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Author Topic: Preaching to the choir because the choir doesn't get it.  (Read 1715 times)
HenryRomp (OP)
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July 24, 2013, 01:32:54 AM
 #1

I was having a little exchange with J603 on another thread, and realized it was getting a bit off topic so I'm posting this instead of replying there.

I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, since the price soaring and the media coverage is bound to attract investors who's eyes fill with dollar signs, but I am still surprised by how many of those who discuss bitcoin on this forum seem to completely miss the point, or vastly underestimate the importance of this technological development.

I'm here to make BTC not $.

Here's the reply I was going to post in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=258888.0:


Quote
I think one day everybody will have a cell phone. http://qz.com/57504/31-of-kenyas-gdp-is-spent-through-mobile-phones/ This article isn't the best on the subject but it has some nice statistics.

Well I think that there will never be a day when everyone has a phone. If everyone could afford a phone, then everyone can afford food and a house. And if everyone is living in some utopia where there's no starvation or homelessness then why would we need a currency in the first place? Like I said, 70% of the world does not have Internet access. Kenya has only 28.08 million cell phones (CIA World Factbook) in a country of 44 million. That's only 63% of the population if each person has only one phone which is rare in Africa where phone services drop all the time.
http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/09/feature-phones-are-not-the-future/
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/03/25/more-people-have-cell-phones-than-toilets-u-n-study-shows/

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Investing money in bitcoins?  Roll Eyes Bitcoins are money. Fiat is monopoly money. It will inflate naturally as more and more of it is printed off, and it will inflate with alarming rapidity as more and more people realize that they've been fooled. Even gold will lose it's value as people storing their value in gold will have so few advantages and so many disadvantages compared to people storing their value in bitcoin. It will naturally become the universal measure of value and we will someday look back upon the days of fiat with incredulity. Gold will naturally hold some of it's value but it has been replaced already, as it is no longer the overall best store of value on the market.

What did you purchase your first bitcoins with? More bitcoins?
Many people acquire their first bitcoins through sale of goods or services. It's as simple as announcing that you accept bitcoin as payment.
But that's irrelevant--obviously we are currently in a system of fiat money and the only way out is to exchange your fiat for bitcoin and wait for the rest of the world to join you. They will.

Currently, bitcoins are not viable money. There isn't much you can buy with them. I can't buy gas or groceries with them, and those are necessary purchases. You can't argue with that. The biggest bitcoin market seems to be the silk road, which is far from and will never be mainstream.
Well, that depends where you're located. Here in NYC there are many stores that accept bitcoin over the counter, and I can buy food from hundreds of restaurants using foodler, and I can use a temporary workaround by buying prepaid visa gift cards which can be used for gasoline and groceries, which while it's definitely not buying gasoline with bitcoins, does allow me to store all my savings as bitcoins and then use them to buy whatever I want, a fine temporary measure until bitcoins gain wider acceptance. So it's really not important that they're not widely accepted yet. They will be, and in the meantime they are still the best store of value available.

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I look at it this way--Fiat currency is so fundamentally flawed that holding your wealth in any fiat currency is a dangerous and risky "investment." Bitcoin is so fundamentally suited to being used as currency that it will undoubtedly become the universal standard for exchange. Therefore, switching from holding your wealth in fiat to holding your wealth in bitcoin is a near sure bet.


Explain to me why bitcoin is foolproof- you haven't so far. Explain why fiat money can collapse but bitcoins cannot. Bitcoins can be destroyed, much like fiat, however they are never reprinted. And like I said before, I don't have a choice but to invest in fiat. I don't want to starve.
In a nutshell, bitcoin is decentralized and deflationary. That's why. No fiat money has existed that was truly deflationary like bitcoin is.
Fiat can and will collapse because it is an inflationary model which ultimately leads to the currency being worthless and being abandoned, and now that bitcoin exists as an alternative, it will be apparent that it is the best alternative as one fiat currency after another falls.

People will swap one fiat money for another more and more frantically as one by one they crumble and fall, and gradually more and more people will notice the honey badger of money just not giving a shit as it marches onward and upward.
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Well, no fiat currency has ever been successful in history, I see no reason to expect the USD, Euro, Pound, or Yuan to do any better. In fact I think it's a near certainty that all of the above will reach a value of 0 in our lifetimes. Read http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2011/08/average-life-expectancy-for-fiat.html and http://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/ and maybe try the wikipedia entry for "fiat currency" and the dictionary entry for "fiat." 
While bitcoin could plummet and never recover, I think it's far more probable that it will not, and I have a hard time coming up with any scenario in which bitcoin would reach a value of 0. Anything is possible, of course, and if the internet were entirely eliminated, bitcoin would likely eventually reach a value of 0.

