PROOF: BFL used ALL pre-order moneys for development of their Bitcoin Miners!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

http://web.archive.org/web/20110923170442/http://butterflylabs.com/pre-order-form/

Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you may order post production units at the standard price of $599 when they become available.

Although cleverly penned by Sonny K. (a.k.a. Sonny Chris Vleisides), I'm pretty sure the above negates what Josh and all other BF Labs Inc. representatives have stated on record that no, none, zero, nada, nil, empty set, etc., pre-order moneys were used for the development of any products produced by Butterfly Labs. Remember the statement that if all those who ordered requested a refund, all moneys could easily be returned because it safely resides in a US bank in the form of fiat currency? (paraphrased)

I'm not a lawyer, even though I've watched Matlock, but isn't that against the law whether stated or not such is taking place? Also, doesn't that constitute an investor more so than just a simple customer?

Simple question time: Since BFL's original address is still being used on BitPay's site, how and by whom is the mail being collected when delivered to 25 E. 12th Street, Kansas City, MO (zip goes here)?

Bonus simple question: Why was that address used? (apologies for using only 5 words in that simple question)

[Bicknellski]

LE OUCH.... LE Ooops!

[Rawted]

Simple question time: Since BFL's original address is still being used on BitPay's site, how and by whom is the mail being collected when delivered to 25 E. 12th Street, Kansas City, MO (zip goes here)?

Bonus simple question: Why was that address used? (apologies for using only 5 words in that simple question)

Definitely not trying to defend this company, as far as i'm concerned they are easily the most inept i've seen, however that address is personal lofts. Maybe it was just someone's apartment?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Simple question time: Since BFL's original address is still being used on BitPay's site, how and by whom is the mail being collected when delivered to 25 E. 12th Street, Kansas City, MO (zip goes here)?

Bonus simple question: Why was that address used? (apologies for using only 5 words in that simple question)

Definitely not trying to defend this company, as far as i'm concerned they are easily the most inept i've seen, however that address is personal lofts. Maybe it was just someone's apartment?

Section 8 housing, hence that was ruled out. Sonny lives on Walnut St. with at his mother's address. Nasser was in France. The other 20 employees had yet to come unto the scene, including Sonny K.

A deceased lawyer close to Sonny's brother once occupied that address, though. Maybe Gabe is collecting his mail.

[tinus42]

I'm not a lawyer, even though I've watched Matlock

 

I learned everything I know about the US Justice system by watching Matlock, Perry Mason, LA Law and Legally Blonde. And the OJ Simpson trial.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I am really hoping this is real.  Grammar and spelling aside the jist of the post rings true for me.  The way all ASIC vendors so far have forced the community to shoulder ALL the risk basically is unbelievable for a newb like me!  Add to that the absolute trainwrek PR and customer service shown by the current players and I feel like this isn't the real world anymore but some wild west cowboy shoot out!
 

Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something.  Did they use a gun or a knife or something?  Was your family being held hostage until you ordered?  If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed.  You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case!

BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order?

You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

If you don't want people to take your inflammatory, false/misleading statements at face value, then say what you mean.  You have never been forced to order from any ASIC vendor.  You have always had the option to wait until the products were available for purchase and shipped to you.  Your entire premise is flawed, in so far as the fact that if you pre-ordered, you chose to do so of your own free will.  If the risk that you would be bearing is too much, then do not pre-order. There is absolutely zero requirement for you to do so, thus your statements are false.  You may not like it, true, but you are free not to participate.  Those that are willing to shoulder the risk and those that don't mind the situation will take your place... but there is nothing forcing you to participate at any level.

Yes, of course, attacking you... pointing out that your entire statement is false in a semi-humorous way is attacking you.  You're the only troll here, sir.

Josh's statement above in 20pt bold red font is in reference to what I posted in the OP:

Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you may order post production units at the standard price of $599 when they become available.

Thus, Josh lied below:

I wonder if there will still be people saying that Butterflylabs is not a Scam after they fail to ship by 2027.
I guess a year and a few months is not long enough for most folks.

