Why all miners need to mine on a pool that pays them the tx fees.

[philipma1957]

I was doing some math so here goes.

Tx fees are nuts 600 sats are  not high enough.

Block fees are 5 or 6 even 8 and 9 btc.

Simple math is a block can have about 1000000 in room and the smallest transaction is 250
That is 4000 transaction as a max.  Close estimate.

So. Big pools make 20% of the blocks and do not pay tx fees to miners they keep the fees.

So 20% of 144 is 29 blocks say that is 200 coins.

If they. Do 100000. Sends of 0.001 and pay 0.001. They are doing 1/3 of the networks capablity for  that day.

so 100,000  x 0.002 = 200

but ½ is fees and ½ comes back to them

so each day  they make 100 coins in fees  and they ensure the network stays clogged up.

Instead of losing money  doing 100,000  x  0.001  in tx fees  they make a profit.

So if you mine at antpool, btc.com, viabtc.com  or rent to nicehash  and don't do any sends the big pools can simply clog the network and make money doing it.

My math is solid  As I use one 20% pool  and we know there are more then one 20% pool.

Based on this I now mine at mmpool.org  as they pay the tx fees to the block hitter.

This is not speculation this is math founded in fact.

https://btc.com/

            24 Hours Change   3 Days Lucky

1    BTC.com---------2506.00  PH/s
2    AntPool----------2417.21  PH/s
3    BTC.TOP---------2111.00  PH/s
4    SlushPool--------1537.66  PH/s
5    ViaBTC-----------1522.87  PH/s
6    F2Pool-----------1112.35  PH/s

so if the top 3 do what I say

there is a big time issue for all of us.

https://btc.com/stats/diff

13400 ph is the current hashrate.

Antpool and btc.com are the same company  that is 4900 of 13400

or 36.56%

lets break it down again using top 2 pools

36.56 x 144 daily blocks = 52.6 blocks a day  with fees of  7 coins  = 368.2 coins

150,000  sends of 0.001 + 0.001 tx fee = 300 coins  since  you are doing sends of 0.001  you get ½ back or 150 coins  and you spend 150 coins.

Since you collect 368 coins   you  net  218 coins for your 52.6 blocks which is a sweet 4.14 coins in fees.

since the max transactions in a day is  only 4000 x 144 = 560,000   and that is based on  227kb sends    which are only some.

we do around

https://blockchain.info/stats

370,000 transactions a day.

if antpool and btc.com  are taking 150,000 a day  in the way I say  the other transaction will be costly.

Lets make this more clear.

top 3 pools  get in on this

this comes to 7000 /13400 hash =  52.2 %

lets say they do  220,000  sends of 0.001 + 0.001 tx fee

they would be taking 220,000 of 370,000 sends   which is 59.4%  of the sends

since 52.2% x 144 = 75.168 block  with fees of 7 coins  it is 526 coins in fees  collected  by the 3 of them combined

since 220,000 x 0.001 = 220 coins  paid  they gain  306 coins  by doing this as a team of 3 pools

this is not block with holding  it is fee manipulation  .

My math is dead solid  factual  no speculation here.

To combat this  all miners need to mine on fee sharing pools.  and stop mining on pools that keep fees.

The math above shows the top 3 pools  will not stop doing this  since it makes them a shit ton of extra money.

So all you big guys  leave those pools . Mine on pools that share the fees.

check these charts

the math shows  this to be the reason.

[TheYankeesWin!]

Actually Phil is wrong  it is worse then he said.  The tx fees were 1495 coins.

The transactions were  370,000.

So if the top 3 pools  did 52.2% of the blocks   they would have earned  780 coins  in fees.

So if they spent  300 coins  to do 300,000  sends of 0.001 + 0.001 in fees   they net  780 - 300 = 480 coins.

Since the average fee is   1495 / 370, 000  =  0.00404  and they jammed the network with 0.001 fees  not 0.00404  they score big time.

We must mine on pools that share the fees  or we will die here.

While no one can prove  the top 3 pools are doing what Phil says the fact is  they would make a huge profit if they are doing it.

We as miners must not mine at these pools.

[mdude77]

+1 for Kano's pool!

M

[Shazam!!!]

Very insightful Philipma! I've been doing a lot of research about pools trying to choose one for when I get set up again.
A lot has changed since 2015 that's for sure! I've been seeing a lot of people talk about this in different threads, but
you hit the nail on the head. At what point can we get a miners club going that only includes people with this mindset?
I don't want to use the word "union", but a group of people who stick to a certain set of rules, to take back power from
the big pools. I for one do not like what I see from the big pools, and wish there was something WE could do about it.