No fiat has been successful? The Euro is the most valuable currency in the world (not per note, but overall) and it was introduced in 1996. Bitcoins have existed for only 4 years, but they have not surpassed a single fiat currency in value. If the euro fails (which I don't think it will as it is more popular than any other currency that has ever existed), it will be replaced by another fiat. If bitcoins fail, they will be done.
You're looking at the last four years. Look at the history of fiat currency in it's entirety and you should see some patterns that make it seem unlikely that the euro will last very long.

No fiat has been successful. Ever. Did you even read the links in the portion you were addressing here? The Euro is well into what will be a short life. Fiat currency just doesn't work.

It also distributes all the wealth in a very biased manner, and allows governments to finance wars that simply wouldn't be within reach without just printing money off the press. But that's why it's evil, not why it doesn't work.

It doesn't work because it's an inflationary model.
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So basically, I disagree with all of your statements.  Cheesy I think you are invested for all the wrong reasons, looking at it like a stock to buy and sell, and fail to see the enormous globe-changing potential ramifications of this elegant idea we call bitcoin.

What "globe-changing" ramifications are there? And why are fiat currencies destined to fail, when they have existed for thousands of years versus bitcoin's four?

No single fiat currency has existed for thousands of years. All of them fail within a fairly short timeframe, and are replaced, usually by new fiat currencies, because there was (up until now) no other option. Now we have a viable option to replace them that solves the problem of inflation.
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Because of the law of supply and demand, when fewer bitcoins are available the ones that are left will be in higher demand, and therefore will have a higher value. So, as Bitcoins are lost, the remaining bitcoins will eventually increase in value to compensate. As the value of a bitcoin increases, the number of bitcoins required to purchase an item decreases. This is a deflationary economic model. As the average transaction size reduces, transactions will probably be denominated in sub-units of a bitcoin such as millibitcoins ("Millies") or microbitcoins ("Mikes").

The Bitcoin protocol uses a base unit of one hundred-millionth of a Bitcoin ("a Satoshi"), but unused bits are available in the protocol fields that could be used to denote even smaller subdivisions.

You tell me not to treat it like a stock, yet you do the same. "when fewer bitcoins are available.. therefore higher value". This implies that not everyone has one- that fiat is not dead (unless the people without bitcoins have no form of currency) and that people are still purchasing bitcoins with fiat, as if they were stock. What value would bitcoins have at this point? 1 BTC may be worth 1 billion dollars some day, but then it's worth 1 billion dollars. Without anything to buy with that bitcoin, it's only value comes from its exchange rate with fiat.
Wrong. "When fewer bitcoins are available.. therefore higher value" does not imply that not everyone has one. Everybody can have bitcoins and there can still be fewer or more available in total, because they are divisible to such tiny fractions. Even if there were only one single bitcoin left and all the others had somehow been lost, one bitcoin could divide into enough pieces for the entire global economy to function using that ONE COIN as it's currency.

One bitcoin may be worth 1 billion dollars worth of goods one day and be accepted by everybody as the standard currency.

But I digress. Convincing people like you is boring. You're set in your view and you likely won't be convinced, even when the evidence is right in front of your face. The dollar is a temporary illusion, a giant ponzi scheme robbing the lower classes of their wealth and allowing the groups in charge of printing money and adding it to the money supply to skew the whole economic system and devalue everybody's savings while redistributing that value as they see fit. Bitcoin is real money, with real rules, that apply fairly and evenly to all users.

As they say, you cannot teach a man anything, you can only inspire him to learn ("They" in this case being the people who write the fortune cookies for my favorite chinese food place). So unfortunately I will not be able to teach you the value of bitcoin, you will have to learn for yourself.

Those who will profit the most will be those who saw bitcoin for what it truly is way back when each coin was worth only pennies. They recognized bitcoin's potential and invested accordingly and will not ever cash out. When all the world conducts all of it's exchange using bitcoin, they will be the worlds superpowers.

Those of you who only saw the value of bitcoin after seeing people make huge returns on their investments haven't really seen the value of bitcoin. You have dollar signs dancing in your eyes, I have BTC dancing in mine, and when you "cash out" back to worthless fiat you will be throwing away the most valuable thing you've ever had.