I wonder why there are still idiots saying that BFL is a scam now that they've started shipping.

I wonder why people are to0 lazy to read the posts explaining why they're scammers.

BFL said every month since OCT 2012 that they were on the verge of delivering only to get pre-orders in. The ones that ask for a refund get their money back. Sounds innocent enough right?

Well that funds RnD and that is tax free loans at 0% interest.

Perpetual pre-order/refund setup while knowing that the products were never going to be delivered until a year+ later and still waiting.

Raise prices to scare people from cancelling and after they deliver only a few jalas to get more pre-orders.

Too bad you can't figure this shit out. Idiot

Just because you repeat the same lies over and over MooC Tals doesn't mean people are going to start believing your lies.  But by all means, continue to spam every thread with your fantasies.

Note, Josh is referencing the entire post he quoted as a lie, including the one I highlighted in yellow.

Further proof that BF Labs Inc. lied about not using any pre-order moneys for the development of their company.

Feel free to poke holes in the above, Josh!

[MPOE-PR]

Pretty funny shit.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Pretty funny shit.

It sure would be funny if it weren't for the fact...

The statement was that we did not refund preorders.  We did.  We are no longer taking pre-orders and we are not refunding orders that are currently in the queue, that's correct.

It was stated multiple times that all sales are final when you ordered.  What part of that were you unable to understand?  We can't be responsible for your lack of reading comprehension or ability to understand simple English sentences.  Sorry for your reading disability, perhaps next time you should get someone to explain what terms and conditions mean to you before placing and order.  Now put on your big boy pants and accept responsibility for your actions instead of whining to me why you are unable to function in normal society and you should be a special case.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139375.msg1428421#msg1428421

[Archive] BFL trolling museum

December 31, 2012, 07:34:42 PM                                                                      #1487

I find it interesting that the BFL clown crew is starting to contradict its collective self in an attempt find something, anything to complain about.

Can one of you super intelligent folk explain to me how the BFL forums can be censored and all posts critical of BFL are being deleted while at the same time being full of people complaining and asking for refunds?  It would seem to me that those two states of being are mutually exclusive, but somehow, through the magic of the CreativeX/Frizz/PuertoLibre stupidity filter, those states can exist simultaneously on the BFL forums.

I guess no one seems to wonder how a company can issue refunds of thousands of dollars of pre-order merchandise and Paypal never balks at it?

See, Yajaira D Guevara, this is why you're so pathetic.  You make statements like this.  Who says we issue refunds of thousands of dollars?  Your warped little mind?  We get very little refund requests in the grand scheme of things.  I know you desperately want it to be true that people are asking for refunds in droves, but it's simply not the case.  This is why I know a large majority of the whiny brats that cry about BFL still maintain their pre-orders.  Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you had a stealth order yourself, just like Frizz, but until there's evidence of that, I'll give you props for being one of the few trolls who actually doesn't have a pre-order.

You just go on advocating fraud there, Yajaira.  You are a real stand up guy!  Not only a liar, but a thief and fraudster as well, GG!

Special note in re. the above: Note, Josh is speaking in the capacity of BFL representing facts, albeit as he see it, and not as his personal opinion.

The following negates what I penned in the OP about moneys used for the development of BF Labs Inc.'s product line.

Your statement that "You guys presold the units and yet are holding on to this" is utter garbage.  Do you have proof, or hell, even any EVIDENCE of this?  No?  Why not?  Because it's idiotic, that's why.  This whole question has been answered, ad naseum, on the forum.  You failed to do you due diligence and now you're flailing around trying to justify your stupid questions.

