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Author Topic: Why all miners need to mine on a pool that pays them the tx fees.  (Read 2897 times)
TheYankeesWin!
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December 26, 2017, 02:50:39 PM
 #21

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2649096.0

Thanks to d57heinz

Here is a chart  From this link. Last 30 days of mining.

https://poolprofit.io/en/

It shows  the top 12 pools

SlushPool  pays  rewards method B------------------14.61144 coins
GBMiners   pays Partial  rewards method C----------14.51882 coins

ViaBTC      pays reward method B PPLNS ------------14.41793 coins
ViaBTC      pays partial rewards Method C PPS+ -----------14.16793 coins

on the  darker side

Antpool  PPS+  pays Partial reward method C -----------------  14.369 grabbing  0.541 coins a block
Antpool  PPS    pays  Partial reward method C -----------------13.125  grabbing  1.79 coins a block
Antpool  PPLNS pays  Score reward method A ------------------ 12.50 grabbing   2.41  coins a block
Antpool Solo   pays Score reward Method A --------------------- 12.375 grabbing   2.54 coins a block

Why on earth would anyone in the world  mine  antpool solo instead of ck pool solo?

last I looked ck would take under  .3 btc  on a solo hit while antpool takes 2.54 btc.
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kano
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December 26, 2017, 05:34:50 PM
 #22

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2649096.0


Thanks to d57heinz




Here is a chart  From this link. Last 30 days of mining.


https://poolprofit.io/en/


It shows  the top 12 pools

...
Doesn't list any small pools - or the best paying one - so it's pointless Tongue

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December 27, 2017, 03:52:36 PM
 #23

yeah I am looking for a better list then that.

I checked it out and one thing it does show  is that Antpool  is grabbing an average of 2.2 extra coins from the miners. for every block they made in the month of December.    I know miners worry about variance.

But if you have 10 s-9s.

Five at your pool  kano.is  and five at  viabtc.com doing pps+   the variance factor  becomes a non-issue.  Plus the ability for fee manipulation gets greatly reduced.

I have proven that fee manipulation  by the top pools that are not paying tx fees  would make a profit  if they choose to do it.

I am researching evidence that  the top pools are doing  fee manipulation.
I have a project that will be able to show an example of fee manipulation occurring in about a dozen days. Frankly I want to prove myself wrong as it would really dishearten me  to find out that  it is being systematically done by any major pools.

I am looking at these transactions

https://blockchain.info/tx/17673434e6a74de37403db7d2f7ca1193154824d7f389f629ea6d5411b2ab937
https://blockchain.info/tx/9af30f8dbe02dc5adf324ac4fb06dad3815b7583568ad717e4b236c5f25c60cc
https://blockchain.info/tx/f5ceeb1a6b782b3797af37067926d345bf8cfd5f7540eda1003afe92087c2fd1
https://blockchain.info/tx/42f64e8e2920394660e8aacccd2d27d1a5c49ca3bbcf964136f6d828e7c8249b
https://blockchain.info/tx/a5272370cd24c0106d547c618128e3ea6e6055b2f66ce850c3b16511637aa446
https://blockchain.info/tx/4aea26856d0eb1d9dc936c8efe44e685add68297c118976c314930e373a2b798
https://blockchain.info/tx/2a57d3ef5ff7838a031508e3ab3f6478668f516dd39b01f74cd6d7e4b5ecae24
https://blockchain.info/tx/14908a4458cb5ed452a8a2eb9873c796dc0fa3553d81c6c97f7bad32b2208625
https://blockchain.info/tx/a7aaeddb9cd15d3acd574a6120de45d2a4402cb93b1004072e5469e26af2ebc7
https://blockchain.info/tx/c944c18f5e34fdb0f770a6332a6d610d4b453bfa82b68fc9e392720361100521
https://blockchain.info/tx/3228bef9377c99f88940615375dfa7b69e54c18dee5ebe5a37dd71688f4579b4
https://blockchain.info/tx/b34a3e937a975963799f94fa086afde0bbe542a7df63f41de9315ba6c1877a3e
https://blockchain.info/tx/a30068e21639b3fa621cff5b8affff2d523aadecc0406ba259561b2b6acdca7d
https://blockchain.info/tx/d58ea37c4719feba5bf337e8306479e40f078e7167b76e8255b2f90fb724c298
https://blockchain.info/tx/ad0b49b09896b5ff025615e7f02a7156ca04f2def42b5d6cb2ff06f1c014ff65
https://blockchain.info/tx/c286b5909df2f1581e918c0037533f07c775cbbfa6adf189adc73e4527a8c026
https://blockchain.info/tx/23daeefc9cb7db69dc0b16d20d64f81e75b06e5a7a79e23619517f215940f9d6
https://blockchain.info/tx/9cc68d81f0558d618201ae040d877a52fb5565f129e9fa0322f590ce4f17ebdb
https://blockchain.info/tx/95f4fe6b237d688f6bcc861abc74a5f049e2047c6dd4da719705f343645e6478
https://blockchain.info/tx/059c6befdff25451384c9eef37bdcf9dbc71c7230b9a90b88679cba88d5bdf2e
https://blockchain.info/tx/6faf16ad6ddb81c4a811a5753104f7be91885c4ac83d24f6bba8e59a66af84f8
https://blockchain.info/tx/d9ad37c604ea876673785a3fa1d9438051289181da40e8ff60d2457618263f29
https://blockchain.info/tx/a2957092e355aefd86575af0da4829def71cd7a32fdae8f79aa54e8aa2c47083
https://blockchain.info/tx/a83a5c355d4d5c37f1636587e6740ccf8a9ee228f80559e7ae7579f38e299c80
https://blockchain.info/tx/b918b596c390196c0d41ab3fe67241173d161cb991ce939eb78568487e16b5ca
https://blockchain.info/tx/c8017d86831fa565df40606cdfe5b08da449df1e133e65ecf7188c71c81189d3
https://blockchain.info/tx/33055364302afa3a57835211fa7f92de8f8cedc55f8726f612d7c7e618967d93
https://blockchain.info/tx/183e8dd0c03ad7833021c38d64aa4a5d352eba279a7149e9288f6a57477bd2ce
https://blockchain.info/tx/74d7be655ad55fd8967cb89d8a950f12bad1c8a9d4d671e3cebce8bb91a0d2eb

