Don't understand this private ownership of the federal reserve and definitely don't understand the "pyramid scheme" idea still.

the Fed artificially manipulates interest rates lower by buying UST's which allows the banks to borrow from the Fed at close to nothing.  currently 0-0.25%.  this encourages these bastards to hand out money like candy to anyone with a pulse like in the subprime loan fiasco.  banks only care about getting the fees and dump the actual subprime loans on investor/ pension funds all over the world.  average people see that they can borrow cheaply and start flipping homes (Ponzi) to each other driving the price ever higher until the whole ponzi bubble explodes and lotsa people get hurt.

[MatthewLM]

You can certainly call it similar to a ponzi scheme (Similar but not done in the exact same way) but not at all like a pyramid scheme.

Also, you can say interest rates are negative when you adjust them for inflation, right?

Governments right now are trying to kick start another boom period through stupidly low-interest, easy credit policies. What seems to be happening, is that it's preventing the correction from playing out correctly and causing massive inflation.

But I can't advise alternative monetary policies because the existence of monetary polices is what is causing the mess in the first place...

And people blame markets and "greed" for all the problems.

[MeSarah]

OMG!! You should just kill yourself. If you dont like fait currency then dont use them. If you use them then your a hypocrite plain and simple. People are so stupid that they will follow anything they are told. Maybe you should sacrifice a virgin.

People fail to realise that using gold or silver makes a monetaty system more manipulable. Just look at what OPEC did in the 70s and oil is far more abundant than gold or silver. If a monetary system is only backed by metals then poverty increases. Over the last 90+ years poverty has fallen. People fail to realise that a metal backed currency can not expand to meet todays global economy.

If you want to play semantics we can. Most countries hold gold and silver in their national bank. The US Federal Reserve hold billions of dollars in gold and silver that belongs to the people. Just because you cant trade your dollars for gold and silver doesnt mean that its not backed by gold and silver. Just because it belongs to the people doesnt mean you can have access the item. For example, you cant go into the mayor's office of your city and use the computer in that office just because you want to.

Most people can only see one side to this issue. They are told one thing and thats all they know. They cant think about the other side. This makes those people simple thinkers with inablity to think critically.

[MatthewLM]

With fiat the governments can change the money supply whenever it chooses basically. Precious metals supply is tied to nature and the ability for people to extract it from nature.

And you never mentioned bitcoin in your argument.

[Mr2001]

The US Treasury BORROWS from the Federal Reserve, a for profit, private corporation. Each dollar borrowed, is then a debt in anyone's hand who holds it. If it were just a fiat currency, then it would actually have value, but something that represents "debt" cannot, at the same time, have "value", unless you value debt, and the only people who value debt are the bankers and debtor institutions built up around them. Debt=Death
Mortgage=Mortuary

You know what? You're right, US dollars have no value, they're worthless. I can't believe I never realized that before but it's so obvious now that you've pulled the scales from my eyes. Thank you, sir!

As a token of my gratitude for enlightening me, I'm going to offer you a service for no charge: send me your worthless US dollars and I'll dispose of them for you. Oh, it'll be a heavy burden, but I'm willing to shoulder it for you, brother. Imagine the peace of mind you'll feel when you're free of all that debt!

[cypherdoc]

The US Treasury BORROWS from the Federal Reserve, a for profit, private corporation. Each dollar borrowed, is then a debt in anyone's hand who holds it. If it were just a fiat currency, then it would actually have value, but something that represents "debt" cannot, at the same time, have "value", unless you value debt, and the only people who value debt are the bankers and debtor institutions built up around them. Debt=Death
Mortgage=Mortuary

You know what? You're right, US dollars have no value, they're worthless. I can't believe I never realized that before now, but it's so obvious now that you've pulled the scales from my eyes. Thank you, sir!

As a token of my gratitude for enlightening me, I'm going to offer you a service for no charge: send me your worthless US dollars and I'll dispose of them for you. Imagine the peace of mind you'll feel when you're free of all that debt!

tell you what.  i'll send you my mortgage.  how's that?

[billyjoeallen]

I don't have a broader definition of pyramid scheme in mind. Maybe people do use the term in a broad sense. Why not just call the broader term "scam"?

from wikipedia:
"A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model that involves promising participants payment, services or ideals, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme or training them to take part, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public."

Yup. The U.S. Dollar's a pyramid scheme.

[evoorhees]

You can take 5 million federal reserve notes and you cannot pay off a 1$ debt, you can only discharge it dollar for dollar.

That $20 Federal Reserve Note in your pocket is not wealth or money, it is the Prima Facie EVIDENCE that you hold debt, and you are not worth $20 Dollars, you in fact, OWE that $20, because it's borrowed to begin with, it's NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY, it's THEIRS!!!!