[kano]

Very insightful Philipma! I've been doing a lot of research about pools trying to choose one for when I get set up again.
A lot has changed since 2015 that's for sure! I've been seeing a lot of people talk about this in different threads, but
you hit the nail on the head. At what point can we get a miners club going that only includes people with this mindset?
I don't want to use the word "union", but a group of people who stick to a certain set of rules, to take back power from
the big pools. I for one do not like what I see from the big pools, and wish there was something WE could do about it.

Ah - it's simple - mine at a pool that pays the miners transaction fees ... like mine

[Shazam!!!]

Very insightful Philipma! I've been doing a lot of research about pools trying to choose one for when I get set up again.
A lot has changed since 2015 that's for sure! I've been seeing a lot of people talk about this in different threads, but
you hit the nail on the head. At what point can we get a miners club going that only includes people with this mindset?
I don't want to use the word "union", but a group of people who stick to a certain set of rules, to take back power from
the big pools. I for one do not like what I see from the big pools, and wish there was something WE could do about it.

Ah - it's simple - mine at a pool that pays the miners transaction fees ... like mine

Actually, not tryin to blow smoke, but Your pool is at the top of my list. Has been for about a week. I can honestly say that
I really like what I see. I spent about 4hrs alone just reading back through your thread. Very nice work!

[mdude77]

Very insightful Philipma! I've been doing a lot of research about pools trying to choose one for when I get set up again.
A lot has changed since 2015 that's for sure! I've been seeing a lot of people talk about this in different threads, but
you hit the nail on the head. At what point can we get a miners club going that only includes people with this mindset?
I don't want to use the word "union", but a group of people who stick to a certain set of rules, to take back power from
the big pools. I for one do not like what I see from the big pools, and wish there was something WE could do about it.

There is something WE can do about it.

Mine elsewhere.  Support the little guys.  Like Kano's pool.

And spread the word.  Recruit.

M

[philipma1957]

I looked at it more closely since the top six keep fees   but via.btc does  give back some of them at the monment.

So  the top five are a no go zero money sense to mine on them.

Viabtc is more complex.  they are  paying more then the block  but not all the fees to the miners.

but the top five simply can not be used.

Kano = okay
ck solo = okay
the other ck = okay
mmpool = okay


nicehash is a no go as the rentals could point to the top five.

I have to study this  but this is a different  50% attack

then block with-holding    it is fucking worse  really bad  truly  will kill btc  while the top pools make more profit doing it then not doing it.

A fix is very important  some say segwit  but I think not.

A simple  jump to 4,000,000 size  blocks would work for now.

or everyone   boycotts those top five.

[wavelengthsf]

It also helps to circulate lists of pools that we know don't pay fees. I posted on reddit about Antpool, and people pointed out that only the PPNS and Solo pools keep the fees, the PPS version charges a percentage of the fees.

Aside from Antpool - does BTC.com pay fees? Who else withholds these?

[CrypotoCreanis]

Very insightful Philipma! I've been doing a lot of research about pools trying to choose one for when I get set up again.
A lot has changed since 2015 that's for sure! I've been seeing a lot of people talk about this in different threads, but
you hit the nail on the head. At what point can we get a miners club going that only includes people with this mindset?
I don't want to use the word "union", but a group of people who stick to a certain set of rules, to take back power from
the big pools. I for one do not like what I see from the big pools, and wish there was something WE could do about it.

Ah - it's simple - mine at a pool that pays the miners transaction fees ... like mine

As a noob who has been researching and learning and soaking up everything I can for the past 1.5 months while I wait for my S9's, the last piece of my puzzle is what pool to use. After all of my reading the recommendations on this forum, I will use Kano.

A bit daunting for a noob to setup but I am sure once I actually try with my miners in hand, I will have no problem. Looks like you have really put together a solid trustworthy pool in a field of greedy pool owners. Kudos!

[beltsniffer]

I looked at it more closely since the top six keep fees   but via.btc does  give back some of them at the monment.

So  the top five are a no go zero money sense to mine on them.

Viabtc is more complex.  they are  paying more then the block  but not all the fees to the miners.

but the top five simply can not be used.

I'm not pushing viabtc, but that is only their pps+ that pays partial fees. The pplns pays fees and they actually use a 5nd method like kano.is

The do however charge a 2% fee like slush which is more than double the normal kano.is rate.

[Shazam!!!]

