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Author Topic: MasterCoin: New Protocol Layer Starting From “The Exodus Address”  (Read 447605 times)
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Tachikoma
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October 28, 2013, 10:33:35 PM
 #1561

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

I sold 10 test Mastercoin to myself for the sum of 0.0001 Bitcoins. Let me explain how this works.


I added recent distributed transactions to the order book page on mastercoin-explorer.

I achieved all this using the mastercoin-explorer website and Bitcoind, if anybody knows how to deal with the Bitcoin-qt/d console and wants to try this let me know.

As always this is just my implementation of the rules set out by the official spec, this won't be set in stone until the other developers come up with their own implementations and they come to the same conclusion as my libraries. This is quite a difficult Mastercoin message so I expect things to change around a little before everything is final.

We are getting closer  Cheesy 

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October 28, 2013, 10:50:55 PM
 #1562

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

I sold 10 test Mastercoin to myself for the sum of 0.0001 Bitcoins. Let me explain how this works.


I added recent distributed transactions to the order book page on mastercoin-explorer.

I achieved all this using the mastercoin-explorer website and Bitcoind, if anybody knows how to deal with the Bitcoin-qt/d console and wants to try this let me know.

As always this is just my implementation of the rules set out by the official spec, this won't be set in stone until the other developers come up with their own implementations and they come to the same conclusion as my libraries. This is quite a difficult Mastercoin message so I expect things to change around a little before everything is final.

We are getting closer  Cheesy 


Congrats ! The beginning of a new era... I'm proud to be a witness of that !
You (and any other dev) will deserve the bounty Smiley
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October 28, 2013, 10:57:16 PM
 #1563

Awesome job Tachikoma!  This is really exciting!

Can you modify the order book to distinguish test MSC transactions?
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October 28, 2013, 11:02:21 PM
 #1564

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

I sold 10 test Mastercoin to myself for the sum of 0.0001 Bitcoins. Let me explain how this works.


I added recent distributed transactions to the order book page on mastercoin-explorer.

I achieved all this using the mastercoin-explorer website and Bitcoind, if anybody knows how to deal with the Bitcoin-qt/d console and wants to try this let me know.

As always this is just my implementation of the rules set out by the official spec, this won't be set in stone until the other developers come up with their own implementations and they come to the same conclusion as my libraries. This is quite a difficult Mastercoin message so I expect things to change around a little before everything is final.

We are getting closer  Cheesy 


This post needs to be copied onto Reddit and then tweeted.
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October 28, 2013, 11:06:05 PM
 #1565

Awesome job Tachikoma!  This is really exciting!

Can you modify the order book to distinguish test MSC transactions?

Done. Although I don't expect non-test transactions in the near future. A lot of testing will have to be done before we can allow real transactions. There are so many edge cases that need to be tested. Building the initial code is the easy part..

And with that it's time for some sleep. Smiley

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October 28, 2013, 11:07:55 PM
 #1566

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

I sold 10 test Mastercoin to myself for the sum of 0.0001 Bitcoins. Let me explain how this works.


I added recent distributed transactions to the order book page on mastercoin-explorer.

I achieved all this using the mastercoin-explorer website and Bitcoind, if anybody knows how to deal with the Bitcoin-qt/d console and wants to try this let me know.

As always this is just my implementation of the rules set out by the official spec, this won't be set in stone until the other developers come up with their own implementations and they come to the same conclusion as my libraries. This is quite a difficult Mastercoin message so I expect things to change around a little before everything is final.

We are getting closer  Cheesy 


This post needs to be copied onto Reddit and then tweeted.

Reddit part: http://www.reddit.com/r/mastercoin/comments/1pf8o5/the_first_distributed_mastercoin_to_bitcoin/

We don't have an official twitter account, but anybody who wants to tweet it should feel free Smiley

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October 28, 2013, 11:59:23 PM
 #1567

In order to avoid any accusations of giving people insider information on my plans for my own MSC, I'm posting this email between myself and David Johnston (WARNING: the following quote is heavily speculative! I'm NOT offering anyone investment advice - I just don't want to give unfair access to one person about my tentative plans)

Quote
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 2:12 PM, David Johnston wrote:
Quote
    J.R.