There is a pattern  with the tx fees.

These cover  Oct 30  2017 to Nov 28  2017

I will try to understand it better.  I do have more info up to  Dec 27 2017.  I will list it later.

https://blockchain.info/tx/45ed1dbab4a9f347ffa2cfe3e5fc201dfc4322d399463d08be0c5ce4db70ef1c
https://blockchain.info/tx/bcfaeb1402d0437080bc3740d15f7726a8301186e8120313e9e353e98cdac0ca
https://blockchain.info/tx/a361d101554d2d48e23bf31b5dddee1af978f64fcb387671d33fe8f9fd42db7e
https://blockchain.info/tx/03cb817a2c98af52d7d1afc296d06a2ef70d3f4d41936a75698688e6c5418245
https://blockchain.info/tx/2048e73200fd59aaae0d68968257e696abab31a1b47f68851c8b2edffbb4467d
https://blockchain.info/tx/31dffadfbe7bfce5f63b7cdf7f21f2a993852a939eb572f5fd7eba0182798680
https://blockchain.info/tx/90876262cb6cf576b726a7d4a026a2aaef32ccc8b4482303eb8195006f7a1c16
https://blockchain.info/tx/dbde6de4e059168ced0a9a2a41b9128ae5eb25b53d23c835f87dc8bb3dbad405
https://blockchain.info/tx/bb07b4e2e06060847b2e653d942933562c2d5f1497505fe2064bf1917d700adf
https://blockchain.info/tx/ec467813073e2e003f00c9cd845199d688c273e930b26cbb8deff4dc70a5eb3c
https://blockchain.info/tx/2ba61e9bc5fd8464ca21640d57f6e0cff50477544e2c9f503db35b7f05cbd1e7
https://blockchain.info/tx/d3566d218d3f14f4619f64a570d1d198c3e4eebe900eacbae00d5645cae7fa33
https://blockchain.info/tx/162dc9431ad2b5b85380c06859e8243799da9a5e90b9adc5caed246fe7788a81
https://blockchain.info/tx/30c1067f9c5ca4538814d450ec612e13bb2b2d5dd465985c2669dfefbcc8090b
https://blockchain.info/tx/cc1d17ee7c56436b87028fd366bd5e9a66f515271378103fa39682f75e50af6b
https://blockchain.info/tx/aabad50905ae7ca62e1a2468f08b3ee320925561c9a7e6fe63984c7d532f841d
https://blockchain.info/tx/f79391952fc3ad716f25d79ef2991116b3644659b56d4ce3785c20fb989e5239
https://blockchain.info/tx/9920fa65dbe4b3f4b0418676fcce56bc2beab2528b0035b2764551fe2f968dfd
https://blockchain.info/tx/8291e89fe66e2c7637c47518eec2fcbe9bd0cd7aaed3a7ee6411135f08519941
https://blockchain.info/tx/8d0322220f63707f7abe5a9997b9a7a8f124ba784d6e081a8027a20596d6ce54
https://blockchain.info/tx/77e31e37edca29e8071bc99f11d42bcc09f19d1e9e5d2ad720cd663b54192ce8
https://blockchain.info/tx/4cb91872f31454e2b737c662c5064d0321a9088deefa7b8f33dbf86526f5b894
https://blockchain.info/tx/7d5321e49899da20810358ed82563cbe9374d4c6b170022c093bf0b52f53bd16
https://blockchain.info/tx/3dc822afa91e66ef941b7c23a2774adbc79864e9394ec9bc64f1e296413cdaf9

Keeping this locked for now.