The worst part is, you'll probably "cash out" at the worst possible time--when bitcoin seems to be at deaths door and hits record lows, you and countless others will be convinced that "bitcoin failed" and when you should be trading all your fiat for coin, you will buy worthless empty promises from deceitful governments printed on fancy paper that are destined to lose all their value.

BTCBTCBTC not $$$!!!!

-Henry Romp

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HenryRomp (OP)
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July 26, 2013, 01:10:04 AM
 #2

Bump and inquiry:

Does nobody care?

Does everybody agree?

Does everybody disagree?

Is it all so obvious that it doesn't warrant a reply?

Or is it just so long and boring-looking that nobody read it?

I was hoping that at least J603 would have some response, and that others might find flaws in my reasoning or help me clarify my points.

A properly secured wallet with bitcoin is in my opinion the safest, most secure, best all-around bet for holding wealth at this moment in history. Go ahead, call me crazy. They've been calling me crazy since 2013.
https://churchofbitcoin.org/
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July 26, 2013, 01:12:00 AM
 #3

Bump and inquiry:

Does nobody care?

Does everybody agree?

Does everybody disagree?

Is it all so obvious that it doesn't warrant a reply?

Or is it just so long and boring-looking that nobody read it?


I was hoping that at least J603 would have some response, and that others might find flaws in my reasoning or help me clarify my points.
I'll go with the bolded, and the fact that most of us agree with you, so there's nothing much else to say.
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July 26, 2013, 01:14:29 AM
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I'll go with the bolded, and the fact that most of us agree with you, so there's nothing much else to say.

'nuff said.
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July 26, 2013, 01:34:29 AM
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I have a problem with your statement about how "many" stores around your are accept bitcoin. What percent of stores in your area accept bitcoin? Say anything over 0.01% (as in one for every 10000) and I'll call you a liar. I can honestly say that where I live, not even 0.01% percent of people I meet know about bitcoin. Bitcoin is not viable. It -does not- matter how hard you attempt justify it. It's not. Maybe one day, but not now, and not anytime soon. The only people that use bitcoin currently are future investors, people experimenting, and pioneers that have no idea where they're heading just as the story of Columbus goes...

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July 26, 2013, 03:29:10 PM
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I'm happy to be considered a pioneer in this.

Those of us with the vision and technical knowledge to see how revolutionary and brilliant this is are confident in the future success of Bitcoin, or at the very least one of it's descendants. Those of us with the understanding of how the system works, why it desperately needs change, and how Bitcoin is the launchpad for that change will strive toward that future success for as long as humanly possible.

@HenryRomp - It was a great post; I just didn't want to pick anything in particular out of it, and was waiting for others to respond first.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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July 26, 2013, 09:21:57 PM
 #7

I have a problem with your statement about how "many" stores around your are accept bitcoin. What percent of stores in your area accept bitcoin? Say anything over 0.01% (as in one for every 10000) and I'll call you a liar. I can honestly say that where I live, not even 0.01% percent of people I meet know about bitcoin. Bitcoin is not viable. It -does not- matter how hard you attempt justify it. It's not. Maybe one day, but not now, and not anytime soon. The only people that use bitcoin currently are future investors, people experimenting, and pioneers that have no idea where they're heading just as the story of Columbus goes...

Have you met 10000 in the last several years? And 0-1 of them knew about Bitcoin?

I meet very few people and at bare minimum 10% of them know about bitcoin. The very last person that I met randomly (a friend of an acquaintance who himself did not know about bitcoin) knew a little bit.

Seals has thousands of poker players, some of them are "future investors, people experimenting, and pioneers" but many are just using it because it works great.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
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July 27, 2013, 12:11:00 AM
 #8

Is it all so obvious that it doesn't warrant a reply?

By experience, I've learned that the longer the original post in a thread is, the fewer replies there will be. I guess people don't want to read that much text.

But I'm cheering bitcoin on as well.  Smiley
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July 27, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
 #9

Ok. My response may come off as antagonistic or inflammatory, but I don't intend it that way, I'm just posing counterpoints and trying to broach a level headed conversation.  A lot of times I think we (bitcoiners) get a little bit lost in our own reality.  I have seen this before with copperbugs, silverbugs, and goldbugs when it comes to financial collapse, everyone seems to think they have the answer, and frankly it all comes off sounding a wee-bit fucking nuts.  Tinfoil hat material.  Conspiracy theory nutters.

That said...

 I am investing comfortably in Bitcoin, and I do see a future in it, but I have to say that there are points that I see reiterated over and over that are simply too far fetched for me to really believe.  I invite you or anyone to enlighten me.



