[BitFunder] Fenix. Hashing from the ashes of Bakewell.

[FenixPR]

It appears shareholders want to order fresh equipment asap AND have some shares in BTCGARDEN and LABCOIN. The other option that has been suggested by several parties is to place a % of the fund into Coinlenders and/or Ukyo.Loan while we wait to accumulate BTC for a hardware purchase.

We need to tweak these numbers to best suit everyone:

LABCOIN 25%
BTCGARDEN 25%
Ukyo-Loan 25%
Coinlenders 25%
CASH 0%

note: funds placed in loans would be available for the hardware purchase (no long term loans)

and select which unit to order:

https://www.hashfast.com/baby-jet/
http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/shop/
https://www.kncminer.com/

Based on voting it appears we could probably go ahead and invest 50% of the growth fund into BTCGARDEN and LABCOIN. However, we would like to open up the discussion and see if we can nail down all of our upcoming decisions in one fell swoop, based on your feedback. What exactly do you guys want to do?
 

[iCEBREAKER]

let's get that liquid-cooled 500GH baby-jet ASAP!  

this is our savings account, not a venture capital fund.  Play it safe.

I object to labcoin/garden and anything not currently hashing/paying dividends.  NO VAPORWARE PLZ.

AM and 100TH are way more established/profitable.  

limit geographical/political risk, esp. to China.

20% TAT.AM (PRC)
20% 100TH (USA)
20% CIPHERMINE (UK)
20% ukyo.loan
15% coinlenders
5% cash in skunk bids for 1-3

is my ideal.

[Peter Lambert]

let's get that liquid-cooled 500GH baby-jet ASAP!  

this is our savings account, not a venture capital fund.  Play it safe.

I object to labcoin/garden and anything not currently hashing/paying dividends.  NO VAPORWARE PLZ.

AM and 100TH are way more established/profitable.  

limit geographical/political risk, esp. to China.

20% TAT.AM (PRC)
20% 100TH (USA)
20% CIPHERMINE (UK)
20% ukyo.loan
15% coinlenders
5% cash in skunk bids for 1-3

is my ideal.

I agree, this money should be placed somewhere relatively safe and easy to access when there is enough saved for another miner. Coinlenders, ukyo.loan, graet.loan, btc-bond(on btct) are all good ooptions. Spreading it out among several places also lowers the risk if any one of those people suddenly goes under.

[FenixPR]

Coupons are paid at ฿0.00021346 per share.

[Fosca]

I agree not too much VaporWare indeed. Lets invest in best divident/shareprice ratio. 70% defensive, 30% offensive shares (might be vapor ware like soniq or icedrill). Then lets save to invest in hashing when the 'second hashing wars' begin, meaning the second generation of asics to enter the market beginning of 2014.

[iCEBREAKER]

Zero percent vaporware, please!

CIPHER, AM, and 100TH have more than enough exposure to undelivered G2/G3 chips already.

Let's grow safely with PREDICTABLE dividends/interest, instead of speculation on unproven blue sky ventures which may yield windfalls but are far more likely to go to zero.

Fenix needs to accept the boring slow dime, and leave the lucky fast buck to individuals with high risk tolerance and wildly aggressive investment goals.  Our mission here is saving up for a Mini-Jet without losing money, not striking it rich on a long shot.

ice.drill is an acceptable compromise for "offense" as they will issue refunds if the IPO fails, and are backed by the extremely reputable deadterra/cypherdoc.

The conservative 'no more god damn vaporware' approach has worked very well for CreativeX/bASIC.

The 'shut up and take my (gambling) money approach has done nothing, or worse, for LABCOIN/GARDEN suckers investors now trapped underwater in their sinking ships.

20% TAT.AM (PRC)
20% 100TH (USA)
20% CIPHERMINE (UK)
10% ICE.DRILL
10% ukyo.loan
10% coinlenders
10% cash in skunk bids for 1-4

[nameface]

...save to invest in hashing when the 'second hashing wars' begin, meaning the second generation of asics to enter the market beginning of 2014.

Good thinking.

20% TAT.AM (PRC)
20% 100TH (USA)
20% CIPHERMINE (UK)
10% ICE.DRILL
10% ukyo.loan
10% coinlenders
10% cash in skunk bids for 1-4

^ IMO this is starting to look like something most people will agree with. TF's opinion was that 3.5 would've been a good price for AM, but it's now at 3.9 :/ CIPHERMINE and 100TH are on different asset markets...