    The Mastercoin project is making awesome progress. Its everything I was hoping the project could be.

    I'm just curious. Now that you have $4,000,000 in MSC value (just in the first 60 days), how is the convincing of the wife coming along?

    Any light on the horizon of her being convinced its something you should spend more of your working hours on?

    Thanks for all your work so far and great even handed leadership of the effort.

    Talk with you soon.

    Best Regards,

    David A. Johnston

Yeah, she knows that we now have a lot more of that crazy theoretical money Smiley

I really feel that the MSC price has a long way to go, and regardless of the price I doubt I will sell any at all before the new tax year starts, as I'd rather not have to deal with the tax implications any sooner than necessary. I'm more optimistic about future MSC values than even the wildest speculations I have seen (mostly based on my belief that the escrow funds will lock up most of the MSC float someday), but if we see another 10x of growth, I'd be able to quit my job after selling about 1% of my MSC, which would be pretty hard to resist.

I don't know how soon any of that might happen, but for now I'm not doing anything hasty . . .

Thanks!

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October 29, 2013, 01:19:35 AM
Last edit: October 29, 2013, 01:49:30 AM by solex
 #1568

In order to avoid any accusations of giving people insider information on my plans for my own MSC, I'm posting this email between myself and David Johnston...

Such transparency can only help maintain momentum for the Mastercoin project and enthusiasm in those involved.

As the for the project, the potential in leveraging the blockchain for smart property is huge. It is excellent that core dev are supporting OP_RETURN data in the reference client. Who knows where this will lead? Those wondering where the next google or facebook might emerge from should be paying attention to this space.

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October 29, 2013, 01:47:43 AM
 #1569

Anybody interested in helping our chinese friends buy MSC and/or get involved in other ways?

Quote
Hi David, J.R, Ron, Sam and Lee:

The MasterCoin has been very hot topic recently in China.

Please allow me introduce Mr. really Lee to you guys.

Really has translated the Mastercoin's white paper into Chinese version, he is running a Mastercoin community via QQ group with 65 members now. (Chines skype)

He told me that there are some Chinese are willing to purchase the Mastercoins, but they have no idea how to buy from second market, and they do not know
how to involve in the project development.....

IMHO: That will be great if you guys invite some Chinese into your group/foundation, help promote and protect Mastercoin project in China.

Anything I could be in assistance, please let me.

Any comments?

Cheers,

Bo

My response:

Quote
Hi Lee!

I've posted a copy of this email in our project thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.msg3429668#msg3429668

We're happy to support our Chinese friends getting involved with MasterCoin, although we don't have any websites or services in Chinese yet. That might be a good starting point for someone who wants to get involved, especially if they speak enough English to work with our developers making English sites. Note that someone who creates such a site will probably be eligible for some payment from our coding contest (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=292628.240). The potential Chinese buyers may want to pool their money and choose an English-speaking representative to make the purchase on their behalf on the ad-hoc exchange MaxMint is running (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=287145.0), then distribute the coins purchased to the people who contributed. Otherwise, they can use the distributed exchange when that is ready.

Thanks!

-J.R.

Hi David, J.R, Ron, Sam and Lee:

I am the guy who has translated the Mastercoin's white paper into Chinese version.With the help of changjia http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7760/a-brief-discussion-on-the-mechanism-design-of-bitcoin/ ,we have made a  chinese Mastercoin Special discussion area in 8btc.com  http://8btc.com/forum-69-1.html. I think 8btc.com will be a good Media platform of Mastercoin in china.

Miner and I have done some work as the link between the followers of MSC in east and west .I think we will do it better in the future.If we both get a  seat in MSC board that will be great.

Tachikoma's big news of the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction,that is amazing! P2P trading platform has been rising now.

Many thanks to Bo Shen.