1. The global financial system is going to fail very soon
I see this argument over and over again, and I just don't think that it's that simple.  What exactly leads you to believe that within our lifetimes this will be a reality?  Do you think that the people in power will not do everything they can possibly do to not retain that power?  I just don't know if it's realistic to think that it will just suddenly all come crashing down. 

2. Bitcoin is deflationary, therefore it has increased value
If I'm not mistaken, the deflationary aspect of Bitcoin won't even kick in until all of us are dead and gone.  This gives me very little reason to have faith that within my lifetime, Bitcoins will suddenly be this huge store of wealth.  Though I suppose block-halving does this in it's own way?

3. Fiat is monopoly money, and just doesn't work
Why does it not work?  It bought me the computer that I'm typing on, and pays my internet and power bills that make this conversation possible.  It really doesn't matter that it is monopoly money - it buys me food, shelter, and entertainment.

4.  We will be the new wealthy elitez0rs!11
It's just not gonna happen.  There are too many of us with hundreds, or thousands of bitcoins.  We are not going to suddenly wake up one day and be royalty because we bought in when they were $10-$100.  Maybe our children or our children's children will, but not this lifetime.
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July 29, 2013, 05:55:37 AM
 #10

Hmmm.


1. The global financial system is going to fail very soon
I see this argument over and over again, and I just don't think that it's that simple.  What exactly leads you to believe that within our lifetimes this will be a reality?  Do you think that the people in power will not do everything they can possibly do to not retain that power?  I just don't know if it's realistic to think that it will just suddenly all come crashing down. 

Well, let's be honest here... a lot of this depends on how one defines "fail."

I'm one of those who feel the system will fail--as in, no longer be in use and be replaced with another system or no system--and soon (but not necessarily "very soon.") I think this because the global financial system as it stands is simply unsustainable. It doesn't matter what those with power want; if what they want is things to continue going on as they are until the end of time, they can't have it. Frankly, I seriously doubt things will continue on as they are for another 50 years. That's just how far gone the system is, based on all reasonable indicators, and we all know that things that cannot continue, inevitably end.

Now, maybe those in power will be able to successfully transition to another system without any disturbance in the lives of everyone on the globe, and while simultaneously retaining their power. I just find that highly unlikely, given human nature.


Quote
2. Bitcoin is deflationary, therefore it has increased value
If I'm not mistaken, the deflationary aspect of Bitcoin won't even kick in until all of us are dead and gone.  This gives me very little reason to have faith that within my lifetime, Bitcoins will suddenly be this huge store of wealth.  Though I suppose block-halving does this in it's own way?

I don't think Bitcoin is deflationary, and if it were I wouldn't think that was necessarily good. Rather, Bitcoin is *not inflationary,* and there's a world of difference in those two descriptions. Your bitcoins aren't designed to eventually evaporate away; there's simply a set number of them, released in a predictable and fair fashion, and no one can ever inflate the currency into worthlessness. THAT is the trait that I find compelling, the lack of ability for some group to steal my wealth through barely-noticed socioeconomic voodoo designed to enrich a privileged few.

Whether or not it becomes this huge store of wealth isn't as important as that. Mind you, I do think Bitcoins are incredibly undervalued at <$100, just based on future utility alone. But I don't base that on expected deflation at all.


Quote
3. Fiat is monopoly money, and just doesn't work
Why does it not work?  It bought me the computer that I'm typing on, and pays my internet and power bills that make this conversation possible.  It really doesn't matter that it is monopoly money - it buys me food, shelter, and entertainment.

I don't know why someone would say it "doesn't work." I mean, I also buy my food and pay my bills with it on a regular basis.

I'd rather just argue that it works until it doesn't; that it's unsustainable... and that history shows this to be true for all fiat monies. All fiat money either becomes worthless, or transitions to another form of money that is really nothing like the first, only the name was kept (an example of this is the dollar after Nixon closed the gold window. You no longer had gold receipts. You had green scraps of paper that only had value due to their necessity in tax-paying and oil-buying.) And if it transitioned to another fiat money, then it's only a matter of time before THAT one has to likewise end.

Why accept the notion that we must continue using unsustainable forms of money that eventually result in the loss transfer of value for from the users?


Quote
4.  We will be the new wealthy elitez0rs!11
It's just not gonna happen.  There are too many of us with hundreds, or thousands of bitcoins.  We are not going to suddenly wake up one day and be royalty because we bought in when they were $10-$100.  Maybe our children or our children's children will, but not this lifetime.

