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Author Topic: AI has beaten top poker professionals  (Read 501 times)
Hell-raiser
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January 25, 2018, 03:26:51 PM
 #61

Yeah , AI slowly beats people in everything . Will they conquer the world too ?
The online world, yeah. Maybe then, we'll go back to a simple life haha!

AI will undoubtedly follow you no matter where you go or what you are going to do until it gets you. Yeah, it may take some time until it reads looks and uses its own visual tricks and facial expressions (don't ask me what it would look like), but we will get there eventually, or rather, it will get there. In fact, it may require a lot of time and major break-throughs in the field but we will be there even if we have to build a copycat of entire human brain. Or more than that.
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January 25, 2018, 04:12:40 PM
 #62

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

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January 26, 2018, 10:35:39 AM
 #63

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.




For sure this is just for an online kind of poker, so poker faces and bluffing would be different if it is online. It is quite a lot easier to determine the play style of a player that is online since the AI just needs a few games before it would be able to know the play style of its opponent. What that means is that if it knows how you play then it would be able to determine what are your tendencies. The thing is, it can analysis indeed the millions of hands it has in its data base and base its decision from there. there is really no new player style so I guess it would just depend on how quick an AI will do a read and decide what kind of player it is playing against.
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January 26, 2018, 01:04:34 PM
 #64

Not a nice news.
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January 26, 2018, 02:45:49 PM
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 #65

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?
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January 26, 2018, 03:36:00 PM
 #66

AI's will rule the world someday.
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January 26, 2018, 04:17:01 PM
 #67

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human being are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I think we are still very far from that. Really, how do you imagine one computer deceiving another? If we take chess as an example, you can sacrifice a piece with the objective of gaining advantage and winning the game later. In my view, there's no deceit, this is only our interpretation of some moves.

Nevertheless, if we speak about an advanced AI, or superintelligent AI, it may ultimately develop some features or qualities that we could consider as trickery or cunning. Whether it will be able to consider them as such itself remains to be seen though.

AI's will rule the world someday.

We may not live up to that. And it may in fact turn out to be good.
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January 27, 2018, 02:37:55 AM
 #68

I've never heard of any of these professionals, I want to see it beat Phil Ivey and Tom Dwan.
There was that professional poker player that became famous with his betting bitcoins I believe.
He is on youtube and twitter all the time.
He is the one with a beard and has alot of near naked women all over him in these videos so he must be still winning. Wink

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January 27, 2018, 04:00:22 AM
 #69

AI's will rule the world someday.

Like the Matrix movie? I am not discounting the fact that there is a possibility of this happening but with our current AI and robotics technology today this will be in the very far future.

For the OP, I am not surprised that AI was able to beat this Pro poker players as most poker players usually read body movements and of course AI will not show that. AI will always be logical and compute the probability of them winning the hand.

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January 27, 2018, 06:34:07 AM
 #70

AI's will rule the world someday.

Like the Matrix movie? I am not discounting the fact that there is a possibility of this happening but with our current AI and robotics technology today this will be in the very far future.

For the OP, I am not surprised that AI was able to beat this Pro poker players as most poker players usually read body movements and of course AI will not show that. AI will always be logical and compute the probability of them winning the hand.

Frankly, I'm not very familiar with poker and especially with its "show-off" part, but what about online poker then? As far as I know, there is no way you can reveal your movements and facial expressions to your opponent unless you are playing via skype and making faces at them. So in online poker there is a level playing field for both AI and human players. What prevents human beings to be as logical as the machine playing against them?
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January 27, 2018, 06:47:26 AM
 #71

I have recently read a news when two AI robots started talking on their own, then the company (Facebook) had to shut it down. This is kind of alarming.
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January 28, 2018, 12:00:22 PM
 #72

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

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January 28, 2018, 02:31:08 PM
 #73

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

I don't have a lot of experience and profound knowledge into the operation of AI systems but they definitely don't work the way you describe. AI is not a robot, it doesn't have a specific algo or program that was coded into it. AI works pretty much like human brain does, and it should be taught first before it can do anything intelligible. But I understand what you mean and this is exactly what I'm asking. Could it have some moral value or judgment after it invents a trick or deceit? Or will it be yet another sequence of moves leading to a state which we humans proudly call victory?
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January 28, 2018, 03:52:19 PM
 #74

I don't want to play against someone who doesn't care about paying his bills while playing poker. AI seems to be that kind of emotionless opponent. It is so hard to bluff AI. Ya, you can win one or two hands but in the long run, you will run out of diverse patterns while AI will be learning and improving with your every move. Not only that AI will have the access to millions of hands played by other people in that very specific scenario which is enough to beat f normal players like me.
But again there are chess engines who can beat even top-class grandmasters but still in the real world you have to play against only live human being.
So, yes in the world of online poker it is very hard to determine if you are playing against AI or real player but I don't think in live poker matches it will be a big deal.

I looked through the whole thread and everyone seems to be whining about AI defeating mankind in the next field of human activity, poker this time. But what about one AI playing against another? As I got it from the thread, poker is different from chess because the latter is called a perfect-information game while the former not so perfect. My idea is that it should be a lot more fun to watch one machine playing against another, especially if all tricks, deceits and bluff that human beings are so proud of are implemented and allowed!