Cheers,

Really


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October 29, 2013, 02:48:00 AM
 #1570

In order to avoid any accusations of giving people insider information on my plans for my own MSC, I'm posting this email between myself and David Johnston (WARNING: the following quote is heavily speculative! I'm NOT offering anyone investment advice - I just don't want to give unfair access to one person about my tentative plans)

Quote
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 2:12 PM, David Johnston wrote:
Quote
    J.R.

    The Mastercoin project is making awesome progress. Its everything I was hoping the project could be.

    I'm just curious. Now that you have $4,000,000 in MSC value (just in the first 60 days), how is the convincing of the wife coming along?

    Any light on the horizon of her being convinced its something you should spend more of your working hours on?

    Thanks for all your work so far and great even handed leadership of the effort.

    Talk with you soon.

    Best Regards,

    David A. Johnston

Yeah, she knows that we now have a lot more of that crazy theoretical money Smiley

I really feel that the MSC price has a long way to go, and regardless of the price I doubt I will sell any at all before the new tax year starts, as I'd rather not have to deal with the tax implications any sooner than necessary. I'm more optimistic about future MSC values than even the wildest speculations I have seen (mostly based on my belief that the escrow funds will lock up most of the MSC float someday), but if we see another 10x of growth, I'd be able to quit my job after selling about 1% of my MSC, which would be pretty hard to resist.

I don't know how soon any of that might happen, but for now I'm not doing anything hasty . . .

Thanks!


So JR,, not to be devils advocate but what will that mean for the value of MSC when you sell 1% ?
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October 29, 2013, 03:02:25 AM
 #1571

So JR,, not to be devils advocate but what will that mean for the value of MSC when you sell 1% ?

It should mean a positive pressure on distribution which in the long term should increase MSC's value. It's up to the market whether or not it wants to buy the coins, is it not? And I do wish to see how far Mastercoin can go with JR on full time...

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October 29, 2013, 03:42:04 AM
 #1572

So JR,, not to be devils advocate but what will that mean for the value of MSC when you sell 1% ?

It should mean a positive pressure on distribution which in the long term should increase MSC's value. It's up to the market whether or not it wants to buy the coins, is it not? And I do wish to see how far Mastercoin can go with JR on full time...
That is how I see it too vokain. If he sells that is actually good for the protocol. What matters is how he goes about selling it and whether it's dumped all at once or done intelligently over a long enough period.

I don't think it will matter if he sells 1% if the demand far exceeds the supply. Also it does make a difference how he sells it and whether or not he dumps it all at once or sells it in a very organized smart way.

If for instance he sells MSC for cash then it wont affect the BTC to MSC exchange rate very much because he'd be selling it to a completely different demographic.

For example, JR could start up a regulated exchange or wait until something like Coinbase comes around to MSC and then sell to Coinbase (they have to get their MSC from somewhere right?). He could sell a little bit at a time so that the price doesn't change and do it quietly. He could for instance sell only when demand far exceeds the supply and only after it reaches the level of maturity where if there is plenty of people trying to buy it.

As long as he doesn't sell before the community grasps the value of what the protocol is then it wont matter in my opinion if he does sell even if its more than 1%. At some point Mastercoin will be in so much demand, far more demand than we see with Bitcoin that there will be a need to match that demand with supply and he's the guy who has the supply.

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October 29, 2013, 03:54:00 AM
 #1573


Paid translation might be a good use of some of the contest funds. If the spec / whitepaper can be translated into as many languages as possible and if more importantly the development documentation and concepts can be translated then it will probably catch fire.


This is PR++

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October 29, 2013, 04:08:56 AM
 #1574

So JR,, not to be devils advocate but what will that mean for the value of MSC when you sell 1% ?

It should mean a positive pressure on distribution which in the long term should increase MSC's value. It's up to the market whether or not it wants to buy the coins, is it not? And I do wish to see how far Mastercoin can go with JR on full time...
That is how I see it too vokain. If he sells that is actually good for the protocol. What matters is how he goes about selling it and whether it's dumped all at once or done intelligently over a long enough period.

I don't think it will matter if he sells 1% if the demand far exceeds the supply. Also it does make a difference how he sells it and whether or not he dumps it all at once or sells it in a very organized smart way.