Sorry bud. I'm as anti-fed and anti-dollar as anyone on these forums, but I think you are confused.

When I hold $20, I hold $20. So long as it has purchasing power, it's an asset, not a debt. When I have $20, I do not OWE $20... you are speaking nonsense. The fact that someone before me borrowed $20, then gave it to me, does not pass along the debt obligation to me.

A $20 Federal Reserve Note IS money... it is just crappy fiat money and we ought to rid ourselves of it.

[bitrebel]

You can take 5 million federal reserve notes and you cannot pay off a 1$ debt, you can only discharge it dollar for dollar.

That $20 Federal Reserve Note in your pocket is not wealth or money, it is the Prima Facie EVIDENCE that you hold debt, and you are not worth $20 Dollars, you in fact, OWE that $20, because it's borrowed to begin with, it's NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY, it's THEIRS!!!!

Sorry bud. I'm as anti-fed and anti-dollar as anyone on these forums, but I think you are confused.

When I hold $20, I hold $20. So long as it has purchasing power, it's an asset, not a debt. When I have $20, I do not OWE $20... you are speaking nonsense. The fact that someone before me borrowed $20, then gave it to me, does not pass along the debt obligation to me.

A $20 Federal Reserve Note IS money... it is just crappy fiat money and we ought to rid ourselves of it.

You have much to learn, son. Keep on it. You are almost there, but not quite.

You may CHOOSE to see it that way, but it's not the operation of the system. The system operates in an entirely different way than you are aware of.

This was not meant to be a lesson on money and debt. That's an entirely different thread.

Google "Promissory Note" and tell me how that promise to pay is any different than a US dollar, and then tell me how it has value other than as "debt".

In fact, If I were to write you a "Promissory Note" for 1 Million Dollars, and I sign it, it has as much value as 1 Million US Dollars. No shit!

[cypherdoc]

You can take 5 million federal reserve notes and you cannot pay off a 1$ debt, you can only discharge it dollar for dollar.

That $20 Federal Reserve Note in your pocket is not wealth or money, it is the Prima Facie EVIDENCE that you hold debt, and you are not worth $20 Dollars, you in fact, OWE that $20, because it's borrowed to begin with, it's NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY, it's THEIRS!!!!

Sorry bud. I'm as anti-fed and anti-dollar as anyone on these forums, but I think you are confused.

When I hold $20, I hold $20. So long as it has purchasing power, it's an asset, not a debt. When I have $20, I do not OWE $20... you are speaking nonsense. The fact that someone before me borrowed $20, then gave it to me, does not pass along the debt obligation to me.

A $20 Federal Reserve Note IS money... it is just crappy fiat money and we ought to rid ourselves of it.

you do realize that the mortgage the buyer of your house had to take out and then turn over to you in USD's increased the money supply by that exact amount and therefore devalued the USD's he just gave to you by that same proportion?

you may consider it an asset but its a depreciating asset.  which is precisely why ppl are getting rid of those same USD's in return for gold, silver, and bitcoins which are not backed by debt.

[evoorhees]

OMG!! You should just kill yourself. If you dont like fait currency then dont use them. If you use them then your a hypocrite plain and simple. People are so stupid that they will follow anything they are told. Maybe you should sacrifice a virgin.

Tip: don't start your post with an insult. That was mean and unnecessary. If you're going to be insulting, you should at least be correct. You're not.

People fail to realise that using gold or silver makes a monetaty system more manipulable. Just look at what OPEC did in the 70s and oil is far more abundant than gold or silver. If a monetary system is only backed by metals then poverty increases. Over the last 90+ years poverty has fallen. People fail to realise that a metal backed currency can not expand to meet todays global economy.

You are suggesting that a gold/silver monetary system is "more manipulable" than a fiat paper system? That is incorrect. To manipulate gold markets, you must own gold or control stakes in gold markets via options, etc. One can certainly manipulate gold markets but it would be immensely expensive to do so. Contrast this with manipulating fiat paper money markets... you must merely input zeros in your central bank computer system. It's free to do so. The US Gov't is perpetually manipulating the money system by printing dollars to purchase treasury debt (quantitative easing). The ECB is perpetually manipulating the Euro supply to buy the debt of failing member states. China is perpetually printing Yuan to help keep the currency devalued vs. the dollar to encourage exports. All these things happen constantly and yet you want to claim fiat paper money is harder to manipulate than gold and silver money?  Really?

If you want to play semantics we can. Most countries hold gold and silver in their national bank. The US Federal Reserve hold billions of dollars in gold and silver that belongs to the people. Just because you cant trade your dollars for gold and silver doesnt mean that its not backed by gold and silver. Just because it belongs to the people doesn't mean you can have access the item. For example, you cant go into the mayor's office of your city and use the computer in that office just because you want to.