Well, I personally think this is a possibility. A modestly-sized one, but a possibility nonetheless. It won't be sudden if it happens, and it's possible that quite a few things will keep it from happening altogether. But the number of people with lots of bitcoins won't be what stops it; in fact, considering an extreme increase in bitcoin price won't be all that sudden, as it happens, bitcoins will become more and more distributed. After all, how many sold at $250+? How many will sell at $1000, even if it's just enough to buy a few luxuries that they've been eyeing? The higher it goes, the more most holders will sell, and the fewer there will be with thousands of bitcoins.

I think if it's going to happen at all, it'll be within our lifetimes; either bitcoins will grow in value beyond what most imagine, or it'll be stopped by forces beyond our control. It's something of a gamble, for sure.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
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ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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July 29, 2013, 05:51:21 PM
 #11

Bitcoin is not deflationary. It's just inflationary at a much slower rate than fiat, and will eventually go stable. Also, the rate is constant and predictable.

Luckily, that's enough.

Cryptocurrency is the future. Nakamoto's concept is too strong to be stopped, even if all the biggest gov'ts in the world tried to gang up against it.
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July 29, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
 #12

Bitcoin is not deflationary. It's just inflationary at a much slower rate than fiat, and will eventually go stable. Also, the rate is constant and predictable.

Luckily, that's enough.

Cryptocurrency is the future. Nakamoto's concept is too strong to be stopped, even if all the biggest gov'ts in the world tried to gang up against it.

inflation is when the supply grows faster than the demand.

As the supply slows down, if demand increases from adoption then yes, bitcoin will be deflationary.

QuarkCoin - what I believe bitcoin was intended to be. On reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/QuarkCoin/
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July 30, 2013, 03:38:30 AM
 #13

Bitcoin is not deflationary. It's just inflationary at a much slower rate than fiat, and will eventually go stable. Also, the rate is constant and predictable.

Luckily, that's enough.

Cryptocurrency is the future. Nakamoto's concept is too strong to be stopped, even if all the biggest gov'ts in the world tried to gang up against it.

Well, staying realistic, if the worlds governments really wanted to band together to shut down bitcoin as we know it, they could do it. Now, it may cost them hundreds of millions of dollars, but I do think it's possible at this point.
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September 11, 2017, 12:44:12 AM
 #14

Hey ladies and gentlemen,

Here we are, four years later! And I link to this post nearly every day.  Grin Grin Grin

Any of you folks that commented on it back in 2013 now sitting on big stacks of bitcoin?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

A properly secured wallet with bitcoin is in my opinion the safest, most secure, best all-around bet for holding wealth at this moment in history. Go ahead, call me crazy. They've been calling me crazy since 2013.
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September 11, 2017, 04:17:44 AM
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I thought this saying was because choir boys/girls were considered to be very righteous? Therefore you don't need to preach to them, because they understand already.
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September 11, 2017, 05:19:52 AM
 #16

I thought this saying was because choir boys/girls were considered to be very righteous? Therefore you don't need to preach to them, because they understand already.

Uh yeah it's a bit of a play on that... the idea here is, if you're in the bitcointalk.org forum, you ought to be "the choir" in the sense that you ought to get the idea of bitcoin. Yet most here seem oblivious. So, preaching to the choir, because they just don't get it.

A properly secured wallet with bitcoin is in my opinion the safest, most secure, best all-around bet for holding wealth at this moment in history. Go ahead, call me crazy. They've been calling me crazy since 2013.
https://churchofbitcoin.org/
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September 11, 2017, 06:45:52 AM
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I thought this saying was because choir boys/girls were considered to be very righteous? Therefore you don't need to preach to them, because they understand already.

Uh yeah it's a bit of a play on that... the idea here is, if you're in the bitcointalk.org forum, you ought to be "the choir" in the sense that you ought to get the idea of bitcoin. Yet most here seem oblivious. So, preaching to the choir, because they just don't get it.

They get it, but they have several reasons to go back to fiat currencies. Not everyone using Bitcoin live in a 1st world country, where you have access to loads of merchants that accepts Bitcoin or even Bitcoin ATM's to buy bitcoins. If you have to go through 3rd parties to buy or trade bitcoins, you already lost the first battle. < anonymity is destroyed and you pay extra high fees to use it >

We still have some major challenges to overcome, before we can say that fiat is obsolete. ^hmmmmm^

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..PLAY NOW..
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