If for instance he sells MSC for cash then it wont affect the BTC to MSC exchange rate very much because he'd be selling it to a completely different demographic.

For example, JR could start up a regulated exchange or wait until something like Coinbase comes around to MSC and then sell to Coinbase (they have to get their MSC from somewhere right?). He could sell a little bit at a time so that the price doesn't change and do it quietly. He could for instance sell only when demand far exceeds the supply and only after it reaches the level of maturity where if there is plenty of people trying to buy it.

As long as he doesn't sell before the community grasps the value of what the protocol is then it wont matter in my opinion if he does sell even if its more than 1%. At some point Mastercoin will be in so much demand, far more demand than we see with Bitcoin that there will be a need to match that demand with supply and he's the guy who has the supply.

Concern about utility > concern about price.

If he (or anyone) "dumps" >>% to folks that actually are using it, the value will increase.  Use it, or lose it.

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October 29, 2013, 04:38:15 AM
 #1575

While reading about Mastercoin and colored coins I came across this:

(killerstorm replying to dacoinminster about how "thin clients are fundamentally impossible")

Quote
Well, I see a problem: MasterCoin transactions are not linked together in a subgraph, so one needs to scan the whole Bitcoin blockchain to interpret them.

This means that thin clients are fundamentally impossible.
You are going to have either full clients (like Bitcoin-Qt) which download whole blockchain (8+ GB of data now).
Or server-trusting client, which undermines the whole point of having cryptocurrency. (If you are into that, just use Open Transactions: low overhead, impressive features.)

We discussed this topic in this mailing list, see discussion with Paul Snow and 'theory of colored coins'/'advanced color states' threads: you have to confine transactions to subgraph to make it friendlier to thin clients.

(It is hard to say whether it is friendly enough, but at least we have a chance to optimize and make trade-offs to make it acceptable... I don't see how it is possible with global messaging model without making it reliant on trusted servers.)

You can implement many MasterCoin features using colored coin model with advanced color states.

Or you can at least confine special transactions to a subgraph, so thin clients will have a chance to exist until MasterCoin transaction volume becomes high...



Quote
>The block-chain scanning requirements are a lot lower considering that I only need to scan transactions that reference the Exodus Address,

You need to scan whole blockchain to find all transactions which reference the Exodus Address.

Blockchain is a flat list of transactions, they aren't grouped by address or anything. And you need to process transaction to see which addresses it references.

You might use bloom filter feature to reduce traffic, but then you're at mercy of network nodes you've connected to: they might just 'forget' to send you some transactions, which might be used to rob user.

For example, suppose address XYZ has 100 coins. I will first send 100 coins to address ABC, and later 100 coins to address DEF.

Of course, second transaction is invalid, but if DEF's node haven't seen the first one, it will recognize second as valid...

Thus: unless you scan whole blockchain, you depend on honesty of nodes you've connected to.
 
>but thin client type solutions are going to be needed eventually.

I don't think there can be a solution if protocol is simply not designed with thin clients in mind.


Has there been any new developments on if it's possible to make it so that Mastercoin doesn't require trust in third parties? Or will the only people who can directly move Mastercoins without trust will have to have the entire blockchain and Mastercoin tools running locally?

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October 29, 2013, 06:56:16 AM
 #1576

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

Congrats Tachikoma, this is just awesome! It's just incredible how fast this is evolving.
Is the "Create new Selling offer" tool on your site already functional for public use?

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October 29, 2013, 07:24:56 AM
 #1577

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

Congrats Tachikoma, this is just awesome! It's just incredible how fast this is evolving.
Is the "Create new Selling offer" tool on your site already functional for public use?

In theory, yes. I used this myself to create the transactions. It does require some knowledge of bitcoind/qt command-line though, I've written some instructions here if you want to give it a go. Also remember I'm only allowing test Mastercoin transactions. However the Bitcoin you are using to send the messages is always real so be careful you are not using high values for your offers if you decide to create one.