So could one machine actually deceive another?

I do not think that they is playing that way, by decieving any player, I do not think they even have the abilities to do that. You know that AI is a robot, which is the designer can always put every information on each AI to have more information about each pro players here. So as long as they can make an AI to have big memory so they will keep every data on it and can beat everyone in just a second, because they memorize every pattern that you have. May be different pattern will do but the chance of winning is still too small

I don't have a lot of experience and profound knowledge into the operation of AI systems but they definitely don't work the way you describe. AI is not a robot, it doesn't have a specific algo or program that was coded into it. AI works pretty much like human brain does, and it should be taught first before it can do anything intelligible. But I understand what you mean and this is exactly what I'm asking. Could it have some moral value or judgment after it invents a trick or deceit? Or will it be yet another sequence of moves leading to a state which we humans proudly call victory?
The way i see it, every ai will be trained with different sets of data or learn for different purposes, so it probably won't have any moral values if it's trained/learn to be perfect at certain job, it will try it's best to be good at it.
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January 28, 2018, 09:27:03 PM
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 #75

Sorry am not quoting everyone, already a pretty long quote string! But I was drawn to the last few discussions on AI designed for deception - I wonder if there would be any conflict with some of the Ethically-Aligned Design (EAD) treaties already drawn up by organisations like IEEE. I know there are already steps towards advocating compliance within medical fields for example, though of course none of this has resulted in regulations.

Could AI be designed to still be ethical while being good in a game like poker (or even chess?). If one threw the ethics rulebook out, could not one deploy a similar AI to online poker rooms and just defeat reliably all human opponents?

@kryptorian: AI does work a little like you mention, in that it is like a human brain. It can only learn what it is taught, but there are becoming more and more capable of self-learning (or self teaching). But no, AI cannot yet determine moral or value judgment without predefined codes of conduct, at least not in practice - but EAD AI tries to create such that form values based on learning rather than a set universal code. The challenge is to get them to process context.

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January 28, 2018, 10:23:21 PM
 #76

Yeah... No...
I mean don't worry, the AI can only beat players in head to head games with limited poker.
At least last time I heard about their progress they managed to finalize the poker in those circumtances. To finish a game or to solve it is to manage to have all the possibilities of the game and to always chose the best option. Some games are easy to solve (like small games) but games like chesses are impossible to solve because of the far too many possibilities.

So happily enough the game isn't solved here. It's not because the AI managed to fight one pro poker player that it means it's better than them.
Remember that poker is a chance based game. Even without any AI if the only move you make is to go all-in to each hand, you might have something like 25% chance to win even against a pro player...

Until we have more information for me the AI isn't a problem for the poker world Wink

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January 29, 2018, 09:44:10 AM
 #77

Could AI be designed to still be ethical while being good in a game like poker (or even chess?). If one threw the ethics rulebook out, could not one deploy a similar AI to online poker rooms and just defeat reliably all human opponents?

@kryptorian: AI does work a little like you mention, in that it is like a human brain. It can only learn what it is taught, but there are becoming more and more capable of self-learning (or self teaching). But no, AI cannot yet determine moral or value judgment without predefined codes of conduct, at least not in practice - but EAD AI tries to create such that form values based on learning rather than a set universal code. The challenge is to get them to process context.

Huh, when I said about teaching I meant that AI needs some data source, and if we want to teach it something useful, we need to be particular about what we teach it. Otherwise, it can be taught whatever is being fed to it, so of course it is capable of self-learning as long as there is a source to learn from. Neural networks are intentionally built this way. I also don't think that AI can be made ethical unless we impose some strict rules on it like instinct of self-preservation. It may make AI unethical or even anti-ethical (a perfect killing machine) but it is not the same as being completely non-ethical, void of the very idea of ethics.
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January 29, 2018, 09:47:02 AM
 #78

the way to beat AI is do the opposite on how you bet

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January 29, 2018, 11:49:09 AM
 #79

So happily enough the game isn't solved here. It's not because the AI managed to fight one pro poker player that it means it's better than them.
Remember that poker is a chance based game. Even without any AI if the only move you make is to go all-in to each hand, you might have something like 25% chance to win even against a pro player...

Until we have more information for me the AI isn't a problem for the poker world Wink

It looks more like you don't quite believe in what you say yourself here. Rather, you are clutching at the idea that the game, poker in this case, is basically a chance based game, and AI can't overcome that. You are right, of course, if that comforts you, but as the real tournament has shown, there is not enough chance in poker to keep AI constrained and in the long term it still invariably crashes all human competition. Note that chances may equally work in its favor, while unlike humans it won't miss them.
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January 29, 2018, 03:14:55 PM
 #80

the way to beat AI is do the opposite on how you bet

How are going to do this? Can give more explanation here? Because what I know, AI is only things that people made so if the programmer do not input really hard thing into AI, then there is nothing to be scared of. The only matter if pro programmer which can input many things for that bot and let him learn everything that pro players have, from their gesture and everything then it can't be beaten and poker games will be ended in really bad way
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