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
philipma1957
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January 08, 2018, 04:44:53 PM
 #24

Here is my issue with the transactions above.

read the post above  the fees here for a 1335 byte transaction that creates 30 to 50 227 byte sized transaction
most of those 1335 byte transaction were white listed at 0.0001 btc

yet a normal 1000 byte transaction cost 0.004 to 0.009 if you

Study these charts below




I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
philipma1957
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January 08, 2018, 05:02:57 PM
 #25

So I pay 0.0001 for a 1335 byte transaction

while the average  pay 0.0052 btc to 0.0117 for a 1335 transaction

under 8 sats a byte vs 400 sats a byte

the transactions above   were 1 per day small scale I found them because I was one of the payee's on each one.

By itself that  is not so bad for the payee to do this with a side deal from a pool.

If the pool  returns the vast majority of the tx fees to the miners.

but lets say antpool and btc.com

return  ½ the tx fees not 100%

they mine 40% of all coins between them so ½ fee payback = 20% of all fees they keep.

so the transactions I show

0.0001 for 1335 bytes makes  about fortyfour  227 sized tx later or  10000 bytes later on

and at .004 for 1000 it is 0.04 in fees later and as high as 0.09 in fees on one of the higher days.


at best antpool+btc.com keeps 20% of all network fees each day   so 20% of 0.04 = 0.008

so for each 0.0001 spent they get 0.0080   an 80 fold increase for them


worse case was 0.09 x say 25% = 0.0225 for spending 0.0001  or a 225 to 1 increase.

this is not good as it can make it next to impossible to move coins

I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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January 08, 2018, 10:47:28 PM
 #26

TBH I caught yobit skimming during the full-block days.


See;  When the blocks were full several months ago, They released a a statement that they would be increasing their withdraw fee to make for faster transaction times.   Totally fine with that.  They even announced it in their twitter.

Next, TX fees were lowering;  the network was less congested ~.5-1 month after the BTC/BCC fork. (or was it the BTC/BTG fork??)

I noticed when I did a withdraw from yobit;  the fees for withdraw were still over 0.0025mbtc.   When I checked the Tx for my incoming payment from them;  I noticed total TX fees were 0.0009xx.  Totally not what they said.  There were only 2 transfers in that single txid;  and I think one of the two was providing the change back to one of their wallets.

I opened a support ticket;  they said the tx fees were clearly mentioned before and there was "no problem here".

I referenced this tweet in my support ticket: https://twitter.com/yobitexchange/status/872855875299442689?lang=en
also quoting the txid that a WAY different number has been used to "speed up confirmation" which was lightyears less than what they took out to do the withdraw (they took over 0.0025)
Here's the Tx from them: https://blockchain.info/tx/76de2aa961a5a2edfcf9c81179b025ecac6195b443315b53458808294c289573


So...  they ended up silently changing their withdraw fee.  My response proving their support ticket lie;  is still un-answered.... which is.....


See;  Everyone is always tempted to steal or take a cut wherever they can.

The US government is a prime example of this standard disheartening activity.



I really highly suggest that people blow this up.... I mean, as far out as possible.    If we can stomp down the fatties;  they will feel the pains of their dishonest behavior.

Not telling the truth is dishonest.
Withholding vital pertinent information is dishonest.

We should do what we can to squeeze out as much of this in our community as possible.

kano
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January 08, 2018, 11:14:20 PM
 #27

There's also a 2nd very obvious possibility about what's going on:

Since fees are so high that you can only really spend thousands of dollars with BTC to get lower fees than using a credit card or paypal,  that means that people will want a way to make small BTC transactions (hundreds of dollars or less)

If Core keeps the block size at 1M and SegWit isn't a block size solution (as was obvious before it was implemented) then anyone who wants people to use off chain transactions will be happy with the current BTC problem (that of course still hasn't been solved by SegWit)

That would mean payment channels and side chains ... hmm I wonder who wants to make people use that ...

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
FreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.is Majority developer of the ckpool code
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
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January 09, 2018, 08:19:01 PM
 #28

There's also a 2nd very obvious possibility about what's going on:

Since fees are so high that you can only really spend thousands of dollars with BTC to get lower fees than using a credit card or paypal,  that means that people will want a way to make small BTC transactions (hundreds of dollars or less)

If Core keeps the block size at 1M and SegWit isn't a block size solution (as was obvious before it was implemented) then anyone who wants people to use off chain transactions will be happy with the current BTC problem (that of course still hasn't been solved by SegWit)

That would mean payment channels and side chains ... hmm I wonder who wants to make people use that ...

 Roger Roger Roger Roger
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January 11, 2018, 01:34:03 PM
 #29

@ kano  my personal solution is two fold 

1) mine at a full fee payment pool  with some hash and mine at a 50% fee payment pool with the rest.

Not perfect only okay

28 th on a partial pool

17 th on a full pay tx pool

So I get about  75%  of fees paid back .

2) mine gpus  and alt coins

I have  about  20k worth of  s-9s
I have  about  50k worth of  1080tis

I try using ltc to move funds around as it cost less.

I figure  a simple move to 8 million  size for transactions ends the fee problem  for a few years.
I know 32 million is max we can go to.

Which  should cover issue for a decade.
My hope is a strong attempt to boost fees using the method about does not happen.

1000 sats for a 227 size tx is 0.00227000 btc about  30 usd  this could be the new norm  for moving coins.





I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net...
I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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