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October 29, 2013, 10:03:40 AM
 #1578

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

Congrats Tachikoma, this is just awesome! It's just incredible how fast this is evolving.
Is the "Create new Selling offer" tool on your site already functional for public use?

In theory, yes. I used this myself to create the transactions. It does require some knowledge of bitcoind/qt command-line though, I've written some instructions here if you want to give it a go. Also remember I'm only allowing test Mastercoin transactions. However the Bitcoin you are using to send the messages is always real so be careful you are not using high values for your offers if you decide to create one.

Really cool Tachikoma - decided to give it a try.  I was able to set up a sell offer no problem: mastercoin-explorer and blockchain

Really gotta get some sleep so didn't actually try to buy them from myself.  Also, I'm a little curious to see how expired offers are handled and represented. FYI - I noticed on your instruction page you indicate "broadcastrawtransaction" rather than "sendrawtransaction" which I'm guessing is what you meant.
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October 29, 2013, 10:06:42 AM
 #1579

I'm happy to report that the first distributed Mastercoin to Bitcoin transaction using the Mastercoin protocol has been done.

Congrats Tachikoma, this is just awesome! It's just incredible how fast this is evolving.
Is the "Create new Selling offer" tool on your site already functional for public use?

In theory, yes. I used this myself to create the transactions. It does require some knowledge of bitcoind/qt command-line though, I've written some instructions here if you want to give it a go. Also remember I'm only allowing test Mastercoin transactions. However the Bitcoin you are using to send the messages is always real so be careful you are not using high values for your offers if you decide to create one.

Really cool Tachikoma - decided to give it a try.  I was able to set up a sell offer no problem: mastercoin-explorer and blockchain

Really gotta get some sleep so didn't actually try to buy them from myself.  FYI - I noticed on your instruction page you indicate "broadcastrawtransaction" rather than "sendrawtransaction" which I'm guessing is what you meant.


Awesome that you managed to do it! It's not that easy.

And yeah that sendrawtransaction thing, I keep typing that wrong when sending my transactions too, will update the doc asap. I also see the reserved value is wrong. I should update that.

Accepting / Buying an offer is harder with Bitcoind since you need to lock all outputs that are not coming from the address you want to buy from.

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October 29, 2013, 01:03:23 PM
Last edit: November 01, 2013, 01:17:07 PM by Luckybit
 #1580

While reading about Mastercoin and colored coins I came across this:

(killerstorm replying to dacoinminster about how "thin clients are fundamentally impossible")

Quote
Well, I see a problem: MasterCoin transactions are not linked together in a subgraph, so one needs to scan the whole Bitcoin blockchain to interpret them.

This means that thin clients are fundamentally impossible.
You are going to have either full clients (like Bitcoin-Qt) which download whole blockchain (8+ GB of data now).
Or server-trusting client, which undermines the whole point of having cryptocurrency. (If you are into that, just use Open Transactions: low overhead, impressive features.)

We discussed this topic in this mailing list, see discussion with Paul Snow and 'theory of colored coins'/'advanced color states' threads: you have to confine transactions to subgraph to make it friendlier to thin clients.

(It is hard to say whether it is friendly enough, but at least we have a chance to optimize and make trade-offs to make it acceptable... I don't see how it is possible with global messaging model without making it reliant on trusted servers.)

You can implement many MasterCoin features using colored coin model with advanced color states.

Or you can at least confine special transactions to a subgraph, so thin clients will have a chance to exist until MasterCoin transaction volume becomes high...



Quote
>The block-chain scanning requirements are a lot lower considering that I only need to scan transactions that reference the Exodus Address,

You need to scan whole blockchain to find all transactions which reference the Exodus Address.

Blockchain is a flat list of transactions, they aren't grouped by address or anything. And you need to process transaction to see which addresses it references.

You might use bloom filter feature to reduce traffic, but then you're at mercy of network nodes you've connected to: they might just 'forget' to send you some transactions, which might be used to rob user.

For example, suppose address XYZ has 100 coins. I will first send 100 coins to address ABC, and later 100 coins to address DEF.