That's right, you have no power to compel BFL to open their books.  A court of law and government agency will laugh in your face when you try to get them to compel BFL to open the books.  Here's the way that conversation will go:

Charles: There's this company, Butterfly Labs, that has taken preorders for a product and hasn't shipped mine yet.  I want you to force them to publicly post an audit of their books.
Court: On what grounds do you request we compel an audit?
Charles: I think they are using preorder funds to develop their product.
Court: What evidence do you have for this?  
Charles: Well, I don't have any evidence.
Court: So why do you think they are doing this, have they said they were?  When did you make your preorder?
Charles: No, they said they wern't doing it.  I made a preorder in January.  I think they are a scam and a ponzi scheme.
Court: I see... So you ordered in January, when did you ask for a refund?
Charles: I've haven't asked for a refund.
Court: So, you think they are a scam, but you haven't requested a refund?  Why not?  Has anyone else requested a refund?
Charles: Well, I don't really have a good answer as to why I haven't requested a refund.  Yes, other people have requested refunds.
Court: How many refunds were requested?  How many were denied?
Charles: Well, I'm sure lots were requested.  I haven't heard of any being denied.
Court: So... people have requested refunds and been given them.  You have an order with the company and you haven't canceled it and requested a refund.  You say they are scam, but have no evidence, no one has ever been denied a refund and they are a privately held company. Is that correct?
Charles: Well, yes, basically. But... they haven't shipped my order yet!
Court: Baliff, please escort this man off the premises.  If he resists, I recommend holding him for psychiatric evaluation.

I'd wager that's a fairly accurate representation of what a court of law would say.

Hey, Joshy Boy! Allow me, The Grand Monumental Asshole at Large (GMAL for short) to present that proof once again that BFL has so conveniently removed from their website: http://web.archive.org/web/20110923170442/http://butterflylabs.com/pre-order-form/

Pre-order funds are not held in escrow so if you aren't comfortable with our using your payment to prepare your product, you may order post production units at the standard price of $599 when they become available.

The question no longer looks idiotic now, does it Josh?

Simple question, Josh: Are you able to read the above or are a couple testicles blocking your view?

[MXRider]

DEVELOPMENT vs MANUFACTURING

Might want to edit the title since there is no proof ITT

[MPOE-PR]

Pretty funny shit.

It sure would be funny if it weren't for the fact...

I meant funny in that other sense of the term.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Pretty funny shit.

It sure would be funny if it weren't for the fact...

I meant funny in that other sense of the term.

You know I have a image of your feet in my bathroom, don't you?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

DEVELOPMENT vs MANUFACTURING

Might want to edit the title since there is no proof ITT

Very good point! Therefore, BFL could have used a million dollars to do everything a business would normally do prior to manufacturing their first unit, and that would be completely different, eh?

Let me see! Filling a warehouse with parts needed prior to manufacturing comes to mind. Then tossing said parts in the trash because of a major fuckup, then refilling the warehouse with the correct parts prior to manufacturing the first units also comes to mind.

To be clear, BFL was in the development process until they started manufacturing product.

Care to try again?

[Hfleer]

Well let's face it, we can either say you got BFLed, or they pulled a BFL on you.

[tinus42]

The calculator at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ says that the ROI on certain units is approaching very closely...

Jalapenos: If you don't start mining by August you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Little Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Minirigs: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.


I suspect BFL had worked this out, thus Josh's statement of "backlog cleared by end of September 2013". For what showed so much promise, it sure has turned out bad.

The long term fallout of the debacle has pretty much killed any future ASIC development by BFL. The only way they can survive as a company is to diversify their product range (BitSafe is an example of this).

Will anyone trust BFL anymore, even with a different product range?

Best thing for them is to pack it in or sell the company off to some rich idiot.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The calculator at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ says that the ROI on certain units is approaching very closely...

Jalapenos: If you don't start mining by August you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Little Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Minirigs: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.


I suspect BFL had worked this out, thus Josh's statement of "backlog cleared by end of September 2013". For what showed so much promise, it sure has turned out bad.

The long term fallout of the debacle has pretty much killed any future ASIC development by BFL. The only way they can survive as a company is to diversify their product range (BitSafe is an example of this).

Will anyone trust BFL anymore, even with a different product range?

Best thing for them is to pack it in or sell the company off to some rich idiot.

Looks like they packed it up:

500 Internal Server Error

Sorry, something went wrong.

A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation.