For simplicity's sake we could go:

30% ICE.DRILL
15% ukyo.loan
50% coinlenders
5% cash in skunk bids for 1

__


I want to discover a clear strategy. I'm pro-baby jet. I'd like to see us hashing with 2 new units ASAP. This is how I see the bitcoin mining game, it's about being aggressive. I played poker professionally for many years and the best wisdom for bankroll management is:

If you have a big bankroll, you must play smaller stakes and sacrifice potential profits to protect it. If you have a small bankroll, it is easy to replace, therefore your best play is always to accept more risk and play higher stakes.

I see Fenix as a small player that wants to be a big player. Therefore, it should make moves. Here are our options:

1. issue ~1000-2000 more shares at ~0.02
2. create Fenix.grow
3. wait until growth fund is large enough to place orders
4. funnel dividends into growth fund

As you may have guessed I think #3 is a better strategy for an asset with larger capital reserves. If we want a chance to be highly competitive in the future, we may have set the dividend % too high. In hindsight I would've rather pipped up and said 50/50 for growth/dividend. We have a pretty good group who share trust, with decent intellectual resources, so there's no point in being wimpish. What are you thinking?

[iCEBREAKER]

I'm thinking 50/50 after depreciation is almost aggressive enough.  If we're not super serious about growth, might as well auction off both units and quit, because millions of Avalons are being fired up somewhere deep below the Forbidden City.  And Bitfury is shipping...! 

Using multiple exchanges is a feature, not a bug.  Say 'no' to single points of failure, bottlenecks, etc.

Disagree with poker game approach, advocate orphan's college fund paradigm instead.

Putting >20% into any single asset is too risky for Fenix (says the guy half in ice.drill  ).

Ice.drill won't pay dividends or appreciate significantly for months, if ever.

AM pays great divs now and is easy to liquidate.

100TH is ramping up and set to explode.  Ditto CIPHER, which also gives LTC/XPM exposure.

Haven't looked at Coinlenders closely but you like it, so will bulk up on that.

Not in favor of issuing growth bonds at this time, but may be convinced with some math and fancy charts, especially if difficulty continues to skyrocket.


49% divs, 51% growth, after expenses and depreciation (one-ups CIPHER  )

15% TAT.AM (PRC, Havelock)
15% 100TH (USA, Picostocks)
15% CIPHERMINE (UK, LTCGLOBAL)
15% ICE.DRILL (USA, Bitfunder)
15% ukyo.loan (USA, Bitfunder)
15% coinlenders
10% cash in skunk bids for 1-4, marketing, slush fund, etc.

[fourd00rgtz]

My vote goes to the status quo, let it earn some freaking dividends/growth before you go planning how to spend it back to 0. Worse yet issuing more shares to pay for additional equipment. I think the wall-street mentality is too strong in the last page of this thread.

Having a known declining income (difficulty) with plans to bump it back up with equipment purchases from the growth fund is a steady, and predictable route which may infuse confidence in the assets future. Investing the growth fund into other assets to which we have no control is essentially gambling with the growth fund hoping it pays off. Go back to the start of bitfunder, or further back to glbse and the loosers outnumber the winners by a large margin, should the "board" start trying to pick winners my 12% will be sold off.

[nameface]

My vote goes to the status quo, let it earn some freaking dividends/growth before you go planning how to spend it back to 0. Worse yet issuing more shares to pay for additional equipment. I think the wall-street mentality is too strong in the last page of this thread.

Having a known declining income (difficulty) with plans to bump it back up with equipment purchases from the growth fund is a steady, and predictable route which may infuse confidence in the assets future. Investing the growth fund into other assets to which we have no control is essentially gambling with the growth fund hoping it pays off. Go back to the start of bitfunder, or further back to glbse and the loosers outnumber the winners by a large margin, should the "board" start trying to pick winners my 12% will be sold off.

Thank you very much for this input. Everybody who has been vocal so far seems to be operating under the premise that through due diligence we will find good investment opportunities, and that we will profit. But it's important to note that historically many Bitcoin assets have not performed well.

For some reason the idea of issuing more shares has been popular, I'm not a strong proponent of this, but I'm not opposed.

Are you simply suggesting we sit on Growth Fund until it is large enough to purchase a unit? That is a sobering perspective.

We could consider:

10% LABCOIN (it's cheap right now)
10% ICE.DRILL
80% Cash on hand

The 20% invested is held as a bit of security by diversification. If we did this, and adjusted the dividend to growth fund ratio to 50/50, we'd have our order in fairly quickly.

[iCEBREAKER]

My vote goes to the status quo, let it earn some freaking dividends/growth before you go planning how to spend it back to 0. Worse yet issuing more shares to pay for additional equipment. I think the wall-street mentality is too strong in the last page of this thread.