Of course, second transaction is invalid, but if DEF's node haven't seen the first one, it will recognize second as valid...

Thus: unless you scan whole blockchain, you depend on honesty of nodes you've connected to.
 
>but thin client type solutions are going to be needed eventually.

I don't think there can be a solution if protocol is simply not designed with thin clients in mind.


Has there been any new developments on if it's possible to make it so that Mastercoin doesn't require trust in third parties? Or will the only people who can directly move Mastercoins without trust will have to have the entire blockchain and Mastercoin tools running locally?

As of right now to my knowledge you cannot send Mastercoins using thin clients. You have to use either BitcoinQT or Armory. Electrum can receive Mastercoins but cannot send them out.

It's an inconvenience but I don't know if I could say at this moment that it is a problem. In the long term it might become a problem.

Colored Coin isn't always at the disadvantage, because of how it works it does have some advantages. I just think Colored Coin is set up in a way in which it uses a unit of account as the unit of measurement. I think that the unit of account has to be independent and separate from the unit of measurement. And honestly no one has explained how Colored Coin can do derivatives in a way which is as simple to understand and implement as Mastercoin. I'm not saying it couldn't work, I'm just saying you're going to have a very difficult time explaining Colored Coin.

What I mean is that with Colored Coin everything rides on whenever or not there is demand for Bitcoin. The whole system relies on Bitcoin to an extreme extent which I don't think is all that safe. When I asked where Colored Coin will get it's value from people say Bitcoin and that is the problem with it. The value should come directly from the national currencies that are the most stable like the USD or the Euro, or it should come from goods and services. Value should not come from Bitcoin.

The Mastercoin protocol relies on Mastercoins for escrow but since Mastercoins are only used for one thing (to act as escrow and as a unit of measurement), it does not have to be connected in value to Bitcoin or anything else. This independence in my opinion is a very good thing because in my opinion a unit of measurement isn't supposed to be the coin we use as a currency. The unit of measurement is supposed to be the measuring stick for the value of everything we create on top of it. Initially the value of Mastercoins will come from the stable national currencies that people will use to buy Mastercoins with. The stability in the value will have to come from national currencies because Bitcoin has extreme price fluctuations, volatility, and in my opinion isn't very solid to use as an escrow because in a day the value can decrease 50% (we have seen it), while with the USD the value will never increase or decrease 50% in a day.

I don't think Bitcoin itself should be used for that because it will drain resources and make it so Bitcoin developers will eventually have to focus on issues to deal with all this Colored Coin. Mastercoin has it's own resources to develop it and does not demand resources from Bitcoin developers to develop it.

If Colored Coin can work that is great. My opinion is Colored Coin is limited to whatever Bitcoin can do and whatever perception Bitcoin has. Mastercoin is not limited to that, and because of that Mastercoin has a chance to develop it's own economic eco-system which does not rely on Bitcoin. To illustrate if I wanted to deal with Colored Coins I have to buy Bitcoins first or I cannot deal with them. If I want to deal with Mastercoin I will just buy Mastercoins. I currently need a Bitcoin wallet to receive and send from but in the future I might even be able to use a Mastercoin wallet which would mean I don't really have to associate with Bitcoin at all beyond the protocol level.

And that is a good thing because in my opinion if Mastercoin is to be successful it has to be purchased direct with USD. Not with other crypto-currencies and not with Bitcoins. The reason being that you want Mastercoins initially to have its value come from goods and services and not speculation. Since most people work for national currencies it does not make much sense to provide value for Mastercoin with Bitcoins which doubled in price possibly due to a bubble rather than any new goods and services. If people were to purchase Mastercoins exclusively with Bitcoins instead of with the USD or some other national currency then eventually when the Bitcoin bubble pops and the price crashes down again the value of Mastercoins would crash down with it and the value wouldn't at all represent the goods and services or anything other than speculation.

So the best way to buy Mastercoins to promote a stable value is to buy it with a stable national currency. There is plenty of money, trillions of dollars in USD just sitting waiting to be put in an escrow. We should be encouraging people to use the cash under their mattress to buy Mastercoins.
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