If you see them, show them this information:

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[tinus42]

The calculator at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ says that the ROI on certain units is approaching very closely...

Jalapenos: If you don't start mining by August you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Little Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Singles: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.
Minirigs: If you don't start mining by September you won't get ROI within 12 months.


I suspect BFL had worked this out, thus Josh's statement of "backlog cleared by end of September 2013". For what showed so much promise, it sure has turned out bad.

The long term fallout of the debacle has pretty much killed any future ASIC development by BFL. The only way they can survive as a company is to diversify their product range (BitSafe is an example of this).

Will anyone trust BFL anymore, even with a different product range?

Best thing for them is to pack it in or sell the company off to some rich idiot.

Looks like they packed it up:

500 Internal Server Error

Sorry, something went wrong.

A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation.

If you see them, show them this information:

8RAPU_9VAhUnVuVA1wvhkSn8dy_koYMgEnv16tu_YZzw5qiJlaA_LRzUZMaV
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http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/butterflylabs.com

It's not just you! http://butterflylabs.com looks down from here.

BUT:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.butterflylabs.com

It's just you. http://www.butterflylabs.com is up.

Seems they haven't configured their DNS to redirect the domain name to www.butterflylabs.com 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/butterflylabs.com

It's not just you! http://butterflylabs.com looks down from here.

BUT:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.butterflylabs.com

It's just you. http://www.butterflylabs.com is up.

Seems they haven't configured their DNS to redirect the domain name to www.butterflylabs.com

It went back up, then was off awhile, now it's back up again.

Conclusion:

BFL's COO, COO COO the Clown, is playing with Sonny's Yo-Yo.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Wait one Goddamn motherfuckin' second! It just occurred to me after I posted the above that maybe they are in the process of penning some pages for further use, fucking up in the interim showing one of the pages live, and I just got lucky and witnessed it. Now, I wish I would have a grabbed a screenshot. The only reason I didn't was because the page was too long, and I would have had to resize it to make it fit. Since it was all simple B&W text, I opted for the C&P method thinking nothing of it.

ODD!

[Kouye]

BFL's COO, COO COO the Clown, is playing with Sonny's Yo-Yo.

I'm sure Sonny does not even know how to use a Yo-Yo.
Sue him, S.V!
Let's get this resolved once and for all.



...

And as a reminder, I'll just repeat a very simple observation.

Haha... You really think the money you gave them 11 months and 2 weeks ago is still untouched ?
That's cute.

(And if think they used that money to cover any fee... Then it's a scam, plain and simple, no possible argument.)

I didn't say that.

Good. Then you also suspect they spent the money you gave them away 11 months and 2 weeks ago.

Now...
What could they have spent that money on, since they haven't shipped anything to you ?

Right.
They spent that money to build and ship units to some random other guys.

This type of "business" has a name, I'll let you find out, enough clues here.
Hopefully, the money of some recent "pre-order" will be used to build and ship your own unit.

That's still a very immoral thing to get involved into.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg2749602#msg2749602

[MPOE-PR]

There was a topic on the BFL forum on Sunday which was deleted by,presumably, Josh (as he was online and was Last Activity: Moderating according to his profile).

The topic was raising awarenesss that Kansas police were investigating BFL and contained information such as contact information for the detective in charge.
It was promptly deleted and the user (Angelito) was permanently banned.
Several users in the shoutbox noticed it was removed and the IRC room was also aware as Angelito (under the handle Captain_Atom) came into the room looking for BFL Staff.

I'm not a big fan of censorship, especially as:

a) The refusal of refunds is wrong and, in some countries, highly illegal,
b) Pretty sure its in contravention of the FTC rules on shipping for 30 days or refund (unless the customer is given specific shipping dates to which they agree),
c) If people want a refund, they should be given a refund simply for ethical reasons
d) They're abusing the 'No refunds once shipping has commenced' rule. That rule is used for when a company ship YOUR order, not any order. Even in the UK that would be illegal (you can receive a refund for upto 7 days after you've received the order).

This'd be a lot more useful if it included said contact information.