Having a known declining income (difficulty) with plans to bump it back up with equipment purchases from the growth fund is a steady, and predictable route which may infuse confidence in the assets future. Investing the growth fund into other assets to which we have no control is essentially gambling with the growth fund hoping it pays off. Go back to the start of bitfunder, or further back to glbse and the loosers outnumber the winners by a large margin, should the "board" start trying to pick winners my 12% will be sold off.

Points taken, but thanks in equal parts to luck and exhaustive due diligence, I've only picked winners thus far.

We've already "earned some freaking dividends" but that halcyon era is rapidly fading.  So let's plan for a turgid future.

Diversification gives us power over the "essentially gambling" aspect because this sector is expansive, not zero sum.

Scared money don't make money.   

[klaus_ffm]

Hi,

lets try some mathematics:

Next week the Difficulty will be 50 Mio. The rate increases approximately 50% per month.
So the Difficulty in November will be 170 Mio. The total amount of BTC our Avalons will mine till November is less than 100 BTC.


No matter if we use 50 % of the dividends or sell 1000 new shares, we will not get enough BTC to buy hardware that makes Fenix sustainable.

In my opinion discussions about investments in other shares are not helpful either. Fenix is not an asset manager. Shareholders can just invest in other shares on her own.

Unfortunately we got the Avalons just 3 months to late. 

We should try sell the Avalons and start with a new IPO to invest in the new generation of miners.

[nameface]

Next week the Difficulty will be 50 Mio. The rate increases approximately 50% per month.
So the Difficulty in November will be 170 Mio.

We are hashing out 15BTC per week right now.
Diff in Nov will be 130. Diff in two weeks will be 50m (source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auya3iRE6az1dDc0UVgwMU52YVpTazVjSHByOGNiWHc#gid=8)

No matter if we use 50 % of the dividends or sell 1000 new shares, we will not get enough BTC to buy hardware that makes Fenix sustainable.

I have the opposite opinion. No matter what we do, we can get enough.

In my opinion discussions about investments in other shares are not helpful either. Fenix is not an asset manager. Shareholders can just invest in other shares on her own.

I am starting to see it this way too. Fenix is about mining. Let's keep it straight.

We should try sell the Avalons and start with a new IPO to invest in the new generation of miners.

I totally disagree. We have a good mining venture, we are hashing, we have cheap power. Either mining is profitable, or it's not.

[tulkos]

I agree that we are a mining outfit first and foremost and should not act too hastily in spreading our investment around. this is Bitcoin, unforseen drama will always be just around the corner.

But If we must put the investment somewhere while we wait for the next gen mining gear it's gotta be low risk and not a new  IPO. Why not BTCINVEST ? it's already diversified around a number of stocks and loans, has a good track record, managed by tradefortress (who has an interest in this fund), and will not require much management on our behalf.

Note: I have a few shares of btcinvest.

[nameface]

BTCGARDEN is toast https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264696.0

As I learn more about the mining game I sense that there really is a lot of smoke and mirrors. We are in a good position, we are hashing, and we want to MINE.

Fun Fact -> If we hadn't paid out dividends, we'd have virtually enough coin to order a baby-jet.

Instead of trying to pass a motion to invest in other companies, or doing a group buy, we could have tried to pass a motion to invest in ourselves.

Personally I would have no problem halting dividends until we have made 1 order.

[bob131313]

Personally I would have no problem halting dividends until we have made 1 order.

agree since first to mine gains the biggest advantage.

[iCEBREAKER]

BTCGARDEN is toast https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264696.0

As I learn more about the mining game I sense that there really is a lot of smoke and mirrors. We are in a good position, we are hashing, and we want to MINE.

Fun Fact -> If we hadn't paid out dividends, we'd have virtually enough coin to order a baby-jet.

Instead of trying to pass a motion to invest in other companies, or doing a group buy, we could have tried to pass a motion to invest in ourselves.

Personally I would have no problem halting dividends until we have made 1 order.

Second the motion to redirect divs until we have a Baby-jet.

Friendly amendment: make it two!   

Also, let's avoid IPOs in China and listen to the people who warned against vaporware (EG me).   

[Fosca]

I also second to redirect divs to purchase mining rig(s)

[fourd00rgtz]

Thread turning around, self investment is better then dilution and gambling.

[strello]

I agree with halting dividends until there is enough in the growth fund for an order for a Baby-jet, unless that turns out to be another pipe dream in the meantime.

Lets put it to a vote.