The more I think about this, the more it gets me going! I really want to help do something to
help out. So.....I took some time and threw together some code for a Signature to show some
support, and to help spread the word a little. It's nothing flashy, but it gets the message out.

@phlipma, I linked back to this thread for others to read. If not allowed I'll remove it.

@kano,@-ck,@Jonny bravo--I added links out to your pools. If you'd like to not be on there, I'll remove it.

If anyone else needs to be added, please let me know and I'll add them.

If You would like to Help Support Our Mining Community with this Signature, Please paste it in your profile. Thank You!!!

Example:

Corporate Mining Pools are Stealing Your Money and Centralizing BTCitcoin!!!

Learn the Truth about Big Corporate Mining Pools!!! Be Part of The BTCitcoin Community!!!

Mine at Pools That Support BTCitcoin!!!  Kano's Pool -ck's Pool Jonny's Pool   p2pool

Code:

[center][b]Corporate Mining Pools are [I] Stealing[/I] Your Money and Centralizing [btc]itcoin!!![/b][/center][center][b]Learn the [/b][url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2634505.0][b][u][size=15pt]Truth [/size][/u][/b][/url][b] about Big Corporate Mining Pools!!! [/b][b] Be Part of The [btc]itcoin Community!!! [/b][/center] [center][b][u] Mine at Pools That Support [btc]itcoin!!! [/u][/b] [b][u][url=https://kano.is/]  Kano's Pool [/url][url=http://ckpool.org/] -ck's Pool [/url] [url=http://www.bravo-mining.com/] Jonny's Pool [/url]  [url=http://p2pool.in/] p2pool [/url][/center]

134vc
Updated 01/28/18, 02/26/18, 04/06/18

[ukjack]

What does it mean when btc tweets things like this? https://twitter.com/btccom_official/status/944844422616944641

180% earnings?
How does this compare with Kano etc?

[kano]

What does it mean when btc tweets things like this? https://twitter.com/btccom_official/status/944844422616944641

180% earnings?
How does this compare with Kano etc?

The problem is that they aren't telling you what % of the block's BTC they are keeping coz it's PPS.
On my pool it's 0.9% of total BTC that comes in - 99.1% of all incoming BTC goes back to miners - way more then them - (though it's 100% at the moment til the end of the year)

On a PPS pool they'd have to actually tell you what they are keeping and giving out over a month to determine what % they are keeping.
It will be higher than 0.9% and extremely likely many times higher.

All PPS pools like to provide ambiguous information about their payouts - yes they all do - so that people don't realise how high the fees really are.

[jonnybravo0311]

Preach on, Brother Phil!  I fail to understand why people continue to donate their coins at such an alarmingly high rate.  Maybe they're just so used to paying taxes, that losing 30% seems normal...

[frodocooper]

I've stickied this topic to help spread the message.

If anyone else needs to be added, please let me know and I'll add them.

Do consider adding P2Pool — both mainnet and jtoomim's fork.

Here is a simple step-by-step guide to setting up a PyPy-based jtoomimnet P2Pool node on Ubuntu 16.04 and later.

Edit: The guide assumes that your system is running an up-to-date and fully-synced Bitcoin full node — e.g., Bitcoin Core — with the -server, -rpcuser=<user>, and -rpcpassword=<pw> command-line options enabled, and that your firewall allows incoming connections on ports 8333 (Bitcoin's P2P port), 9332 (P2Pool's default worker port), and 9333 (P2Pool's P2P port).

[digaran]

Thank you frodocooper for the sticky, this is really important, theymos must put a link in the news header for every body to see, there is nothing stopping them now, if they are not sharing the fees with miners, it means that they are using your hash rate to manipulate the fees without paying you any thing from it, if every body just leaves them and starts mining on the pools sharing block reward and the fees, I'd tell you how the fees will go back to normal because these greedy pools would run out of money. think about the long term, don't help them to keep the fees high, in long term people would switch to other coins and when they do that, bringing them back would be extremely hard.

[MaxiMan]

Interesting... but this applies to just Bitcoin mining ?
How about the multi algo pools?
Zpool, Nicehash, Prohashing?

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Interesting... but this applies to just Bitcoin mining ?
How about the multi algo pools?
Zpool, Nicehash, Prohashing?

good point but - this is the BITCOIN area so not the place to discuss that.
If there isn't one already, start a thread about it in the altcoin discussion area.

[philipma1957]

Interesting... but this applies to just Bitcoin mining ?
How about the multi algo pools?
Zpool, Nicehash, Prohashing?

That  is a really hard question to answer.

But  I see only BTC  in trouble   as the math is dead solid  correct   that  BTC can  have fee rate jacked up with ease.