The "billions of dollars of gold and silver" does not belong to the people, contrary to what they might tell you. It belongs to the US Gov't and/or the Federal Reserve System. The fact that you can't trade your dollars for gold and silver IS PRECISELY WHY it is correct to say they aren't backed by those metals. There is no backing of US Dollars by any commodity, period. Dollars used to be backed by gold... not anymore. Dollars are fiat... printed at whim and for the express benefit of the Federal Government and the Federal Reserve System.

Most people can only see one side to this issue. They are told one thing and thats all they know. They cant think about the other side. This makes those people simple thinkers with inablity to think critically.

On this point, you are correct.

[evoorhees]

you do realize that the mortgage the buyer of your house had to take out and then turn over to you in USD's increased the money supply by that exact amount and therefore devalued the USD's he just gave to you by that same proportion?

you may consider it an asset but its a depreciating asset.  which is precisely why ppl are getting rid of those same USD's in return for gold, silver, and bitcoins which are not backed by debt.

Yes you're correct, but I am still "better off" after the sale. I have made say $300,000 in USD, but the USD money supply has been devalued in aggregate. The loss of wealth is shared by all holders of dollars, whereas the benefit of the newly printed money is me (and the bank). So I get $300,000 and perhaps that is now worth only $299,999.98 in real terms.

And yes of course dollars are a depreciating asset. They suck, and we ought to get rid of them entirely.

[bitrebel]

You can take 5 million federal reserve notes and you cannot pay off a 1$ debt, you can only discharge it dollar for dollar.

That $20 Federal Reserve Note in your pocket is not wealth or money, it is the Prima Facie EVIDENCE that you hold debt, and you are not worth $20 Dollars, you in fact, OWE that $20, because it's borrowed to begin with, it's NOT YOUR FUCKING MONEY, it's THEIRS!!!!

In fact, If I were to write you a "Promissory Note" for 1 Million Dollars, and I sign it, it has as much value as 1 Million US Dollars. No shit!

Let's just disregard the fact that I just revealed the bankers biggest secret in the whole world, and the one thing you are not supposed to know under any circumstances. Do not stop here, do not read or look. Move along sheeple. Move along.

[cypherdoc]

you do realize that the mortgage the buyer of your house had to take out and then turn over to you in USD's increased the money supply by that exact amount and therefore devalued the USD's he just gave to you by that same proportion?

you may consider it an asset but its a depreciating asset.  which is precisely why ppl are getting rid of those same USD's in return for gold, silver, and bitcoins which are not backed by debt.

Yes you're correct, but I am still "better off" after the sale. I have made say $300,000 in USD, but the USD money supply has been devalued in aggregate. The loss of wealth is shared by all holders of dollars, whereas the benefit of the newly printed money is me (and the bank). So I get $300,000 and perhaps that is now worth only $299,999.98 in real terms.

And yes of course dollars are a depreciating asset. They suck, and we ought to get rid of them entirely.

not necessarily.  the other half of your tx is the house value.  typically the house price will go UP with inflation.  this is one of the "risk assets" that Bernanke is trying to push everyone back into along with stocks.  its like the fox herding all the chickens into the fox hen for the next slaughter which is why i hate Bernanke with a passion.  he has us all looking over our shoulders fearful of the next financial crisis just b/c he's trying to save his banker buddies.

[cypherdoc]

so you can see how "debt backed money" only benefits the banksters b/c heads they win, tails you lose.

[MeSarah]

This thread has nothing to do with bitcoins. Admin please move this thread to the economy section !!

[cypherdoc]

This thread has nothing to do with bitcoins. Admin please move this thread to the economy section !!

you're a banker, aren't you?

[evoorhees]

not necessarily.  the other half of your tx is the house value.  typically the house price will go UP with inflation.  this is one of the "risk assets" that Bernanke is trying to push everyone back into along with stocks.  its like the fox herding all the chickens into the fox hen for the next slaughter which is why i hate Bernanke with a passion.  he has us all looking over our shoulders fearful of the next financial crisis just b/c he's trying to save his banker buddies.

Yes I ignored the house part to keep things simple cause we were just looking at the dollar side.

However I do not think Bernanke is "herding everyone into housing" in order to slaughter them for his banker friends. I think he is making decisions based on flawed economic theory... he is a Keynesian, and is desperately trying to keep house prices from falling because, to him, "deflation" is the worst thing in the world. He's just a smart guy that learned all the wrong stuff, but of course those are exactly the types that end of in Washington, no? =)

[Mr2001]

tell you what.  i'll send you my mortgage.  how's that?

No deal. Maybe you ought to read bitrebel's posts again until you understand how the US dollar is worth no more than your mortgage. Worth less, in fact, because at least the mortgage is honest about being a debt. I'd be doing you a disservice by taking your mortgage instead of your dollars... and I just wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I'd done that.