Do I mine at Zpool  yes  not BTC
Do I mine at NiceHash yes not BTC
Do I mine at Miningpoolhub yes not BTC

At the moment  BTC  has  an easy way to  manipulate fees  by the top Six pools

the math is there.

You can argue that mining with

 https://pool.viabtc.com/pool/btc/profit/ALL/

that they pay  back some of the fees.  all of the coins above 100%  is some of the fees.

So to make sure  I am not feeding the fee monster and not getting killed by variance.


I mine 2 s-9s on viabtc.--------- no variance
I mine 2 s-9s on mmpool. ------ high variance



If alot of miners  did this  problem goes away
and you will not get crushe with high fees or high variance.

so ½ on viabtc pps ---------- no variance
½ on kano-------------------- high variance

or ½ on viabtc pps ---------- no variance
½ on mmpool---------------- high variance

or
½ on viabtc pps --------------no variance
½ on ck's pool ----------------high variance


any pattern like the one above

would be helpful




Date   Hashrate   Total Profit   Unit Output(TH/s)   PPS Profit   PPLNS Profit   SOLO Profit   PPS+ Rate
2017-12-26   22.844T   0.00166932   0.00015943   0.00135316   0.00031616   0   118.43%
2017-12-25   22.541T   0.00377373   0.00016741   0.00290061   0.00087312   0   124.9%
2017-12-24   22.719T   0.00425017   0.00018707   0.0029248   0.00132537   0   139.5%
2017-12-23   22.555T   0.00494303   0.00021915   0.0029121   0.00203093   0   162.95%
2017-12-22   22.510T   0.00536606   0.00023838   0.00289729   0.00246877   0   177.8%
2017-12-21   22.788T   0.00492021   0.00021591   0.00294698   0.00197323   0   160.28%
2017-12-20   22.867T   0.00415326   0.00018162   0.00294023   0.00121303   0   135.61%
2017-12-19   22.492T   0.00376132   0.00016723   0.00289554   0.00086578   0   124.7%
2017-12-18   22.656T   0.00438107   0.00019337   0.00341745   0.00096362   0   123.07%
2017-12-17   24.742T   0.0046689   0.00018870        0.00377236   0.00089654   0   118.81%
2017-12-16   27.328T   0.00523549   0.00019158   0.00415086   0.00108463   0   121.08%
2017-12-15   27.102T   0.00501499   0.00018504   0.00412332   0.00089167   0   116.76%
2017-12-14   27.754T   0.00533809   0.00019233   0.00420781   0.00113028   0   121.78%
2017-12-13   27.653T   0.00518566   0.00018752   0.00419169   0.00099397   0   118.76%


As you see above  they do pay some back extra.

The math for excluding   this style of mining  on their pool is not as compelling.

I run 2 s-9's there see above
I run my other 2 s-9's here


http://mmpool.org/statistics
Estimated Payout

Rank...Id........DGM Estimate......PPS.....................   Shares.............   Rate (MHash/s)
1   a5d78fff   9.74241459   0.00000000   130,161,014,576_____   0

2   71602a00   0.43753559   0.00000000   20,405,489,465______   23,917,084

3   2d0ba29d   0.21326891   0.00000000   12,671,491,314______   5,583,990
4   c932f3ed   0.23847335   0.00000000   11,985,725,219______   0
5   5e935067   0.05308415   0.00000000   3,806,752,856_______   13,209,683
6   433aa491   0.07248369   0.00000000   3,183,604,233_______   1,072,527
7   0f7b9499   0.03441520   0.00000000   2,603,052,116_______   0
8   d7ec4cdf   0.02936538   0.00000000   2,460,009,494_______   5,852,435
9   8dae603b   0.02509840   0.00000000   1,746,057,383_______   0
10   6bee0a6a   0.03466155   0.00000000   1,735,497,157_______   1,058,581
11   5f5049cc   0.01200661   0.00000000   1,043,206,076_______   0
12   7a6d3ba4   0.01335813   0.00000000   957,114,215_________   1,104,451
13   8b36feaa   0.01720647   0.00000000   919,463,117_________   442,747
14   8f21a6e7   0.00845201   0.00000000   804,922,346_________   12,844,869
15   922fcd5c   0.01101717   0.00000000   656,867,328_________   0


So ½ my hash rate of s-9's  is on a pool that full pays tx fees to the miners -------MMPOOL.org
and to prevent  crazy bad variance  ½ my hashrate  is on a pool that pays some of its tx fees to the miners---- viabtc.org